patrick.net

WookieMan says

https://www.dni.gov/nctc/ftos/hamas_fto.html#:~:text=HAMAS%20emerged%20in%201987%20during,Palestinian%20state%20in%20Israel's%20place

My government has no credibility.

You said Hamas said this. That will be in Palestinian Arabic.

I'm not wasting any time with a government that just poisoned 200 million people with a fake pandemic and has lied to start 8 wars.

WookieMan says

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-hamas

Council of Foreign Relations???????

For fucks sake.

You want to know why you "think" that Hamas has it in their charter (never looking EVER at the charter though) that the destruction of Israel is their goal?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_Hamas_charter#1987_until_2004

As early as March 2004 though (but possibly much sooner), The Washington Institute for Near East Policy, a strong factor in the pro-Israel lobby in the United States of America, had understood the Hamas charter as to be a religiously motivated call for the "destruction of the State of Israel".

That's where you get it from, from a "think tank" (i.e. propaganda group) whose job is it is to lie to you. They "INTERPRETED" it and they get creative about how they "interpret" things.

Be simple enough to quote them, but they don't. I've heard this fucking nonsense for 30 years.

30 years ago how was I to go through and find the charter in Arabic and get a reliable translation?

اليوم، أصبح من السهل جدًا استخدام أدوات الترجمة. لم يعد الأمر كما كان قبل 30 عامًا، حيث كانت تُترجم فقط كلمة بكلمة، ولم تكن لديها القدرة على فهم السياق. سهل للغاية اليوم.

Here's all the goddamned power in the world, and you will never use it.

RC2006 says

Why are they anti-western, why are we in the middle east.

Oil is much cheaper from the Middle East than anywhere else. If we aren't the top customer somebody else will benefit.

We can debate if the effort is worth it, but there are rational economic and geopolitical reasons behind it.

NuttBoxer says

No takers on why we call retaliatory strikes on Israel attacks, but unprovoked targeting of an embassy is explained away? You guys are losing the war for your mind...

It was retaliatory. The strike killed an IRGC General behind the Oct 7th Terrorist Butchery of Civilians.

Also, for years, Hamas and Hezbollah would launch 100s of rockets into Israel. If Israel dropped one smart bomb on Hamas or Hezbollah, everybody would whinge "Why is Israel attacking, just take the rocket attacks, boo hoo. Don't respond to attacks!"

Saudi Arabia and Jordan are now revealed to have shot down the Iranian inbounds, also.

And we now know the reason for Hamas breaking a ceasefire with no valid cause to attack Israel in October: Iran ordered them to in order to create chaos to stop the Saudi-Israel normalization negotations that were advancing rapidly.

You won't hear this from Fuentes, Dawson, PressTV, MintPress, Sputnik, Middle East Eye, etc. They don't give you the whole story because they have a bias (SHOCK! Nooo, they're just Twuthtellers!)

So the ZIONAZI NEOCON KHAZARIANEVILDOERS are indeed correct: Iran doesn't want peace with Israel, or for other Muslims to make peace.

AmericanKulak says

It was retaliatory. The strike killed an IRGC General behind the Oct 7th Terrorist Butchery of Civilians.

How was an Iranian general responsible for October 7th?

Just the sheer fucking nonsense people repeat.

AmericanKulak says

RC2006 says

Why are they anti-western, why are we in the middle east.

Oil is much cheaper from the Middle East than anywhere else. If we aren't the top customer somebody else will benefit.

We can debate if the effort is worth it, but there are rational economic and geopolitical reasons behind it.

True but then we picked the wrong side we should have nurtured and stayed allied with Iran. We should have never let the creation of Israel to happen it was a mistake.

RC2006 says

True but then we picked the wrong side we should have nurtured and stayed allied with Iran. We should have never let the creation of Israel to happen it was a mistake.

I don't think the US should have prevented Israel from being created, however, I think the US shouldn't be fucking lying all the time on Israel's behalf.

The US claimed to be an impartial negotiator for 40 years, that was a lie. They lied to do Iraq and Syria, and both in part because ISRAEL had beefs with those countries. We shouldn't be giving weapons to Israel either.

We had a great reputation after WWII, and Iran and many nations wanted to follow in our footsteps. We screwed over every country that did.

We as a nation have been using intimidation on everybody in the middle east, it doesn't work anymore. It's damned if you do, and damned if you don't. The US will NOT NEGOTIATE with anybody. We haven't done honest negotiation in 30 years. Doesn't matter if Iran attacks Israel or not, the US will attack Iran regardless.

RC2006 says

True but then we picked the wrong side we should have nurtured and stayed allied with Iran. We should have never let the creation of Israel to happen it was a mistake.

We were allied to Iran, until the radical Shi'a Apocalyptics took over the country and took our people hostage. And, the Shah and Israel got along fine also. As for Mossadeq, he was planning to sieze all the oil fields and refineries built with US/UK funds with minimal compensation, AND was talking to the USSR as a hedge against the West. He was a Socialist and wanted to move Iran from Western oriented into the Soviet or at least Non-Aligned camp.

As I mentioned previously, it's hilarious that pro-Ayatollah propaganda calls Christians in the US "Apocalyptic" when the IRGC and Ayatollahs believe the 12th Imam, or Mahdi, will only return if great violence exists in the world. Or they complain about the Shah when in the 80s they sent 1000s of orphans unarmed into Iraqi minefields, and then killed thousands of dissidents AND their children in 1989.

We should be pissed at France for sheltering the Ayatollah.

EDIT: That's 1988. And 3000 is close to the lowest estimate of 2500, which goes up to 25,000.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_executions_of_Iranian_political_prisoners

AmericanKulak says

We were allied to Iran, until the radical Shi'a Apocalyptics took over the country and took our people hostage. And, the Shah and Israel got along fine also.

But you're omitting that we got along fine because the US installed the Shah, through a coup, that deposed a newly formed democratic republic. The Shah is a king, an absolute ruler, but we controlled him so of course Iran and Israel "got along",

The reason Iranian hostages were taken in 1979, is they overthrew the dictatorship the US installed. Operation Ajax was the coup name, and it was planned in the US embassy, which is why the Iranian took over the embassy.

When it was noticed that a religious group could throw out a foreign imposed government, it got copied. So, that's the birth of "modern Islamic terrorism".

US policies NEVER EVER learn from past mistakes. The US attack Iraq, and now it's controlled by Iran. It attacked Syria, and nothing has changed other than the people have been hurt - Syria isn't a huge oil producer. The US has been shouting off their fucking mouths about Iran having a nuclear weapons program, when Israel does.

US foreign policy is just hypocrisy, lies, and fuckups.

So far:

An IRGC Office - NOT the Official Embassy of Iran - in Damascus was attacked. The Embassy is clearly undamaged, complete with a picture of the Ayatollah hanging in front, according to the picture posted above by Reuters. The latter being a media group with a long history of using anti-Israel photographers and photoshoppers, so this is evidence from a hostile witness, IMHO.

The IRGC is a polticial party and considered a terrorist organization by many countries, including the USA. It is an armed wing of the Radical Shi'a Party ruling Iran, akin to the SS or Bashar's Ba'athist "Ghosts" Units. No member of the IRGC, under international law, is subject to diplomatic protection or immunity.

The target was an IRGC General who coordinated the October 7th terrorist attacks that killed 1400 almost all civilians, teenage festival goers and sleepy villagers.

The October 7th attack, planned with at least some input by the IRGC, violated an in-place ceasefire without any of the conditions of that ceasefire being broken by Israel, on a Holiday weekend. Without any advance notice and for maximum surprise.

Iran and Hamas apologists want you to overlook that fact desperately, or are ignorant of it themselves.

The attack was planned BECAUSE Israeli and Saudi normalization talks were making great progress, and Iran wants to isolate BOTH Israel and Saudi Arabia.

As both threaten to restrain expansive Radical Shi'a influence in the Middle East.

The attack was funded by Iran borrowing against the $6B Biden stole from the Persian People and deposited in Qatar, which is Ayatollah-friendly. And a place where de facto enslavement and abusive of foreign workers takes place.

Nothing currently happening would have happened if Iran hadn't commanded Hamas to commit the October 7th Attacks.

If Israeli-Saudi talks, which are continuing, are successful, it will go a long way to lowering the temperature in the Middle East over the long term by a major degree. Disruptors and Expansionists want high levels of chaos from Shipping Piracy to Rocket Attacks to continue, as Chaos benefits their plans.

Despite the predictions of the Pro-Iran/Pro-Hamas Propagandists a few months ago, no US Troops were employed in Ground Combat in Gaza

Finally, it's no accident that the 3-H Club of Hamas, Houthis, and Hezbollah, Iranian-Syrian proxies all, have been suddenly very active from Israel to Yemen, following Biden's bribe of Iran.

Never forget the bombing of IRGC General Suleiman, one of Trump's best moves in the Middle East.

While the Iranians made a quick puppet show of retaliation by firing things ineffectually here and there to tamp down domestic outrage, they then shut the fuck up and behaved for the rest of Trump's Term.

There is no need to be fully isolationist and lose influence of a vital geographic and economically valuable part of the world. Nor is there a need to put tens of thousands of US boots on the ground and be excessively interventionist.

However, sad fact is that as long as America is not 100% autarkical economically, we will always have to send Decatur on a Frigate to slap around some Libyan warlords on the other side of the world now and again. "To the shores of Tripoli".

Just because you don't want to get involved, doesn't mean a Libyan or Houthi Pirate Warlord won't try to sieze your shipping.

Also, "Partisan Girl" or "Syrian Girl", another MENA hater and (EDIT) Bitchute Bullshitter living comfortably and safely in Australia, is getting sued for defamation and will no longer be able to afford her regular Botox Fishlips injections shortly.

Fun fact, before she denied Syria had Chemical Weapons, in 2014 one of her most popular videos is titled "If Syria Disarms Chemical Weapons We Lose the War".

So which is it Dear? Does Muh Bashar the Mighty Lion need to keep his chemical weapons, or is it an evil ZIOLIE that he has/had them?

Oh, and I just found this out, she's a member of the Syrian Social Nationalist Party, whose platform for a Greater Syria encompassing all of modern Syria, parts of Turkey and Iraq and Jordan, all of Lebanon, and all of Israel & PA controlled areas. Sounds very peaceful and non-expansive.

You gotta love these people who bring up some flight of fancy article by one guy in Israel in 1982 named Oded, writing for himself, as proof of "Dangerous Zionist Hegemony" -- while being a member of a NatSoc party whose platform for decades includes expanding their state to encompass pretty much the entire Levant.

AmericanKulak says

There is no need to be fully isolationist and lose influence of a vital geographic and economically valuable part of the world.

No, there isn't, but the more people we kill and the more nations we bomb, the more resistance we create.

It's come to a head now. Iran just showed they can place a missile anywhere they want in Israel.

There are 650,000 active duty people in the Iranian military. Israel is 10 million people.

AmericanKulak says

Just because you don't want to get involved, doesn't mean a Libyan or Houthi Pirate Warlord won't try to sieze your shipping.

The Houthi are attacking only ships that are controlled by Israeli corporations and are doing trade with Israel.

Finally, if you think I'm bullshitting about the SSNP's aims and goals, here is their endorsement of the Oct 7th attacks, a call to end the Abraham ("Ibrahim") normalization talks, reversing all agreements already made under them, a call for the PA to join in, and a call for all the Levant to be part of Syria:

The party stresses that the “ square unit ” has become a list that is not removed by enemy arrogance, and that the unification of fronts from Gaza to the West Bank, southern Lebanon and the Golan has become a reality.

The party also calls on the Palestinian Authority to take a responsible position in front of the greatness of the scene, and to stop security coordination in a holistic and decisive manner with the occupation, and calls on all our Palestinian people to engage in confrontation، And immediately join the heroic epic of the resistance.

The party calls on the countries of the world to stand right in support of the Palestinian issue, and calls for stopping all recent normalization talks, and ending the agreements “ Ibrahimi ” signed in previous years،; Adopting a resistant act as the only option in dealing with an enemy that only understands the language of iron and fire.

The Syrian National Social Party declares its absolute readiness, and places the “ whirlwind factions ” on full readiness, and confirms that this is not the time to wait and wait, but the time for serious action to liberate Palestine and our entire occupied lands.

https://ssnparty.org/%d8%a8%d9%8a%d8%a7%d9%86-%d8%b1%d9%82%d9%85-2-%d8%b7%d9%88%d9%81%d8%a7%d9%86-%d8%a7%d9%84%d8%a3%d9%82%d8%b5%d9%89-%d8%b9%d8%b2%d8%a9-%d9%81%d9%84%d8%b3%d8%b7%d9%8a%d9%86-%d9%88%d8%a7%d9%84%d8%a3/

Archive: https://archive.is/xGpw5

Translation via Google translate.

Wow, sounds like a real peaceful party that just wants to be left alone from Zionist interference. Yeah, Zionist existence preventing them from conquering Lebanon and Israel (and by extension, Jordan alone could not stand up to Syria)

It is the second largest party supporting Bashar Assad's government in Syria. In the 1980s, Jordan banned and expelled the party as it's stated goal is the end of Jordan and it's incorporation into Greater Syria.

Socialists, Nat or Int, are masters of Projection.

AmericanKulak says

Finally, if you think I'm bullshitting about the SSNP's aims and goals, here is their endorsement of the Oct 7th attacks,

Syria has been bombed by Israel for years. Not too long ago, Israel landed a missile at the Damascus airport.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20220613-israel-bombs-damascus-airport-to-stop-iran-from-smuggling-weapons-to-hezbollah/

I don't know anything about the internal politics of Syria other than they have been in a civil war for a long time, which the US has been supporting against the Syrian government, but I can understand the enmity Israel makes by also openly engaging in that fight. Israel was caught aiding ISIS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_with_the_Islamic_State

Lebanon has been repeatedly attacked by Israel and quite catastrophically.

Israel keeps creating enemies, it's not a shock to me that they retaliate. I am actually worried for Israel. I predict at least 100,000 Palestinian civilians will be killed, Hamas is supposedly only 40,000 people. Israel denies starvation is happening, but I doubt they'll be able to hide it. If Israel pushes the Palestinians into the Sinai Egypt will retaliate. Population transfers are used as weapons, that was what the Kurds have been REPEATEDLY use for, and they are the PKK.

The Merowe Dam in Sudan is causing problems with Egypt by restricting water flow. It's said to be limiting crop production, which is why Egypt simply cannot take in a million refugees.

AmericanKulak says

Finally, if you think I'm bullshitting about the SSNP's aims and goals, here is their endorsement of the Oct 7th attacks, a call to end the Abraham ("Ibrahim") normalization talks, reversing all agreements already made under them, a call for the PA to join in, and a call for all the Levant to be part of Syria:

You're arguing a losing battle dude with Rich. US is bad, we cause all the problems. Nah, independent nations are just US puppets. You can't have a discussion or argument with that type of person. I know Patrick has met him supposedly, but he's just an anti-American puppet from the West Coast. His reality is not most of the country and he doesn't leave CA. So good luck. Hopefully he doesn't threaten you because you make logical arguments and we don't always agree on topics. It's disagreement on anything with him. I could say my lawn looks great and he'd find a problem. That's what you're dealing with.

Why should we be so afraid of Iran?

Let’s be honest: President Biden and the Democrats want you to be terrified of Iran. And it’s not just on the left. There are plenty of people on the right expressing the same sentiment, though maybe for slightly different reasons.
All we hear is “We don’t want war with Iran, no matter what.” Well, pardon me for asking, but why not? Why are we supposed to be so afraid of Iran?
Look, I’m not hoping for a war. But do you really think it would be all that difficult for the U.S. to defeat Iran?
If we fight the war the way we should — roll through, destroy their military as quickly as possible and chase their government into hiding or into the arms of the public they’ve oppressed, then leave — there’s no doubt we’d win.
Just as Russia is weaker than we were told, so is Iran. Recall how, when Vladimir Putin invaded Ukraine, we expected to see the world’s second-greatest military roll up Europe’s poorest country like it was a cheap carpet. But it turns out that Russia is so stupidly corrupt that it cannot wage war effectively. Everyone in the power structure is in on the scam, from the lowliest officers selling their military units’ fuel, rations and bullets, to the oligarchs looting the country’s public budget, to Putin himself. Russian military leaders themselves “have estimated that 20 percent to 40 percent of Russia’s military budget is stolen.” That implies a theft of as much as $34 billion per year, or more than the entire state budget of 29 U.S. states.
Iran is no different than Russia in one respect. It is judged as having a strong military based on what the intelligence community thinks the Iranians spend on it, and the fact that it fought Iraq to a stalemate four decades ago. But then, Iraq’s military was also supposedly formidable. It turned out not to be so — in fact, defeating Iraq’s military was the easiest part both times we invaded.
There is no reason to think we couldn’t neutralize Iran’s military just as easily, at least before it develops a nuclear weapon. I’m not saying we should invade, but we should be doing things that puts that fear into the back of Iranian leaders’ minds.
Ronald Reagan’s strategy of “peace through strength” worked not because of the peace part, but because of the strength part. The credible threat of severe consequences is one heck of a strong incentive to avoid bad behavior.
War is an inherently destructive activity. In principle, peace is always in everyone’s interest. But that ceases to be the case when peace requires turning a blind eye to so much aggression. Between its participation in the October 7 terrorist attacks, its nearly 200 attacks on our own bases in the time since, its attacks on Red Sea shipping and its massive aerial attack on Israel over the weekend, Iran has arguably already crossed the threshold of what we can afford to ignore.
The Biden administration seems content to protect Iran from consequences, even to the point of ridiculously denying Iranian involvement in October 7. Biden’s top priority, higher even than peace, seems to be a deal with Iran. But all of his denial is becoming unsustainable as Iran tests America’s limits.
Today, even a simple word of support for anti-regime protesters in the streets of Tehran would go a long way. We should really do more than that by actively supporting them.
Consider that Israel’s Islamic neighbors not only allowed Israel to use their airspace to defend itself from last weekend’s Iranian attack, but some of them actively participated in protecting the Holy City. That shows just how hated Iran’s regime has become in the region. It is making allies out of sworn enemies.
A strong president — one more concerned with the best interests of the country and world than his chances of winning Michigan — would by rallying opposition to Iran and squeezing its terrorist government from every conceivable angle. But we don’t have that president. Some other world leader will have to step up.
Until Iran develops a nuclear weapon, something Democrats seem desperate to make happen, it will be a paper tiger, only capable of inflicting damage through terrorist attacks by its own forces and the paramilitary groups it funds throughout the Middle East. Once Iran gets the bomb, that changes forever. So why are so many people helping the mullahs buy the time they need?
Derek Hunter is host of the Derek Hunter Podcast and a former staffer for the late Sen. Conrad Burns (R-Mont.).

https://apple.news/AzndC175oQd-Qru3UsUZbXA

RC2006 says

They are a religious state

I disagree.Zionism is not a religion, it's an extremist ideology leveraged by the people who normally gravitate to government to justify the atrocities they commit. Is Israel unique is this behavior? Only in that they hide behind religion as a pretense more than most.

https://thecradle.co/articles-id/24419

US makes failed bid for Iran to allow 'symbolic strike' by Israel. An Iranian military security official has revealed exclusively to The Cradle that the US contacted the Islamic Republic, asking the nation to allow Israel "a symbolic strike to save face” following Iran's retaliatory drone and missile barrage this weekend. He added that Tehran “outright rejected” the proposal, delivered by mediators, and reiterated warnings that any Israeli attack on Iranian soil would be met with a decisive and immediate response. The reply was delivered directly to the Swiss envoy in Tehran by officials from the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) and not the foreign ministry.

WTF? Is the war all just theater?

Patrick says

WTF? Is the war all just theater?

Much of it is.

The Iranian strike that overwhelmed the Iron Dome didn't kill anybody, because Iran warned Israel in advance.

Basically Iran was proving to Israel the can get through Israeli defense even when the targets were announced.

Iran has a lot of weaponry, it's easy to exhaust the Iron Dome and just level all of Israel. Of course Israel has Dimona as well...

It's not uncommon to warn in advance. The US does it. Part of it is to make a population's government believe iit is "striking back".

Patrick says

WTF? Is the war all just theater?

LOL! A good bit of it. However, it's anybody's guess what is real, although there is reality in there outside of the stage management. Ever since the Hatfield and McCoy accusation exchanges of atrocities, many staged by both sides, I stopped wasting time on the blood and revulsion porn and the mutual accusation porn. Fuck all 'sides' on that issue.

The tit for tat retaliation stuff is programmed to go up and down the escalator for the hidden bosses. The only thing that seems a thing is that Iran demonstrated that it can get its targeted bombs into Israel and they have no meaningful defense. So, what is the next 'planned' escalation?

Ceffer says

So, what is the next 'planned' escalation?

Nothing. Gaza will just become worse, I don't think.Israel will expand into Israel, I expect maybe 50,000 more deaths in Gaza from starvation of whatever.

And it will be back to detente.

If Arab nations were serious about ending Israel, they would be gone. If there is a serious attack, it's world war 3 in the open.

Patrick says

WTF? Is the war all just theater?

@Patrick, I said this elsewhere.

Just like when Trump panged Suleiman and the Ayatollahs fired some ineffectual shit back and then STFU for the next few years.

Asiatics saving face, Kerry trying to preserve the $6B Iran Bribe, etc.

NuttBoxer says

I disagree.Zionism is not a religion, it's an extremist ideology leveraged by the people who normally gravitate to government to justify the atrocities they commit. Is Israel unique is this behavior? Only in that they hide behind religion as a pretense more than most.

It's just Hebrew nationalism. Literally all that has to happen is one subgroup of Arab Muslims has to accept that they will only control 95% of the Levant, not 100% and all the violence goes away.

Unlike with Ba'athists and SSNP who want the Whole Levant ruled from Damscus in their official party platform.

If you read the OT, the return to Israel is a major theme of the book. It's also in the NT. And it's a precondition Jesus shared with Paul before the end (Romans 11). If a Jew isn't a Zionist, he's not a real Jew. It's like claiming to be a Christian who doesn't believe in the Return of Jesus.

AmericanKulak says

It's just Hebrew nationalism.

Yeah, like German nationalism, based on racial identity, not religion.

But don't dare confuse a Zionist with a Nazi..

AmericanKulak says

If you read the OT, the return to Israel is a major theme of the book.

True, but Israel is a secular state, so that kinda contradicts the religious aspect of return to Israel. Maybe that's part of the reason that Hassidic Jews are often opposed to the state of Israel.

I saw an Israeli documentary once where settlers and previous landowners were introduced and asked to make their points politely. A Palestinian pulled out his great grandfather's deed for his land dating back to Ottoman times. The Jew who got his land then pulled out the Torah and pointed to where it says "God gives you and your descendants this land forever." I laughed. How do you argue with that?

AmericanKulak says

If you read the OT, the return to Israel is a major theme of the book. It's also in the NT. And it's a precondition Jesus shared with Paul before the end (Romans 11). If a Jew isn't a Zionist, he's not a real Jew. It's like claiming to be a Christian who doesn't believe in the Return of Jesus.

Every single reference to Israel's return to the land in the OT is conditioned upon their return to the God of Israel in faith and obedience. Being that they never fulfilled God's clear commands via His prophets, the Biblical land was never given to them. What they have now is what they have obtained through terrorism and international politics. Furthermore, Jesus actually said to them in John Chapter 8 that if they didn't believe in Him, they didn't believe in the Father who sent Him, so by their rejection of Christ they remain in disobedience to the Father.

Check out the history of Zionism. It is a secular/political movement that rejects Judaism, precisely why there are so many Orthodox Rabbis and Orthodox Jews, not only in Israel, but around the world, that reject the legitimacy of the secular state of Israel.

RayAmerica says

What they have now is what they have obtained through terrorism and international politics.

Are you talking about Ireland and the IRA? Did they set off Candy Cane bombs that delivered sugary treats to the Black and Tans? Did their pub bombings explode Newcastle Brown Ale into everybody's glass? How about the Founding Fathers and the American Revolution? Most States are born in Blood - except Levantine Arab States, which are creations of European Powers ;)

What do you think happened in the Bible? You think hearts weren't hardened or softened and foreign leaders and armies were made to stumble?

How a half dozen Czech Messerschmidts with inferior engines (not the ME-109 original engines) take on dozens of Spitfires over weeks and shoot them down? Miracle.

And God does forgive sin and restore the imperfect.

God isn't a liar, so his promise to Abraham is eternal and UNconditional.

RayAmerica says

Check out the history of Zionism. It is a secular/political movement that rejects Judaism, precisely why there are so many Orthodox Rabbis and Orthodox Jews, not only in Israel, but around the world, that reject the legitimacy of the secular state of Israel.

I know all about it. It dates back to the Old Testament and is a continual thing. Israel isn't going anywhere. Grafted in branches are cautioned against arrogance towards the sons of Abraham. And the prodigal son story has multiple layers of meaning. And The First Shall Be Last. Not "The First shall be totally forgotten"

Both the NT and OT make it clear a precondition to the return is the return of Jesus. It's a miracle.

RayAmerica says

Being that they never fulfilled God's clear commands via His prophets, the Biblical land was never given to them.

Huh? Never?

What did the Judges and King David and Solomon Rule? Wildwood Amusement Park in New Jersey?

What land did Joshua conquer? The Kamchatka Penninsula?

The Macabees ruled nothing when the did away with the Seleucids?

The Hasmodeans didn't issue coinage? They were contemporary with Caesar and Pompey.

What is the Rivers of Babylon about? What did good King Cyrus restore?

I mean, you don't even need the Bible for this, there's archeaological evidence in abundance, as well as written evidence from the Tel Dan Steele to Coins with Judah stamped on them

It's amazing to me that one of the wildest, craziest outliers that nobody even thought was possible happened, isn't some kind of miracle or at least enough to make one wonder.

The last time Israel was a country, and not part of an Ottoman, Mameluk, Byzantine, or Kaliphate Empire was in the time of the first Caesars. There was never a Kalifa Leila the Haughty ruling from Ramallah.

AmericanKulak says

God isn't a liar, so his promise to Abraham is eternal and UNconditional.

God's promise was that Israel would be given to the Jews when the messiah returned. This is what gets the ultra-orthodox into a tizzy, and it's also a contraction that all the early Zionists were atheists, yet you appeal to the god they didn't believe in.

It's just the last European colony because "Jews were a problem" in Europe and Russia, and they were happy to export that problem.

Patrick says

True, but Israel is a secular state, so that kinda contradicts the religious aspect of return to Israel. Maybe that's part of the reason that Hassidic Jews are often opposed to the state of Israel.

A tiny breakaway sect of a sect of a larger school called Neturei Karta are. There's a few hundred of them Worldwide, but they're always trotted out by Pro-Pali people. Just like you can always find a few whingey UMCs or Unitarians saying that the Bible is Trans or some "Catholic" Liberation Theory PhDs to say that Maduro or Castro is a Hero.

As for religious state, Mixed bag here. Israel uses the Ottoman Millet System, so different Religions/Ethnicities are under their own civil or personal code for marriages, inheritance, etc. Israel definitely has a religious body that makes rules for JEWS on the Sabbath, on Marriage and so forth. Arab Muslims have their own. Circassians have their own. Druze have their own.

It's also BOTH a Jewish national homeland and a democracy by law, where "Jewish" can be both or either ethnic and religious.

Contrary to the "Global Telepathic LizardJew Marching in Lockstep" Theory, there is great tension in Israel about the Jewish Millet System and the influence of the Rabbinical Council on Marriages and on Sabbath Laws, which lean towards extremely strict interpretations. One of the reasons Bibi was caught flatfooted was the war over the High Court, Israel being the only Country in the World with BOTH an unwritten constitution, and a nepotistic self-selecting Supreme Court, and having a law code that is part Administrative, part British Common Law, and part Ottoman.

As for having an official religion, so do most of Israel's neighbors like Jordan and Egypt and most Arab and Muslim countries like IRAN have an official religion. Iran is SHIA Islam, with Sunni Islam NOT being an official religion. Syria under the Alawite-Shi'a alliance loathes and officially and unofficially targets Sunnis in particular.

Patrick says

I saw an Israeli documentary once where settlers and previous landowners were introduced and asked to make their points politely. A Palestinian pulled out his great grandfather's deed for his land dating back to Ottoman times. The Jew who got his land then pulled out the Torah and pointed to where it says "God gives you and your descendants this land forever." I laughed. How do you argue with that?

Well, it's true. Esau is on the wrong side of the Dan. It doesn't matter if a Turk or Syrian sold his dad a bad deed ;)

BTW, if his Arab great granddaddy didn't flee, he'd be on his land as all the Israeli Arabs that didn't flee are currently on their lands. Of course, 80% of Palestinians were landless laborers and their names prove their origins: Al-Masri, or "The Egyptian" ... Al-Kurd ... obvious. The majority of the founders of PLO were born in Beirut, Damascus, or Cairo, including KGB Agent Aref, aka Yassir Arafar

Is it possible Arabs in Palestine are the only place and people in the world not in the Paleolithic where 80% of the population owned 80% of the Arable Land?

As for the "SETTLERS" the Palestinians are whinging about in the Jerusalem area, guess what they have? Land deeds from the Ottoman and Mandate era. The Arab Legion expelled the Jews from Jerusalem in 1948 and said "I spit on your land deeds".

"No, You must be held to one high standard, while I, the Father of Victory and the Nutmeg of Consideration, shall be held to a Lower One" - Palestinians

Land Rights

Finally, it's not a good idea for Americans, Aussies, Canadians to start this argument about previous inhabitants and who has the land rights... because if this argument is used in a legal court or as a causus belli to dismantle Israel...

Everything was done to prevent a war. The Arabs refused so much as a few miles radius around Tel Aviv. Finally, the UN recognized the Israeli state almost a century ago.

Every single Arab state in the Levant was a land grant from Britain or France at the end of WW2, which they conquered in WW1 for the Ottomans. Most Arabs, including the Grand Mufti of Jersualem and Hitler Pal Husseyni, did not want Palestine. They wanted a Kaliphate based in Damascus for the whole of the Levant.

Every single state in the Levant is a Gift from the !!!FOREIGN POWAS!!! Except Israel, which was born in blood when these new nations tried to annex the area, the both the Jordanians and Egyptians siezed a huge chunk (to lose later). 0% - NONE - of the Mandate was ever granted to Syria, Jordan, or Egypt.

And Finally:

In any case... VAE VICTIS and Possession is 90% of the Law!

WookieMan says

You're arguing a losing battle dude with Rich. US is bad, we cause all the problems. Nah, independent nations are just US puppets. You can't have a discussion or argument with that type of person. I know Patrick has met him supposedly, but he's just an anti-American puppet

@WookieMan - when I ask you pointed questions about your reasoning and logic, you NEVER respond. Why? This is why I suspect you are seriously inhuman, possibly an AI, a propagandist, or an NPC. Where is my error in reasoning?

All you are doing is strawman me. You must know this.

The US is fucking up. Does anybody think it was a good idea to bomb Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Syria, Yemen and Somalia?

Do you?

What has this done for the country? Can you name anything positive out of this?

It's cost US 10s of trillions of dollars, it's created a refugee influx into Europe and the United States. Is this good? Do you approve of this?

I see my country not just fucking over other nations but fucking us as well.

Is there an error in my logic?

No. But it's real easy to say "duh, he's just an anti American" - this is just a smear, an ad hominem attack. These policies, foreign policies, have enabled national surveillance, increased taxation, the TSA, the end of national news media, and censorship

You OK with this?

If you are, who is the anti American? The constitution is sacrosanct to me, it doesn't appear to be to you. People like you give up everybody's rights because it's so easy. How bad will it get before you're dead after all?

You won't even talk about, even think about it. They don't hate us for our freedom and I don't oppose this criminal government because it's good. I oppose it because it's evil. It's obviously evil. I may be an atheist, but I can recognize a clear force of evil and good. Which do you support?

You know this. Who else would run a child prostitution ring using Jeffrey Epstein? Lie us into wars, open illegal immigration, promote transgenderism to KIDS, make a month of LGBTQ celebration, and on and on? I can give you many more examples, you'll just ignore it, pretend you never read it or saw it.

You can connect the dots. Maybe our government is working not on behalf of anybody other than themselves, and they are sadistic as well, and enjoy hurting people? When there has been some sort of major fuckup in the nation, when is the last time the government came into help? Not Maui, not Palestine Ohio, not Flint Michigan. When 9/11 happened they claimed the air was safe, almost all the first responders are dead now because it was completely contaminated with asbestos - that could have been easily avoided with a couple hundred dollars of protection. Billions of dollars spent, and they just sent them off to their death. They are obviously evil. You can chalk it up to incompetence until you NEVER see competence, and when it the last time we saw that? Remember the kidnapping of Gretchen Whitmer? They were all FBI and one guy that was mentally slow and ill that was set up in that group.

But you object to me pointing this out and wanting to change it.

You can't fix a problem until you admit the problem exists. And you won't, ever. Your responses are ALWAYS an adhominem attack not a critique of my reasoning or thinking process. If I'm wrong, it should be easy to demonstrate it. You'll smear anybody that does think or reason though. Takes some courage to do this. It's no different than saying the mafia is engaging in a crime.

Sidebar: Abrahamic Covenant is UNconditional

God’s promise to Abraham is considered unconditional in several aspects. The primary unconditional promise is found in Genesis 12:1-3, where God tells Abraham that He will make him into a great nation, bless him, and make his name great. God also promises to bless those who bless Abraham and curse those who curse him, and ultimately, all peoples on earth will be blessed through him.

Another significant unconditional promise is the Abrahamic Covenant, which is detailed in Genesis 15 and 17. In this covenant, God promises to give Abraham and his descendants the land of Canaan as an everlasting possession. This promise is reaffirmed multiple times throughout the Bible, including in the book of Jeremiah (33:25-26) and Psalms (89:30-37).

While some aspects of God’s covenant with Abraham can be seen as conditional, such as the Mosaic Covenant given to Israel in the Exodus, the core promises made to Abraham are generally considered unconditional. These promises are taken literally and are still believed to be fulfilled today.

AmericanKulak says

God’s promise to Abraham is considered unconditional in several aspects. The primary unconditional promise is found in Genesis 12:1-3, where God tells Abraham that He will make him into a great nation, bless him, and make his name great. God also promises to bless those who bless Abraham and curse those who curse him, and ultimately, all peoples on earth will be blessed through him.

Please cite the Biblical versus you are referencing so I can inspect them.

AmericanKulak says

Jeremiah (33:25-26)

25 This is what the Lord says: ‘If My covenant for day and night does not continue, and I have not established the fixed patterns of heaven and earth,
26 then I would reject the [b]descendants of Jacob and David My servant, so as not to take from his descendants rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But I will restore their fortunes and have mercy on them.

AmericanKulak says

Psalms (89:30-37)

30 If his children forsake my law and do not walk according to my rules,
31 if they violate my statutes and do not keep my commandments,
32 then I will punish their transgression with the rod and their iniquity with stripes,
33 but I will not remove from him my steadfast love or be false to my faithfulness.
34 I will not violate my covenant or alter the word that went forth from my lips.
35 Once for all I have sworn by my holiness; I will not lie to David.
36 His offspring shall endure forever, his throne as long as the sun before me.
37 Like the moon it shall be established forever, a faithful witness in the skies.”

Hardly anybody looks up anything. You can just as easily say the Jewish people broke their covenant with God. Well, atheists founded Israel. Would that be violating the covenant?

And this is all predicated upon the belief their particular god, is real, and all powerful and is ABLE to keep its promises.

richwicks says

The US is fucking up. Does anybody think it was a good idea to bomb Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Syria, Yemen and Somalia?

Do something about it. I avoid nothing with you. I'm doing my part in the real world and not the internet.

richwicks says

It's cost US 10s of trillions of dollars, it's created a refugee influx into Europe and the United States. Is this good? Do you approve of this?

And what are you doing besides whining?

Get some meds chief. This is getting annoying at this point and I've only ignored bots.

Kulak:

You make a lot of great points. I’m starting to realize that the purpose of WW2 from God’s perspective was likely all about Israel and giving them both an opportunity to return to their homeland and an opportunity to repent and finally believe the gospel. God promised in Genesis that the land of Israel was given to his descendants for all generations. WW2 was the development needed to get the Jews back to the land promised to them by God.

If people have a problem with that, what they really have is a problem with God.

WookieMan says

I've only ignored bots.

Time to start ignoring the mentally ill as well.

Patrick says

AmericanKulak says

If you read the OT, the return to Israel is a major theme of the book.

True, but Israel is a secular state, so that kinda contradicts the religious aspect of return to Israel. Maybe that's part of the reason that Hassidic Jews are often opposed to the state of Israel.

I saw an Israeli documentary once where settlers and previous landowners were introduced and asked to make their points politely. A Palestinian pulled out his great grandfather's deed for his land dating back to Ottoman times. The Jew who got his land then pulled out the Torah and pointed to where it says "God gives you and your descendants this land forever." I laughed. How do you argue with that?

The OT return was fulfilled, see Nehemiah. But as Ray points out, God set conditions on His promises to the Hebrews. This is why the land was taken from them by Assyria and Babylon.

The current state of Israel was founded by Zionists with the help of England and the Rothschild's. It's about as religious as George W Bush...

AmericanKulak says

And God does forgive sin

That is so unBible like. In the Bible, God NEVER forgives. Someone must pay for every sin, no exceptions. Jesus was the whipping boy because someone had to pay, as Jehovah himself does not forgive.

Here is an interesting passage from the 8th. chapter of the Gospel of John describing a discussion that Jesus had with Jewish 'believers' that claimed that Abraham was their Father: (The entire chapter really needs to be read in order to get the full gist of this)

Jesus had just forgiven the woman that was caught in adultery. He then enters the "treasury" of the temple, where he declares his relationship with the Father. He is then confronted by Jewish 'believers' that came to believe in him (or so they thought):

30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.

50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.