patrick.net

thunderlips11 says

Shorter Version: A private organization shouldn’t spend their own private money to build their version of a shrine to the Invisble Man in the Sky in downtown Manhattan, because two hicks might get upset and attack some poor shlub who runs a 7-11.

Not me, but I'm not a religious fundamental nut job. Nor am I the Thrill seeker wondering what this button does, pressing the issue of building a Mosque on America's Holy Ground(If we have such a thing).

Well press it and find out Cupcake.

Tenouncetrout says

Well press it and find out Cupcake.

What it's not like History wont have enough to reflect unfavorably on Obama over.

I'll bet Bush comes out way ahead of Obama.

Palin will Undo Obamacare with in her first 100 days in office. Her 100 day report card will based on things she'll actually have done, by then.

Obama is going to fit right up there with Presidents that resided beside Oil Barons and sweat shop Industrialists in the late 1800's and early 1900's.

simcha,

One more question:
You seem very opposed to using the term "sacred" for Ground Zero. Actually, I think the word you used is "sick." You do know that Obama said, "Ground Zero is, indeed, hallowed ground," right? Hallowed and sacred are synonyms. I guess Obama is sick, like me and most Americans.

thunderlips11 says

You completely lost me somewhere. No Clue what you are saying after the first few sentences of your second post.

They've both lost me. Not much they are saying makes sense to me at the moment. And one of Tozt's posts is blank. I'm not sure what that's all about.

that big gold ball built atop of Solomon's Temple is just an example of the Arab mindset. Just imagine those Arab pray stations (like this one they want to build) as their version of the American Iwo Jima flag raising mound scene we have here and there. There is a BUNCH more to this than just another pray station. But, this too is supposed to happn.

Thank you guys for proving Osama bin Laden right. Clearly, America hates Islam and wants to destroy it.

Way to go, dipshits.

The problem with progress of any kind is we get so wrapped up in can we do it, we neglect to ask should we do it.

The fact that some, NYC Mayor Bloomburg, for example - open their arms and embrace the idea of a Mosque in such a sensitive location.

I am far more cynical and ask myselves the "Four W's" of reporting

Who - Who actually wants this built? Are there that many people in the surrounding area who would conceivably use the building as it is now proposed? Who is funding the construction?

What - What is achieved by doing this? What exactly is a "interfaith center" or whatever they are calling it? What other faiths are for and / or against the construction? What "brand" of Islam will be taught in the Mosques?

Where - Well this is obvious. But the question is more How - How did they pick the current location, and why are they so seemingly reluctant to even consider moving it to a less sensitive location?

Why - Why now? Why here? Why are the Islamics the front people for this project, given that the building certainly will have other uses?

*****

Hey we don't hate Muslims, in fact its the opposite of that.

Actually more Americans are sympathizing with the Palestinian cause, and see the Israel government as heavy handed and oppressive. More Americans are calling on Israel to recognize they have to live side by side with those other religions.

Plus Americans aren't naive, there are political motives behind this, it's not just a cut and dry location decision.

And if Kevin is so concerned what Osama Bin Lauden thinks, what I think, then I'm sorry. I'll try my damnedest to fight back my big ole Crocodile tears. As to say Boo Fucking Hoo.

One of the reasons I am for the right the build the Mosque, or whatever it is, at the location, other than all of the obvious reasons, is that this discussion (argument) is news everywhere, presumably even on Al Jazeera.

What does it say about us, if we allow it to be built ?

What does it say about us if we don't ?

I don't think that worrying about what others think is the only or even the biggest consideration, but it does matter..

I saw Ron Paul the other day voicing his strong view regarding the property rights and so on, and also his issue of us equating AL Queda with Islam. This is such a stupid argument to even be having.

Tenouncetrout says

What it’s not like History wont have enough to reflect unfavorably on Obama over.

I’ll bet Bush comes out way ahead of Obama.

Palin will Undo Obamacare with in her first 100 days in office. Her 100 day report card will based on things she’ll actually have done, by then.

Obama is going to fit right up there with Presidents that resided beside Oil Barons and sweat shop Industrialists in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s.

Riiight...

Kevin says

Thank you guys for proving Osama bin Laden right. Clearly, America hates Islam and wants to destroy it.
Way to go, dipshits.

Can't you guys (Simcha, Kevin) have a conversation without being overly dramatic? I am fine with a mosque being built just about anywhere in the country. All of these battle in CA, TN, etc. are stupid. I think building one that close to Ground Zero at this point in time is insulting. Where you get that America wants to destroy Islam is beyond me.

Islam wants to destroy everything that is non-Islam .. their own books and teachers make this clear. And, here's the kinda funny part, the two biggest halves of those crazy islamuslamic freaks will just kill each other when there is no other "enemy" around. That entire sect of humanity knows only death, lies, and hate. Isreal will survive, with or without mighty America.

When an artist is murdered for drawing pictures of Christ, and all Christians everywhere cheer the murder, then you can get back to me about the joys of the arab religion. Drawing pictures .. yep, that's a death sentence. Hell, my post is a death sentence to those crazy freaks.

I guess that's one option. Equate Islam, with the craziest voices within it and say, hey, you have to change ? OR disappear ? Or something like that ? How is that going to work out ?

Check this out : Muslim Voices Against Extremism and Terrorism - Part I - Fatwas - updated 5/5/10

http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/muslim_voices_against_extremism_and_terrorism_part_i_fatwas/

Personally, I would defend their right to build a mosque anywhere they legally bought land BUT only as long as I can say out loud without fear of violence that Mohammed was a horrible person who repeatedly robbed, raped, and murdered people who opposed him (as official Islamic hsitory records in detail):

http://www.faithfreedom.org/

They can keep their freedom of religion as long as I can keep my freedom of speech. Deal?

Personally, I would defend their right to build a mosque anywhere they legally bought land BUT only as long as I can say out loud without fear of violence that Mohammed was a horrible person who repeatedly robbed, raped, and murdered people who opposed him (as official Islamic hsitory records in detail):
http://www.faithfreedom.org/
They can keep their freedom of religion as long as I can keep my freedom of speech. Deal?

The best solution to the "mosque" problem I've heard so far by anyone.

I am officially starting my own religion.

I am now a born again heathen.

Those who wish to join can contribute 10% of their yearly earnings and will receive my blessings and a cool set of faux ram horns to wear when attending services. Please hurry with those contributions so I can found the first hodownery. Bless you, hotdamn.

There's a guy named Mark A. Schmidt who has this on facebook (see if it's readable)

I don't know how true Faithfreedoms take on Mohammed the man is. But LOGIC would suggest that considering the numbers, we would benefit from helping many of these people in to the 20th century (maybe the 21st after that).

Here's what I hear Patrick saying: "I want you to view us in friendship and with respect, but for the record, what I think about you is that the prophet that is at the core of your religion is a total dirtbag"

OH, but I hope we can still be friends.

Does the term self fulfilling prophecy mean anything to you ?

I'm not talking some wimpy PC liberal fantasy kumbaya here. Just logic. IF you had a neighbor that you thought potentially could be psychotic, but you thought might also have potential to grow and become an okay person, would it be important to you tell him that you think his mom was a whore (even if she was one ?)

Also, given the number of Muslims in the world, many of the statements about their propensity for violence seem greatly exaggerated to me.

Bap33 says

When an artist is murdered for drawing pictures of Christ, and all Christians everywhere cheer the murder, then you can get back to me about the joys of the arab religion

But y'all cheer when someone murders a doctor who performs abortions. Murder is murder. Under each circumstance (a killing over a drawing about Mohammed and a killing of a doctor who performs abortions) the motive is religious. You Christians are just as good as the Muslims at killing innocent people. Don't make me list all of the Crusades, pogroms, inquisitions, etc. both past and present perpetrated on innocents by Christians.

Now, I don't believe that most Christians cheer when a doctor who performs abortions is killed. It's only the Christian Fundamentalists who cheer when someone murders in the name of Jesus and Christianity. Islamic Fundamentalists are the only ones cheering when someone murders in the name of Islam. Fundamentalists in all religions are minorities. That is a fact.

simchaland says

You Christians are just as good as the Muslims at killing innocent people.

in this point you suggest that a person who has taken the hippo oath to protect all life "and do no harm", that is activly killing babies for a living, has not commited a crime ... that notion can be debated at least - meaning these is a possible view to be held based on normal human conduct as well as socially acceptable behavior, and law. THe point could be argued - both sides. But, to equate killing babies to making a drawing of some arab story teller -- that's a bit of a stretch, wouldn't you say? The killing of a baby "can be" called murder due to the fact it is pre-meditated, planned, and the victim has no defense, and the victim has done no harm. Are you equating the life of a baby to a cartoon? Really? That can't be intelligently argued in my opinion.

Nomo,
If intimidation is not counted, and the threat of death by head-chop-off for drawing a cartoon, or making fun of, or just not being the right type of islamuslamistic freak ..... if you feel the hostility and murder that has been supported and lifted up by THE MAJORITY of arab islamuslamists has not infringed on the freedoms of others world wide, then we disagree. Unless your point is, we have the freedom to draw cartoons and lampoon mohamad, it just may result in violence against us -- but we still retain that freedom -- if that's your point then I see what you are getting at, but that is not how most freedoms secured by the Consty are protected. Most are protected in a pro-active manner, not in a "go ahead and do it, just wait and see what's coming to you" type of way.
How is our freedom to express our opinions protected from retaliation, or even worse, our speech can be classified as "hate speech" and then what? I tend to agree with Patrick on this one.

Based on what I have seen and read, in my opinion, the left has taken up this fight for "freedom of religion". But the left is not "pro-religion" when the religion is Christianity. The left got in this because the left is anti-Christian (it seems), and that results in anti-American at times (in my opinion) because a large portion of America's core and foundation was built on JC philos, so any movement away from Christian ideals resembles a move away from American ideal ... both of which are really good things to islamuslamistic types, and bad for America.

Having said all that, I don't care where anyone builds anything. Build all the pray stations you want, it matters nil. I don't think a brothel should be next to a school, or a prison next to a playground, or a body shop next to a Sizzlers, but whoever wants to build whatever don't mean anything unless you are part of the group. THe fact this was made public is a media thing. Just another "watch the bouncing ball" trick. Arizona didn't last long enough to get Lord Barry and his band of thieves through November, so they needed something else. ANother Natelie Halloway story is what Barry really needs to keep things moving out of public eye.

Bap33 says

Based on what I have seen and read, in my opinion, the left has taken up this fight for “freedom of religion”. But the left is not “pro-religion” when the religion is Christianity.

Bap--don't you see the difference there? Being for "freedom of religion" is different than being "pro-religion". Most atheists are probably in favor of the freedom of religion.

Bap33 says

in this point you suggest that a person who has taken the hippo oath to protect all life “and do no harm”, that is activly killing babies for a living, has not commited a crime … that notion can be debated at least - meaning these is a possible view to be held based on normal human conduct as well as socially acceptable behavior, and law. THe point could be argued - both sides. But, to equate killing babies to making a drawing of some arab story teller — that’s a bit of a stretch, wouldn’t you say? The killing of a baby “can be” called murder due to the fact it is pre-meditated, planned, and the victim has no defense, and the victim has done no harm. Are you equating the life of a baby to a cartoon? Really? That can’t be intelligently argued in my opinion

So you believe that killing someone performing a legal activity (abortion is legal, the question of whether it should be is immaterial) is acceptable if you don't agree with their activity. What about all the people that do agree with their actions? Who made you the arbitrator? What about the people that say based on their beliefs that a cartoon is more offensive than killing a baby? Does that make it ok for them to kill the cartoonist (who is also performing a legal activity)?

Bap33 says

The killing of a baby “can be” called murder due to the fact it is pre-meditated, planned, and the victim has no defense, and the victim has done no harm. Are you equating the life of a baby to a cartoon? Really? That can’t be intelligently argued in my opinion.

I didn't hear him "equating" the two. He talked about killing innocent people. Some view a fetus as a potential life rather than an actual life. Only God knows when a soul enters a baby. Or when it becomes a true person. We aren't God (although some fundamentalists are equally arrogant as the cartoonist killers, THAT THEY ACTUALLY THINK THEY ARE DOING GODS WILL WHEN THEY KILL A COMPASSIONATE ADULT DOCTOR)

People who are pro-choice don't like abortions. But they believe in letting the person who is pregnant make the choice. We shouldn't have this debate here, because we both know both sides.

But...

I saw a pro-vegetarian video on that faithfreedom website about meat production. In it it said that an adult pig has the intelligence of a three year old child. Through your direct communication with God, do you somehow know that a fertilized human egg is somehow so much more valuable to him/her than the pig ? I just don't know. But I do have some bacon in my fridge.

Also, as a man who has never had children, but has used contraceptives many times or otherwise consciously prevented my sperm from finding a human egg, am I a murderer ? I could have had dozens of kids by now if I had made sure that my physical desire to reproduce had been as fruitful as possible. Preventing a baby with a condom, or the pill, or earlier, by saying no to a womans advances, is fine, but the moment that egg is fertilized, that potential human is suddenly a total human ? I just don't know. And I know, you do.

Obviously the doctor doing abortions has a view closer to mine. Making him innocent. So Simcha wasn't so far off with the comparison.

bob2356 says

What about the people that say based on their beliefs that a cartoon is more offensive than killing a baby? Does that make it ok for them to kill the cartoonist (who is also performing a legal activity)?

Good point.

bob2356 says

What about the people that say based on their beliefs that a cartoon is more offensive than killing a baby? Does that make it ok for them to kill the cartoonist (who is also performing a legal activity)?

Maybe not, because it's not just about beliefs. You see the fundamentalist Christians have the true religion and they know what God really wants, where as the Muslim fundamentalists may feel their beliefs just as much, but those beliefs are in a false religion, they only think they know what God wants. Come on,...keep up.

incase anyone is following along, the act of murdering a baby has just now been equated to drawing a picture. Weird.

I did not pass any judgment in my post, nor suggest any act of murder on a doctor was ok.

I do not suggest that having sex without wanting to make a baby is wrong, and using a contraceptive or some other dont-get-prego system is the same as killing the baby in the womb. Sex for rec, or personal abuse, is not murder in the Christian life (as far as I know).

A baby is a baby and has it's very own (soul/life force/whatever) after the fertilized cell begins to split, having it's own DNA that is part male doner and part female doner .... in my opinion. I feel this way because a normal healthy fertilized egg will continue to split and strive to live until the natural death of the 90+ year old person it becomes - if left alone and all goes well. Again, just my opinion.

Bap33 says

A baby is a baby and has it’s very own (soul/life force/whatever) after the fertilized cell begins to split, having it’s own DNA that is part male doner and part female doner …. in my opinion . Precisely!

And that is an opinion that comes from your religious beliefs and isn't really based in science. Please don't dishonor yourself by denying this.

And that's my point here. Christian Fundamentalists cheer when a doctor, who provides a perfectly legal procedure where he evacuates an organism that is a parasite (see definition of parasite) from a woman's uterus, gets murdered by one of their own based on the religious belief that somehow a soul has entered into this biological parasite and is now considered a "baby." Calling it a "baby" and a "human" is emotionally loaded language that is based on emotion and religious belief, not science. Therefore a Christian Fundamentalist, according to his or her beliefs, has decided that this type of doctor is a "murderer" and deserves to be murdered him/herself. And they celebrate this act of murder out of a religious belief that they are "saving" other "babies" from "murder." These Fundamentalist Christians cheer when an innocent is murdered.

That is the same thing as an Islamic Fundamentalist deciding for religious reasons that depicting Mohammed in a cartoon is blasphemy that should be punished by murder of the offending artist thus protecting other Muslims from blasphemy. And the Islamic Fundamentalists cheer when the innocent artist gets murdered.

Both the doctor and the artist are innocents here. And both are victims of Fundamentalism. In one case it's Christian Fundamentalism and in the other case it's Islamic Fundamentalism. The results are the same. An innocent gets murdered because of a religious belief.

Fundamentalism in any religion is the same. It seems to lead followers to a violent path that is based on doing for God on Earth what they are led to believe they must do for God.

Bap33 says

Sex for rec, or personal abuse, is not murder in the Christian life (as far as I know)

OF course not, but why ? Clearly millions of babies a year (in the US alone) that otherwise would have come in to existence, are prevented from doing so. All those sperms and eggs were prevented from fulfilling their mission. Just think.

How can you justify or rationalize that ?

And yet you KNOW that at fertilization those sperms and eggs that a moment ago were basically irrelevant biological matter, are now a human being?

From my point of view we are talking potential human being and the potential increases a lot at fertilization, and abortion is an ugly concept and process. But I don't know how anyone can know when a human becomes a human. If there is such a thing as a soul, I don't know why it would necessarily be there when there are just a few cells.

Incidentally, old school Catholics do (or did) have a belief that sex should always be about procreation and that masturbation is a sin. Obviously you get a lot of new Catholics with those beliefs.

Bap33 says

I feel this way because a normal healthy fertilized egg will continue to split and strive to live until the natural death of the 90+ year old person it becomes - if left alone and all goes well.

Nomo or others can probably speak to this better than I, but I'm pretty sure that a fertilized egg will not survive on its own.

no human survives without nurishment and a waste system. So, if you get fed through a tube because of a defective throat, or fed through a tube called an umb-cord, you are still getting fed. Food in, waste out, cells split, cells slough away, the process is life - I think. But, nothing that lives can survive on it's own.

marcus says

Bap33 says

Sex for rec, or personal abuse, is not murder in the Christian life (as far as I know)

OF course not, but why ? Clearly millions of babies a year (in the US alone) that otherwise would have come in to existence, are prevented from doing so. All those sperms and eggs were prevented from fulfilling their mission. Just think.

no, a baby is what you get AFTER egg meets sperm. Before a baby you only have eggs and sperm. Eggs are alive (kinda) but they do not split cells. Sperm are alive, but they do not split cells. Neither an egg nor a sperm take in nuishment or create waste. But, a fertilized egg does all three ... splits cells, takes in nuishment, and sends out waste. And don't skip over that whole unique DNA print that each new fertilized egg has, please, as that is kinda important too. You see, that fertilized egg can only end up what that DNA says ... and this copy-paste from a site tells me there is a time frame:
"Male and female gametes (eggs and sperm) each have a nucleus containing DNA. Within hours after penetration by the sperm, the egg jettisons half of its chromosomes in a process called meiosis. (Sperm complete meiosis much earlier, while still in the testes.) The remaining DNA packet from each gamete is called a pro-nucleus. For a period of time after the sperm penetrates the egg, the two pro-nuclei exist separately within the cytoplasm of the egg. Appropriately, this earliest stage of development is called the “two pro-nucleate” (or 2PN) stage. When embryos are being created in an IVF laboratory, the embryologist typically will be looking for proof of initial fertilization (2 pronuclei in close proximity to each other) about 16-18 hours after insemination."

I thought that sounded about right.

Marcus, Do you believe in the God of The Bible? Do you believe in the spirit/soul? My answers are yes, and yes.

@sim,
I included some science in that last post. Just trying to keep it real.

Nice

Bap33 says

Marcus, Do you believe in the God of The Bible? Do you believe in the spirit/soul? My answers are yes, and yes.

I'm one of those who takes pleasure in the mystery of it all. That is, I don't need to feel that I know the answers. But also, I don't like being wrong, which is a good reason to not commit to dogma. But I was originally Catholic.

It's an interesting question that I spent a lot of time in my adolescence pondering. I don't spend too much time there anymore, but it still is an extremely good and unanswered question for me. I guess I can say that I don't believe in the God of the bible. This has allowed me to explore eastern and I guess in a way pagan views. Ultimately I am agnostic I guess.

I could only believe in and love a god who would have more respect for an atheist who was a good person, than a Christian who was a born again dirtbag. That is, I believe actions are important. You don't get to just do what ever and then go to confession or repent. I had problems with the logic of that at a very early age. I'm not totally denying grace or forgiveness. But to me actions, that is not harming others is more important than what you believe.

Having said that, I still do eat meat. I guess I'm some kind of protein addict and something of a hypocrite at that.

Spirit ? Soul ? I would like to think so. I guess I love the mystery.

You are doing well, having been under the influence of Catholicism. Since I too struggle with the whole man-made religion thing, I see your point pretty well. I read the Bible the first time at about 15 or so, and in my simple mind I could read and understand that God and Jesus said to not do things that the Catholics (I was born into) did do - regularly - so I avoided that particular classification. I believe in God. Not even a little doubt. I believe Jesus died an innocent man to cover ALL sins of man, not just mine. Angles, demons, Satan, hell ... yep, I believe our soul lives on forever in the spiritual energy of the universe. Energy can not be created nor destroyed, it just changes state. In a scientific sence, we return to source when we expire - maybe. lol

Bap33 says

in my simple mind I could read and understand that God and Jesus said to not do things that the Catholics (I was born into) did do - regularly

Curious. What do Catholics do regularly that the bible says not to do ?

Nomograph says

Your freedom of speech is protected already, as is their freedom of religion. The two issues are unrelated, and to insinuate that their religion infringes on your free speech is to play the victim. You are not being victimized in any way.

I disagree. The issues are directly related. Their religion calls for your death if you exercise your freedom of speech. I definitely agree with Bap. It's not much consolation to know that it would be illegal for them to kill you. Parts of Islam would be classified as illegal hate speech and incitement to violence were it not an official religion.

marcus says

Here’s what I hear Patrick saying: “I want you to view us in friendship and with respect, but for the record, what I think about you is that the prophet that is at the core of your religion is a total dirtbag”

No, that's not what I meant. No devout Muslim can ever view non-Muslims with friendship and respect. It is specifically and repeatedly forbidden in the Koran to make friends with infidels, and it could hardly be less respectful to them too, calling them filthy and untouchable, destined for hell, etc. Get your Koran and follow along: http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/call_to_muslims.htm

No devout Muslim can ever view non-Muslims with friendship and respect.

I'm surprised Patrick. I'll try to look in to it. But you have to know that faithfreedom has a pretty strong bias. Doesn't have a very objective feel to it.

Besides, Islamic faith is like any other, a majority are less devout, and less orthodox, not fundamentalist. There's no benefit to insulting them, or trying to tell them why their religion sucks. A person can't help what superstitions go with the family they happen to get born in to.

@marcus,
I am not trying to pick shit with Catholics ... and I admit that I have only read the KJ Bible ... but in there it says very plain that it is wrong to:
Pray to Mary (or saints or anyone other than God - directly)
Pray to images of things in Heaven
Graven images
Talking to dead people
Chant/blindy repeat for prayor (mass is EXACTLY not an ok way to pray to God - but it is a cool tridition) Rosary combines robot chants and praying to Mary.
None of the Church structure is biblical. Pope on down ... all man made stuff.
Puragatory ... not biblical
Pentance for salvation .... not biblical
Fish on Friday is not anywhere in The Bible
And that hand jive they do when they drive past a church is not found anywhere in text.

There may be other stuff, but it's late and I'm tired. No offence to my Catholic peeps.

thunderlips11 says

In any case, It’s all Fox News’ Fault. The Mosque is being founded by Saudi prince Al-Waleed bin Talal, who is the second biggest shareholders in News Corp, Fox News parent company . Fox News profit is paid via News Corp stock dividends to bin Talal, who then uses it to fund mosques like the one near Ground Zero.

And Citibank, Apple, Four Seasons, Motorola, MCI, Euro Disney, Monte Carlo Hotel, and AOL.

Hum! Apple with its cool Ipods, Iphones, and all the rest funding mosques like the ones near Ground Zero. 5% stake doesnt make you second biggest shareholder. Dodge and Cox have 8% stake.