patrick.net

Bap33 says

it seems that the socialized medical system removes the need for each end-user to compete for services with their own earned income. it seems like that will result is no wage earner market forces to set the price scale for services rendered. How will price scales be created for provider payments?

atritium says

Decisions formerly made by millions of people in consultation with their doctors will now be made by committees.

What country do you guys live in? I live in the USA. People have private insurance, where decisions are made by committee, though based on profit considerations, not on public health considerations. The interests of you and the committees at your insurance company are very much in opposition.

You guys are seriously going to negotiate your medical fees for a catastrophic illness or injury, and pay out of pocket? You're going to save up enough money for that, even if you likely will not need it?

You guys do not seem to understand the concept of insurance.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/frazer.asp

MarkInSF says

What country do you guys live in? I live in the USA. People have private insurance, where decisions are made by committee, though based on profit considerations, not on public health considerations. The interests of you and the committees at your insurance company are very much in opposition.

Either that, or it's made by a case manager with a year or two's experience, sitting in a cubicle, waiting for five o'clock so she can meet the girls for a drink. She is required to deny at a certain rate.

Bap33 says

it seems that the socialized medical system removes the need for each end-user to compete for services with their own earned income. it seems like that will result is no wage earner market forces to set the price scale for services rendered. How will price scales be created for provider payments?

I'm 100% positive that Warren Buffet pays the same price that I pay for health care. Some market forces at work there.

I didn't see anything in the healthcare bill that I liked, so I'm opting out. I suppose nobody will have a problem with this so long as I continue to pay my insurance premiums. Well, guess again. I can't in good conscious be forced to pre-pay for drug companies, trial lawyers and health insurance companies, and neither should anyone else.

thunderlips11 says

I have a great way to fund it - get rid of Medicare Part D. Why should we subsidize medicine for the richest segment in America, who never contributed anything towards the new increased costs?

You're absolutely correct. Let's spend all the money in the world caring for the elderly in hospitals, nursing homes, rehabs, etc and then not pay for medications to sustain their health. That's gonna save lots of money. What did all those frigging old people do for us anyway?

It's not like they built our society, including our roads, buildings, technology, etc. They certainly never contributed to their Medicare, never paid into Social Security... they should all die in excruciating pain from easily treated diseases and shouldn't be allowed to spend our hard-earned money.

While we're at it, we should immediately stop unemployment benefits, assistance to the poor, and every other social service program. Stop taxing people's income, and put meters on their cars so we can charge by the mile.

Tenouncetrout says

Libs how does it feel to be on the wrong side of History?
This Bill is one Republican administration away, from being nullified and undone.
I wonder how many Federal law suits will win against this SHAM?
It’s wrong on every level, and is NOT health care. Well for the few that get it on a free ride. And if I wanted to be to be a free loader and not provide for my family, or more likely by chance thanks to this bill, I get it for free.
This legislation is OPPRESSIVE to the working middle class that is just trying to make it, and not ask the Government or anyone for Nothing.
Just wait until Sarah Palin works all of the hostility toward this plan, into her running platform.
Please Don’t forget, this plan was crammed through, with dishonesty and quick blow jobs for favors. More than 70% of the people were against it, and not one Republican voted for the damn thing.
It has Zero credibility for at least 50% of the American people.
My buddy last night a Diabetic, was ecstatic, jumping up and down yelling “Yippie” getting short fused by my lack of enthusism, then I asked him.
Right now your on your wife’s insurance plan, which she has a some government job. She hasn’t been there that long mind you. How will you feel, when you wife loses that job. And you are on the hook, for the full payment? I suspect if this doesn’t reverse, companies will start opting out of paying, and let the impetus default to their workers for professionals making 75K or more.
Will you be as gun ho, when you are forced to $1800 a month for your own insurance, by this law?
He laughed and said it will be more like $3500 a month at least for me I’m a diabetic on insulin.
Then he started this whole thing, well this is a start, they will work on it.
Silly Rabbit tricks are for the insurance companies, it was not the “Medical Patient Lobby” that descended on Washington and entrenched them selves there from start to finish of this legislation. It was the Insurance company. This bill is a Boone for them.
But rest assure, my friend was not ready to hand over half of what he makes to the insurance companies.

Thanks for providing the arch-conservative view once again. The Republican party is now the party of angry white America. Would you also like to send all Mexicans back to Mexico, enslave Blacks and put the Japanese in concentration camps while you repeal this bill?

elliemae says

Tenouncetrout says

There would be no need for INSURANCE with is the ROOT of all America’s healthcare problems.

You’re right. This could have been done simpler and easier. But it’s a step in the right direction. I’m frightened of hurting myself as I hop on, or off, my soapbox - Healthcare should never be an option.
I’m continually impressed by the system. Ellie recently had an MRI and the auto insurance company will receive a bill of $290.00 for the doc to read the films. Had the health insurance been billed, it would have been less than half of that. Billed charges vs. actual charges, etc. The MRI will be over $1,000; same thing. If health insurance paid it would be substantially less paid out.
The system needs an overhaul. It’s been getting worse over the past 30 years - and now we’re making baby steps. It’s something.

@ELLIEMAE @TENOUNCETROUT @BAP33 @NOMOGRAPH @RAYAMERICA @KEVIN @TROY

Someone on these threads mentioned that we would all be better off if we were not using our health insurance for routine checkups and likened health insurance to car insurance. In which, we ought not to use it unless we have an emergency. My wife, who works for a major health insurance provider made mention this would not work simply because routine checkups cost $400-$500 at some doctor offices. Which I agree, seeing that I would have to pay $150 for a checkup at my doctor so I dare imagine how much it would cost to perform an MRI on my torn meniscus in my knee. With our vehicles we only tap into our car insurance when damage ocurrs and we foot the bill for all other preventive maintenance.

Do you see using health insurance in a similar fashion to car insurance being a feasible option?

@Trout

What is wrong with this:

• Closing the Medicare prescription drug "doughnut hole" by 2020. Under current law, Medicare stops covering drug costs after a plan and beneficiary have spent more than $2,830 on prescription drugs. It starts paying again after an individual's out-of-pocket expenses exceed $4,550. Senior citizens stuck in the doughnut hole this year will receive $250 rebates.

• Raising the threshold for imposing the "Cadillac" tax on expensive health insurance plans to coverage valued at more than $10,200 for individuals and $27,500 for families. The tax won't kick in until 2018.

• Imposing an additional 3.8 percent Medicare payroll tax on investment income for individuals making more than $200,000 a year and couples making more than $250,000 a year.

• Eliminating the "Cornhusker Kickback," which gave Nebraska a special exemption from all new Medicaid expenses. The federal government will instead assist every state by picking up 100 percent of the costs of expanded Medicaid coverage between 2014 and 2016, and 90 percent starting in 2020.

• Reducing the fine for individuals who fail to purchase coverage from $750 to $695.

• Increasing the fine on large companies failing to provide health coverage for workers from $750 to $2,000 per employee.

Let alone a lot of problems with Obamacare.........we SIMPLY can't afford it! Don't buy in the phony CBO's estimate of savings over 10 years with accounting fantasy - there is no credibility to their assumptions. You watch - in 10 years it will likely be a $1 T plus debt hole.

This year alone we have a $1.5 T annual debt. That's $5,000 for EACH of you. Are you not scared? What about the Soc Sec and Medii liability of $75 T? Will this be ever paid off? Of course not! Only morons believe it will. The house of cards will surely fall one of these days. It is simple to understand. It is not fear mongering. There will be default and only the Austrian school of economics understands this. What are you doing to prepare for default?

wcalleallegre says

What about the Soc Sec and Medii liability of $75 T?

Social security is taken care of through 2040 or whatever thanks to its $2.5T holdings of government debt that represents the savings of baby-boom FICA payers over the past 27 years.

As for Medicare's multi-trillion unfunded future liability, taking care of old people isn't that capital-intensive so we're either going to have to cut a lot of profit out of this sector or abandon Medicare as promised. I vote for the former option.

As for the doomsaying, what you're failing to note is that every dollar of rent we pay for land is surplus that we can tap to pay for actual stuff.

Land prices are still way out of whack compared to actual buying power. As taxes and insurance costs go up, buying power will go down more and home prices will stabilize at lower levels.

This is basic economics -- some Austrians get it, and some don't. It's no accident that land values rose right after the 2001-2003 Bush tax cuts. Raise taxes back up, land values will go down again. Like I said, pretty basic economics.

4X says

Someone on these threads mentioned that we would all be better off if we were not using our health insurance for routine checkups and likened health insurance to car insurance.

This is basically what I have -- $1700 annual deductible. Emergencies are fully covered with $100 co-pay. Negotiated rates with in-network providers ($20 per office-visit to a specialist). I had a medical event last year that cost me $500 out of pocket.

Oh, annual physical is free.

This plan started at $720/yr, now is $900, will probably go up to $1000/yr.

^ heh, after writing that I had to change to a $4500/yr deductible plan since BS premiums went up too much for my health needs. I also dumped their shitty dental plan.

"Coverage:

Would expand coverage to 32 million Americans who are currently uninsured.
Health Insurance Exchanges:

The uninsured and self-employed would be able to purchase insurance through state-based exchanges with subsidies available to individuals and families with income between the 133 percent and 400 percent of poverty level.
Separate exchanges would be created for small businesses to purchase coverage — effective 2014.
Funding available to states to establish exchanges within one year of enactment and until January 1, 2015.
Subsidies:

Individuals and families who make between 100 percent - 400 percent of the Federal Poverty Level (FPL) and want to purchase their own health insurance on an exchange are eligible for subsidies. They cannot be eligible for Medicare, Medicaid and cannot be covered by an employer. Eligible buyers receive premium credits and there is a cap for how much they have to contribute to their premiums on a sliding scale.
Federal Poverty Level for family of four is $22,050"

There's only "one hundred percents" in "ANYTHING", what in the HELL is a 400%, or "133 percent and 400"

This is destine to be the first American seemingly "Progressive" act to be repealed with in the first year of the following administration. How does that feel to realize that?

This is not the Great Social acts of the 20th Century, by no means. This is Corporate dictation, pure and simple, and Shame on this country to mandate any Citizen buy from any Corporate entity.

What a blight on this countries historic progression, ass backwards Indeed!

4X says

@Trout

What is wrong with this:

• Closing the Medicare prescription drug “doughnut hole” by 2020. Under current law, Medicare stops covering drug costs after a plan and beneficiary have spent more than $2,830 on prescription drugs. It starts paying again after an individual’s out-of-pocket expenses exceed $4,550. Senior citizens stuck in the doughnut hole this year will receive $250 rebates.

• Raising the threshold for imposing the “Cadillac” tax on expensive health insurance plans to coverage valued at more than $10,200 for individuals and $27,500 for families. The tax won’t kick in until 2018.

• Imposing an additional 3.8 percent Medicare payroll tax on investment income for individuals making more than $200,000 a year and couples making more than $250,000 a year.

• Eliminating the “Cornhusker Kickback,” which gave Nebraska a special exemption from all new Medicaid expenses. The federal government will instead assist every state by picking up 100 percent of the costs of expanded Medicaid coverage between 2014 and 2016, and 90 percent starting in 2020.

• Reducing the fine for individuals who fail to purchase coverage from $750 to $695.

• Increasing the fine on large companies failing to provide health coverage for workers from $750 to $2,000 per employee.

it all sounds like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTWWOjmXUYM