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Are High Speed Trains the Transportation for the Future?


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2006 Dec 11, 12:49pm   24,137 views  137 comments

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Paul asks:

For a new thread I’d be interested in hearing thoughts on transportation and how it impacts where we live. One thing I think about is if we could actually have REAL high speed rail in this country, perhaps that would open up more housing choice. It always blows me away when you can’t ride a train into the city center like when Amtrak drops you off in Emryville instead of SF. I thought at one point CA was leading the charge on this topic - http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/

#housing

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1   Peter P   2006 Dec 11, 12:53pm  

No.

The future:

1. Hover cars
2. Teleportation
3. Time tunnel

2   Peter P   2006 Dec 11, 1:23pm  

High speed rail is good only if there are excellent transit networks in all hubs. Otherwise, how are you going to get around?

3   Different Sean   2006 Dec 11, 1:34pm  

4. Where's the personal jet pack I was promised?

Actually, these little beauties are the transport of the future:
www.aerorider.com

High speed trains are all very well, but expensive to build and maintain - both tracks and rolling stock (or mag-levitating stock, as the case may be). Accidents at speed are often catastrophic. Sabotage by disgruntled homeless, terrorists, adolescents and other assorted ne'er-do-wells will always be a problem.

4   Peter P   2006 Dec 11, 1:43pm  

There are a lot of flights between S.F. and L.A. and people manage to get around without their cars.

True.

I remember riding on the EuroStar. It was so fast.

If we do have a HSR, it may still take more than 6 hours (@ 150+ mph) from Vancouver to San Francisco. Flying is still attractive.

However, HSR will be very competitive doing SF to LA.

5   astrid   2006 Dec 11, 1:53pm  

Peter P,

I think you raise a very legitimate argument against high speed trains - it works in Europe and Asia because public transportation is prevalent and cheap. Although train may be faster than driving, people might still prefer to drive the 100-750 miles stretches so you have quick access to their car.

SF is pretty good about public transportation (in addition to being pretty car unfriendly) but it's hard to get around LA without a car. If you fly in from NYC - you rent a car, but the tradeoff would not be so good if you're traveling from SF. There might not be the sweet spot in the US for trains that we see in Europe and Asia.

6   Peter P   2006 Dec 11, 1:58pm  

SF is pretty good about public transportation (in addition to being pretty car unfriendly) but it’s hard to get around LA without a car.

It is still difficult to get around in SF without a car, compared to DC.

IMO Tokyo has the best transit network. Where did their money come from?

7   Peter P   2006 Dec 11, 2:01pm  

This should give us both a high-speed rail and a space program.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NrsAe97lqQU

8   chuckleby   2006 Dec 11, 2:13pm  

I just flew from LA to OAK yesterday. Taking into account all the nonsense with getting to the airport, checking in baggage, security, waiting, delays, arrival, shuttle->home, driving almost makes more sense (and it's almost certainly cheaper). That being said, I just don't see a maglev in our future unless there are dramatic changes in our society. we can't even build a replacement to the eastern span of the bay bridge without billions in cost overruns and multi-year delays. (remember when we were told bridge toll raises were just temporary?)

9   ScottJ   2006 Dec 11, 2:28pm  

Peter P.

I'm not sure if you were kidding about where Japan got the money for the transit system which is currently in place in Tokyo. But in the event that you weren't kidding, think American occupation of Japan after WWII. America wanted to have a military stronghold close to Russia to keep the rising Soviet Union in check, so the natural place to put a military base was in Japan. In order to get the cooperation needed, Tokyo had to be rebuilt and the Americans funded a lot of the construction back then, the transit system was part of that. The designs were Japanes, the money was American. That was one of the only occupations in history that worked out well for both sides. How many articles did you see in the late 80s about who really won WWII? Add that to the placement of Jews in the middle east with American military might and you've got an America that set itself up for capitalist dominance for decades. It's too bad that Americans still think they can come in, blow up stuff and then say let's make everyone think like us and pray to our god. Whatever.

10   Peter P   2006 Dec 11, 2:33pm  

That was one of the only occupations in history that worked out well for both sides.

How about West Germany?

11   Peter P   2006 Dec 11, 2:34pm  

I think the occupation in Japan worked out mostly because of sushi.

12   ScottJ   2006 Dec 11, 2:43pm  

Well,

I didn't say "only" I said "one of the only". I know very little of the economics of West Germany after WWII since I didn't study that part of German history. I only had enough time in school to study a little bit and chase a lot of women (not very successfully mind you) But I do agree that America did get a lot of good food out of the occupation of Japan, sushi being one of them. Now how is it that sushi can de-rail almost any topic? Cuz it's so d*mn good, that's why!

13   Peter P   2006 Dec 11, 2:46pm  

I didn’t say “only” I said “one of the only”.

Oh. Me bad.

Now how is it that sushi can de-rail almost any topic?

What are you talking about? :roll:

14   ScottJ   2006 Dec 11, 2:51pm  

I'm talking about toro, hamachi, mirugai, sake (the fish), shiro maguro and any other good sushi... I just ate, but now I'm hungry again.

=)

15   Peter P   2006 Dec 11, 2:52pm  

I’m talking about toro, hamachi, mirugai, sake (the fish), shiro maguro and any other good sushi… I just ate, but now I’m hungry again.

I had some deep-fried sea urchin. Very interesting. Spongy. :)

16   ScottJ   2006 Dec 11, 3:03pm  

Now that's different, deep fried sea urchin! I'm not a fan of the stuff in the first place, but if it's deep fried I might be able to stomach it. I gotta go, early meeting tomorrow. I will be dreaming of sushi... mmmmmm....

17   Peter P   2006 Dec 11, 3:08pm  

I’m not a fan of the stuff in the first place, but if it’s deep fried I might be able to stomach it.

Actually, I like it steamed better.

18   Peter P   2006 Dec 11, 3:21pm  

Instead of high-speed trains, I rather support automated highways. With computers, vehicles will be able to cruise at high-speed (80mph - 100mph) in tight formations without human errors.

This should greatly improve capacity and eliminate accidents.

19   e   2006 Dec 11, 6:20pm  

This is America.

We drive.

If you don't support that, you're supporting the terrorists.

Here's what Senator Grassley of Iowa said last year:

“You know what? What makes our economy grow is energy. And Americans are used to going to the gas tank (sic), and when they put that hose in their, uh, tank, and when I do it, I wanna get gas out of it. And when I turn the light switch on, I want the lights to go on, and I don’t want somebody to tell me I gotta change my way of living to satisfy them. Because this is America, and this is something we’ve worked our way into, and the American people are entitled to it, and if we’re going improve (sic) our standard of living, you have to consume more energy.”

20   e   2006 Dec 11, 6:21pm  

On a more serious note, there was a great article in the NY Times last year about how they interviewed some Mainland Chinese people - and they were drooling over cars.

Honest to god, they quoted one of the PROCers as saying "Look at Los Angeles. I want to be free like them and have cars."

Cars are an amazing demonstration of the human inability to understand TCO.

21   e   2006 Dec 11, 6:25pm  

From the previous thread:

P.S. Has anyone ever seen a Chinese (or Jewish) homeless person?

Yes. Chinatown, Manhattan. The person was a senior citizen and potentially deranged. But that's just because he was visible.

Remember that there's a big difference between the Visible Homeless (the guys at the UN Plaza on Market St) and the Invisible Homeless. :(

As for Jewish - I know what you're getting at, but at the end of the day, it's technically a religion and not a ethnicity (though in NY it's more of the latter.) So technically you could have a Jewish Chinese homeless person. :)

22   ozajh   2006 Dec 11, 7:21pm  

Hah, the force returns. :D

Now let's see if my problem was related to my change (not by choice) of hotmail a/c.

23   Different Sean   2006 Dec 11, 7:50pm  

someone go and rustle up Robert Coté... let's talk trains...

I wonder whether Japan also got good trains from the fact that not many people had cars, and there are limits on car ownership due to space -- by putting the wealth of the nation through taxation or whatever into building a public transport network before the car mania of Henry Ford could really gain hold -- i.e. the money people in other countries pour into private car ownership and road-building may have gone into public transport. (Of course there's some history there from being late industrialisers in the early 20th C. through to WWII...) Some of these small Asian city-states like HK and Singapore make it very difficult to own a car still... (or is it pwn a car :lol:)

24   ozajh   2006 Dec 11, 7:53pm  

Nope, must have been external.

Anyway: Peter P/SFWoman,

The Eurostar is pretty cool, I admit, and it'll be a lot better once the Brits finally get of their collective butt and complete a decent track into Waterloo.

Even the regular French stopping trains are not bad; I took one this year from Basle to Paris and it actually had more passenger space than the Eurostar/TGV. Maximum speed's only about 90, though.

However,

As DS points out Shinkansen/TGV/Eurostar (to say nothing of MegLev) track is expensive, because as well as the electrical supply/catenary and the track itself, you have to have the entire line completely fenced off to avoid animal collisions etc. Here in Australia that would mean quite a high fence, as if there's one thing a roo can do it's jump. (And in passing, I can tell you first-hand that hitting an adult roo in mid-jump even at 40 miles an hour is no fun at all.)

One other thing you may or may not have noticed is that there are no level crossings at all on the UK/European express train routes. All road/path/canal crossings are overpass/underpass. In fact the Eurostar/TGV's full speed sections are dedicated lines, and don't carry other rail traffic. The Shinkansen even more so, it's a separate line (the name roughly translates as "New Line") and I don't think it even has the same gauge as the rest of the Japanese network.

All-in-all, true High-Speed Rail is likely to remain prohibitively expensive for a country the size of the US unless/until energy costs alter markedly. For here in Australia it's even less viable, given we are roughly the same size as the continental US with only 20 million people.

25   Different Sean   2006 Dec 11, 7:53pm  

no sooner does ajh speak than the same curse strikes me :(

26   Bruce   2006 Dec 11, 8:00pm  

Peter P states the essential case - high-speed rail relies on the quality of urban transit at each stop and terminus.

The DC/NY Amtrack service is in the black primarily because it connects a functioning urban system (NY) with one which has committed to expansion and is becoming reasonably useful. The original Paris/Lyons EuroStar service was established along similar lines.

Cities like Amsterdam and Vienna did not have comprehensive metro networks in 1970 when I first visited them. Today is another matter. It has taken decades and presumably hundreds of millions to transform them into cities where a car is more an option than a necessity, and to make them into ideal candidates for EuroStar links.

It's anybody's guess whether or not any pair or trio of American cities have the intestinal fortitude - and the staying power - to recreate such systems here. The more likely scenario, I imagine, would be one or schemes which are poorly planned, terribly expensive, and which will give the concept a black eye in the public's opinion.

By the time I left the 7ieme, checked in at CDG, flew to the suburbs of Lyons and took a sedan service into the city, I'd pretty much tripled the time and expense (and aggravation) required to do the same by TGV. Would love to be able to do the same Tampa to Atlanta. Not bl**dy likely.

27   Different Sean   2006 Dec 11, 8:18pm  

here's some fun stuff on personal vehicles of the future:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Vehicles/vhehicles.htm

the UQ UltraCommuter under design is predicted to get 535 mpg, by the way...

28   Bruce   2006 Dec 11, 8:19pm  

Well. Triple post must be some kind of record. *blush*

29   Different Sean   2006 Dec 11, 9:30pm  

you mean :oops: heh

except the posting engine thingo is slow at times, it seems to successfully post text very early, then sometimes stall refreshing the page looking as though it's hung. if in doubt, copy the text to the clipboard with Ctrl-C, and refresh the page or restart the browser from scratch, and you will often see it actually has posted...

30   SP   2006 Dec 12, 12:13am  

Brand said:
It spares a daily commute by car, and that is really where most people spend 90% of their yearly driving time.

Wasn't that the whole point? Driving ocassionally is not a problem, if you can eliminate the need for driving in rush-hour every day. Especially when the destination is a cubicle-job that most people hate. What a waste!

SP

31   speedingpullet   2006 Dec 12, 12:27am  

I'd like to put a shout in for the huge, loved, dilapidated London Underground system - the mother of them all.

Many millions of Londoners never learn to drive....what's the point?
Central London's streets are midaeval in size and shape, where a car is more a liability than a help. The 'Tube' is never more than a couple of hundred yards away.
Going on vacation? Hop on any one of the Gatwick/Heathrow/Luton/Stanstead Expresses and get there in under an hour - no need to park you car in unsecure expensive Long-Term Parking, as your car never left your garage.

When I first came to L.A, I would get very strange looks when I said I didn't know how to drive. Even stranger looks when I explained I'd never needed to.
Now I can drive, people still give me stange looks. But for different reasons now.....
................................
IIRC, one of the reasons that L.A has such a useless train system is because the residents of the City of Beverly Hills protested mightily that letting the trains - and consequently the 'hoi-polloi' who live further East and (gasp) may not even speak English - would flock to the streets of BH to harass the residents and loiter/loot on Rodeo Drive.

Apparently, they were amenable to letting the tunnel destined for Santa Monica go under Beverly Hills, but no actual stops in 90210 were allowed.
At some crazy price like 1 Billion a mile, its become overly expensive to tunnel all the way from Hollywood to West L.A, so Beverly Hills effectively stopped all transport plans westward, to where people would actually use it.

Go Beverly Hills (not)! - if there's ever been a city in dire need of decent, fast, affordable public transport, L.A has to be in the top 5 in the world.

32   Doug H   2006 Dec 12, 12:37am  

Sorry.....can't spell. Financial.....

33   e   2006 Dec 12, 12:43am  

Pick a Metro, pick a project, and it’s the same song; different verse….anyone want to comment on the “Big Dig” in Boston?

Until Gov. learns how to award a binding, not to exeed contract, why should taxpayers fund ANY “solution”, especially transportation?

How's that different than any other government spending? Weapons, planes, schools, parks, office buildings, courts - they're almost always chock full of cost overruns.

The Big Dig (which didn't do anything for mass transit) was a few billions over, but if you want to see something really egregious, check out this Coast Guard story:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/09/us/09ship.html?ex=1166331600&en=8806bc180da9e666&ei=5059&partner=AOL

Long story short: Feds try to improve efficiency by hiring contractors to manage project run by contractors. What could possibly go wrong?

34   e   2006 Dec 12, 12:44am  

I’d like to put a shout in for the huge, loved, dilapidated London Underground system - the mother of them all.

Why do they hate our freedom?

35   DinOR   2006 Dec 12, 12:49am  

SP,

That's totally what it boiled down to for me! I wasn't in a cubicle exactly but it was pretty clear that this was all the farther my career was going to go at the bank. This is the case for most of us not in mgmt. by 35 or so. So........ what's the point? I was just burning up valuable resources (not the least of which; my TIME!)

Most of us spend a fair amount of mental energy at work and 98% of brain capacity while actually commuting, on figuring ways out of the rat race! (At least "I" did) The problem for most of is..... once we make that final turn into our driveway and we see our kids playing in the yard and dinner's ready we forget all about "the pain". We're now in "our" world and *not* on "their" time!

About a month after going independent I was at an event sponsored by one of the fund managers at the Benson Hotel in Portland. I saw a lot of familiar faces and was seated with one of the young gals I used to work with. Upon seeing I wasn't wearing my "monkey suit" she said, "Oh, I hadn't heard you'd gone independent!" Well before I could even pat myself on the back she said, "ABOUT TIME!" It's amazing what you can learn from a 23 year old!

Believe it or not half the battle is not just taking "the plunge" it's not beating youself up on a daily basis for all of the years (and effort) you wasted. Ditch the commute, embrace your future! IMHO.

36   Peter P   2006 Dec 12, 12:52am  

My husband loves the TGV because it is very easy to do work on it and is more comfortable than a plane- you can walk around and the first class tickets are not 10x the regular tickets, they are worth purchasing.

As a result the first class ticket is usually sold out.

They also strike a bit too much in France.

37   DinOR   2006 Dec 12, 12:57am  

Doug H,

What's even more shocking about the SkyTram is that locals overwhelmingly rejected it and yet Erik Sten and the city went ahead and did anyway! I have to go up to the VA Hosp. (Pill Hill) on occasion and REALLY, it's not that big a deal! Passing under it on the off ramp to Harbor Drive and Front Ave. (yes I call Front Ave. NOT Naito Parkway) it already has the look and feel of Stonehenge. (As in it's been there for an awfully long time...... but no one can explain exactly why?)

38   Peter P   2006 Dec 12, 12:59am  

For anybody flying this summer to Europe- Air France has a special, business class tickets are only one and a half times the price of economy tickets. I just bought some for July and August, so they go out longterm. One of my friends just got a $259 each way economy ticket to Paris on United for early February as well.

Very attractive. Is it 1.5x full-fare economy though?

39   Bruce   2006 Dec 12, 1:02am  

Thanks, DS, I'll be more patient in the future.

I should say that, having reviewed the flight option, I did take the train. Comfortable, quiet journey - back to Mr. Street (Rue Monsieur) with no fuss the following morning. I'd love to have that option here, but Florida cities are not configured very well for rapid intercity service. Once you've arrived in mid-town Orlando or Miami, your trip has just begun.

40   speedingpullet   2006 Dec 12, 1:15am  

eburbed Says:
Why do they hate our freedom?

Because, like a dog licking its nether reigons, we do it because we can...

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