patrick.net

Generally speaking, avoid it when you have a suspicion about legal issue. :)

I'm confident that the house currently is in good standing after the kitchens and bathrooms were removed. However, after purchasing the property, I'd like to add the kitchen back. I will be renting to close family members so secrecy regarding mail is not a problem. We can also share the same address.

The current owners told me it was because of the partition of the address, and that there were two cable installations both under different names. One to 204-A, and one to 204-B. The owner/landlord occupied the top floor, which is just 204. So there were a total of 3 addresses. I don't see why they'd lie to me. The outlook is that I think I can get it for below market value. I don't see any point of them lying about this especially since there probably are many people out there that will be more than happy to live the whole house to themselves even if they were to pay a higher price. Heck, if they didn't say anything I wouldn't have known that the city asked that they remove the illegal additions.

I guess SF ace answered my question - that it's possible to get caught from having suspicious partitions of the address. Thanks!

Looks like something to avoid

"The thing is I don’t know if I want to believe that that is how the city found out about it. Is that even possible? I suspect that a neighbor reported them."

You will not be able to verify the source of the complaint. It could be a neighbor, an observant city inspector who was in the area, or a driver who has seen 5 cars parked there all the time and is pissed there is no parking or someone is blocking the corner. Or a hundred other sources. Regardless, most complaints can be made anonymously and are confidential.

"There were 2 cable bills and 3 telephone bills all under different names, and they’ve added an address of 204-A, 204-B to the 204 door number on the address"

This sounds like what was found after an investigation.

"I too intend to make an in-law unit downstairs to rent out as well (But obviously not 2 units. That’s just too much.). But I wouldn’t want to get ratted on."

I'm sorry to ask this but is the question here actually 'should I buy a property that will allow me to rent out an illegal apartment? How can I best judge if I will get caught?'

If someone asked ME what I'd do, I'd go to the applicable building department and 1) get a copy of the Certificate of Occupancy: it should specifically spell out what spaces can be legally occupied in the building and 2) find out the zoning classification/what is permissible under it. Sometimes an accessory apt. is legal, sometimes not. If I could not do what I want, I'd move on. Why buy property under a shadow.

Well I know very well it is not lawful to rent out the in-law. In the area I'm in, any unit with a kitchen is not legal. However, I'd say about 50% of the neighbors do it. Anyone with a kitchen downstairs is 100% illegal.

I guess I want to see if the owner's claim of getting caught because of bills was possible because if not, I'd resort to the assumption that someone ratted on them. But if getting caught by bills makes sense, I'll pursue the property. Not being able to rent it out is not the end of the world. It's just that I'd have appreciated to know what to expect.

Vain says

The current owners told me it was because of the partition of the address, and that there were two cable installations both under different names. One to 204-A, and one to 204-B. The owner/landlord occupied the top floor, which is just 204. So there were a total of 3 addresses. I don’t see why they’d lie to me.

They'd lie to you 'cause they want to get out from underneath it. Check with city zoning/building department and they'll be able to help you. It's buyer beware.

I'll check on it if the bank entertains my offer. Will the county actually release this information to me? Me looking into buying the property is a legitimate reason right?

Vain says

I’ll check on it if the bank entertains my offer. Will the county actually release this information to me? Me looking into buying the property is a legitimate reason right?

How to view the property file will depend on how the applicable jurisdiction handles it's records. In New York City, detailed building information can be accessed on the internet:

http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/bispi00.jsp

Some jurisdictions will not have the info on line, but will offer a computer kiosk at the Building Department with (a little/some/all) information on the address. Others may allow the public to walk in and and ask for the property file. Some may require a FOIL request detailing the specific information you want to know, and they will contact you when they gather the information for you. Call and ask how you can look at an address record. There is no charge except for making copies, which you are also entitled to do. No reason needs to be provided as to why you want to look at a file, as it is a public right. Looking at a file does not trigger scrutiny of the property.

I'm sure you know what the BD has on record is the 'Bible', not what a realtor swears has been supposedly grandfathered in or how much an owner says 'they told me it was OK'. If something conflicts, show them the record.

I don't know where the property is located. On the east coast usually the City, Township or Incorporated Village holds these records, but not a county.

Is this the first time you are considering owning a rental unit? Aware of insurance/tenant law issues?

Good information Liz. This is going to be my first home purchase. It is a single family home with an in-law unit that is legal, and 2 illegal kitchens and bathrooms were knocked down due to legality issues. The house is located in the zip code 94015. I intend to redo a kitchen and bathroom on the lower level and rent it out ignoring the legality issue. But this will be a problem if it was because someone ratted on the previous owner.

The previous owner purchased the home with the illegal units already in place. If the home was tattled on, I just don't understand why it took an ownership change before it was reported. But I want to be sure.

Vain says

The previous owner purchased the home with the illegal units already in place. If the home was tattled on, I just don’t understand why it took an ownership change before it was reported. But I want to be sure.

You will not be able to know where the complaint originated. The building file will NOT provide that information, it is confidential in all jurisdictions.

The previous owners hitting dumb luck buying a home with existing violations is immaterial to your future situation. It could have been because it was an all cash transaction, or the paperwork was extremely sloppy. If found out, illegal occupancies do not get more leniency's because the property got away with it before or ownership changed. In fact the violation may well be more rigid and expensive.

Vain says

I intend to redo a kitchen and bathroom on the lower level and rent it out ignoring the legality issue. But this will be a problem if it was because someone ratted on the previous owner.

It will be a problem regardless. The focus on why it happened is misdirected.

I was thinking there may be a chance that it was torn down, but they didn't have money to rebuild it silently. This is a shortsale. They looked like they haven't had sleep for a while.

Check out SF's Department of Building website. You can track permitted work and complaints.
The new owners may have tried to evict a tenant and were ratted out.