patrick.net

I don't know how true Faithfreedoms take on Mohammed the man is. But LOGIC would suggest that considering the numbers, we would benefit from helping many of these people in to the 20th century (maybe the 21st after that).

Here's what I hear Patrick saying: "I want you to view us in friendship and with respect, but for the record, what I think about you is that the prophet that is at the core of your religion is a total dirtbag"

OH, but I hope we can still be friends.

Does the term self fulfilling prophecy mean anything to you ?

I'm not talking some wimpy PC liberal fantasy kumbaya here. Just logic. IF you had a neighbor that you thought potentially could be psychotic, but you thought might also have potential to grow and become an okay person, would it be important to you tell him that you think his mom was a whore (even if she was one ?)

Also, given the number of Muslims in the world, many of the statements about their propensity for violence seem greatly exaggerated to me.

Bap33 says

When an artist is murdered for drawing pictures of Christ, and all Christians everywhere cheer the murder, then you can get back to me about the joys of the arab religion

But y'all cheer when someone murders a doctor who performs abortions. Murder is murder. Under each circumstance (a killing over a drawing about Mohammed and a killing of a doctor who performs abortions) the motive is religious. You Christians are just as good as the Muslims at killing innocent people. Don't make me list all of the Crusades, pogroms, inquisitions, etc. both past and present perpetrated on innocents by Christians.

Now, I don't believe that most Christians cheer when a doctor who performs abortions is killed. It's only the Christian Fundamentalists who cheer when someone murders in the name of Jesus and Christianity. Islamic Fundamentalists are the only ones cheering when someone murders in the name of Islam. Fundamentalists in all religions are minorities. That is a fact.

simchaland says

You Christians are just as good as the Muslims at killing innocent people.

in this point you suggest that a person who has taken the hippo oath to protect all life "and do no harm", that is activly killing babies for a living, has not commited a crime ... that notion can be debated at least - meaning these is a possible view to be held based on normal human conduct as well as socially acceptable behavior, and law. THe point could be argued - both sides. But, to equate killing babies to making a drawing of some arab story teller -- that's a bit of a stretch, wouldn't you say? The killing of a baby "can be" called murder due to the fact it is pre-meditated, planned, and the victim has no defense, and the victim has done no harm. Are you equating the life of a baby to a cartoon? Really? That can't be intelligently argued in my opinion.

Nomo,
If intimidation is not counted, and the threat of death by head-chop-off for drawing a cartoon, or making fun of, or just not being the right type of islamuslamistic freak ..... if you feel the hostility and murder that has been supported and lifted up by THE MAJORITY of arab islamuslamists has not infringed on the freedoms of others world wide, then we disagree. Unless your point is, we have the freedom to draw cartoons and lampoon mohamad, it just may result in violence against us -- but we still retain that freedom -- if that's your point then I see what you are getting at, but that is not how most freedoms secured by the Consty are protected. Most are protected in a pro-active manner, not in a "go ahead and do it, just wait and see what's coming to you" type of way.
How is our freedom to express our opinions protected from retaliation, or even worse, our speech can be classified as "hate speech" and then what? I tend to agree with Patrick on this one.

Based on what I have seen and read, in my opinion, the left has taken up this fight for "freedom of religion". But the left is not "pro-religion" when the religion is Christianity. The left got in this because the left is anti-Christian (it seems), and that results in anti-American at times (in my opinion) because a large portion of America's core and foundation was built on JC philos, so any movement away from Christian ideals resembles a move away from American ideal ... both of which are really good things to islamuslamistic types, and bad for America.

Having said all that, I don't care where anyone builds anything. Build all the pray stations you want, it matters nil. I don't think a brothel should be next to a school, or a prison next to a playground, or a body shop next to a Sizzlers, but whoever wants to build whatever don't mean anything unless you are part of the group. THe fact this was made public is a media thing. Just another "watch the bouncing ball" trick. Arizona didn't last long enough to get Lord Barry and his band of thieves through November, so they needed something else. ANother Natelie Halloway story is what Barry really needs to keep things moving out of public eye.

Bap33 says

Based on what I have seen and read, in my opinion, the left has taken up this fight for “freedom of religion”. But the left is not “pro-religion” when the religion is Christianity.

Bap--don't you see the difference there? Being for "freedom of religion" is different than being "pro-religion". Most atheists are probably in favor of the freedom of religion.

Bap33 says

in this point you suggest that a person who has taken the hippo oath to protect all life “and do no harm”, that is activly killing babies for a living, has not commited a crime … that notion can be debated at least - meaning these is a possible view to be held based on normal human conduct as well as socially acceptable behavior, and law. THe point could be argued - both sides. But, to equate killing babies to making a drawing of some arab story teller — that’s a bit of a stretch, wouldn’t you say? The killing of a baby “can be” called murder due to the fact it is pre-meditated, planned, and the victim has no defense, and the victim has done no harm. Are you equating the life of a baby to a cartoon? Really? That can’t be intelligently argued in my opinion

So you believe that killing someone performing a legal activity (abortion is legal, the question of whether it should be is immaterial) is acceptable if you don't agree with their activity. What about all the people that do agree with their actions? Who made you the arbitrator? What about the people that say based on their beliefs that a cartoon is more offensive than killing a baby? Does that make it ok for them to kill the cartoonist (who is also performing a legal activity)?

Bap33 says

The killing of a baby “can be” called murder due to the fact it is pre-meditated, planned, and the victim has no defense, and the victim has done no harm. Are you equating the life of a baby to a cartoon? Really? That can’t be intelligently argued in my opinion.

I didn't hear him "equating" the two. He talked about killing innocent people. Some view a fetus as a potential life rather than an actual life. Only God knows when a soul enters a baby. Or when it becomes a true person. We aren't God (although some fundamentalists are equally arrogant as the cartoonist killers, THAT THEY ACTUALLY THINK THEY ARE DOING GODS WILL WHEN THEY KILL A COMPASSIONATE ADULT DOCTOR)

People who are pro-choice don't like abortions. But they believe in letting the person who is pregnant make the choice. We shouldn't have this debate here, because we both know both sides.

But...

I saw a pro-vegetarian video on that faithfreedom website about meat production. In it it said that an adult pig has the intelligence of a three year old child. Through your direct communication with God, do you somehow know that a fertilized human egg is somehow so much more valuable to him/her than the pig ? I just don't know. But I do have some bacon in my fridge.

Also, as a man who has never had children, but has used contraceptives many times or otherwise consciously prevented my sperm from finding a human egg, am I a murderer ? I could have had dozens of kids by now if I had made sure that my physical desire to reproduce had been as fruitful as possible. Preventing a baby with a condom, or the pill, or earlier, by saying no to a womans advances, is fine, but the moment that egg is fertilized, that potential human is suddenly a total human ? I just don't know. And I know, you do.

Obviously the doctor doing abortions has a view closer to mine. Making him innocent. So Simcha wasn't so far off with the comparison.

bob2356 says

What about the people that say based on their beliefs that a cartoon is more offensive than killing a baby? Does that make it ok for them to kill the cartoonist (who is also performing a legal activity)?

Good point.

bob2356 says

What about the people that say based on their beliefs that a cartoon is more offensive than killing a baby? Does that make it ok for them to kill the cartoonist (who is also performing a legal activity)?

Maybe not, because it's not just about beliefs. You see the fundamentalist Christians have the true religion and they know what God really wants, where as the Muslim fundamentalists may feel their beliefs just as much, but those beliefs are in a false religion, they only think they know what God wants. Come on,...keep up.

incase anyone is following along, the act of murdering a baby has just now been equated to drawing a picture. Weird.

I did not pass any judgment in my post, nor suggest any act of murder on a doctor was ok.

I do not suggest that having sex without wanting to make a baby is wrong, and using a contraceptive or some other dont-get-prego system is the same as killing the baby in the womb. Sex for rec, or personal abuse, is not murder in the Christian life (as far as I know).

A baby is a baby and has it's very own (soul/life force/whatever) after the fertilized cell begins to split, having it's own DNA that is part male doner and part female doner .... in my opinion. I feel this way because a normal healthy fertilized egg will continue to split and strive to live until the natural death of the 90+ year old person it becomes - if left alone and all goes well. Again, just my opinion.

Bap33 says

A baby is a baby and has it’s very own (soul/life force/whatever) after the fertilized cell begins to split, having it’s own DNA that is part male doner and part female doner …. in my opinion . Precisely!

And that is an opinion that comes from your religious beliefs and isn't really based in science. Please don't dishonor yourself by denying this.

And that's my point here. Christian Fundamentalists cheer when a doctor, who provides a perfectly legal procedure where he evacuates an organism that is a parasite (see definition of parasite) from a woman's uterus, gets murdered by one of their own based on the religious belief that somehow a soul has entered into this biological parasite and is now considered a "baby." Calling it a "baby" and a "human" is emotionally loaded language that is based on emotion and religious belief, not science. Therefore a Christian Fundamentalist, according to his or her beliefs, has decided that this type of doctor is a "murderer" and deserves to be murdered him/herself. And they celebrate this act of murder out of a religious belief that they are "saving" other "babies" from "murder." These Fundamentalist Christians cheer when an innocent is murdered.

That is the same thing as an Islamic Fundamentalist deciding for religious reasons that depicting Mohammed in a cartoon is blasphemy that should be punished by murder of the offending artist thus protecting other Muslims from blasphemy. And the Islamic Fundamentalists cheer when the innocent artist gets murdered.

Both the doctor and the artist are innocents here. And both are victims of Fundamentalism. In one case it's Christian Fundamentalism and in the other case it's Islamic Fundamentalism. The results are the same. An innocent gets murdered because of a religious belief.

Fundamentalism in any religion is the same. It seems to lead followers to a violent path that is based on doing for God on Earth what they are led to believe they must do for God.

Bap33 says

Sex for rec, or personal abuse, is not murder in the Christian life (as far as I know)

OF course not, but why ? Clearly millions of babies a year (in the US alone) that otherwise would have come in to existence, are prevented from doing so. All those sperms and eggs were prevented from fulfilling their mission. Just think.

How can you justify or rationalize that ?

And yet you KNOW that at fertilization those sperms and eggs that a moment ago were basically irrelevant biological matter, are now a human being?

From my point of view we are talking potential human being and the potential increases a lot at fertilization, and abortion is an ugly concept and process. But I don't know how anyone can know when a human becomes a human. If there is such a thing as a soul, I don't know why it would necessarily be there when there are just a few cells.

Incidentally, old school Catholics do (or did) have a belief that sex should always be about procreation and that masturbation is a sin. Obviously you get a lot of new Catholics with those beliefs.

Bap33 says

I feel this way because a normal healthy fertilized egg will continue to split and strive to live until the natural death of the 90+ year old person it becomes - if left alone and all goes well.

Nomo or others can probably speak to this better than I, but I'm pretty sure that a fertilized egg will not survive on its own.

no human survives without nurishment and a waste system. So, if you get fed through a tube because of a defective throat, or fed through a tube called an umb-cord, you are still getting fed. Food in, waste out, cells split, cells slough away, the process is life - I think. But, nothing that lives can survive on it's own.

marcus says

Bap33 says

Sex for rec, or personal abuse, is not murder in the Christian life (as far as I know)

OF course not, but why ? Clearly millions of babies a year (in the US alone) that otherwise would have come in to existence, are prevented from doing so. All those sperms and eggs were prevented from fulfilling their mission. Just think.

no, a baby is what you get AFTER egg meets sperm. Before a baby you only have eggs and sperm. Eggs are alive (kinda) but they do not split cells. Sperm are alive, but they do not split cells. Neither an egg nor a sperm take in nuishment or create waste. But, a fertilized egg does all three ... splits cells, takes in nuishment, and sends out waste. And don't skip over that whole unique DNA print that each new fertilized egg has, please, as that is kinda important too. You see, that fertilized egg can only end up what that DNA says ... and this copy-paste from a site tells me there is a time frame:
"Male and female gametes (eggs and sperm) each have a nucleus containing DNA. Within hours after penetration by the sperm, the egg jettisons half of its chromosomes in a process called meiosis. (Sperm complete meiosis much earlier, while still in the testes.) The remaining DNA packet from each gamete is called a pro-nucleus. For a period of time after the sperm penetrates the egg, the two pro-nuclei exist separately within the cytoplasm of the egg. Appropriately, this earliest stage of development is called the “two pro-nucleate” (or 2PN) stage. When embryos are being created in an IVF laboratory, the embryologist typically will be looking for proof of initial fertilization (2 pronuclei in close proximity to each other) about 16-18 hours after insemination."

I thought that sounded about right.

Marcus, Do you believe in the God of The Bible? Do you believe in the spirit/soul? My answers are yes, and yes.

@sim,
I included some science in that last post. Just trying to keep it real.

Nice

Bap33 says

Marcus, Do you believe in the God of The Bible? Do you believe in the spirit/soul? My answers are yes, and yes.

I'm one of those who takes pleasure in the mystery of it all. That is, I don't need to feel that I know the answers. But also, I don't like being wrong, which is a good reason to not commit to dogma. But I was originally Catholic.

It's an interesting question that I spent a lot of time in my adolescence pondering. I don't spend too much time there anymore, but it still is an extremely good and unanswered question for me. I guess I can say that I don't believe in the God of the bible. This has allowed me to explore eastern and I guess in a way pagan views. Ultimately I am agnostic I guess.

I could only believe in and love a god who would have more respect for an atheist who was a good person, than a Christian who was a born again dirtbag. That is, I believe actions are important. You don't get to just do what ever and then go to confession or repent. I had problems with the logic of that at a very early age. I'm not totally denying grace or forgiveness. But to me actions, that is not harming others is more important than what you believe.

Having said that, I still do eat meat. I guess I'm some kind of protein addict and something of a hypocrite at that.

Spirit ? Soul ? I would like to think so. I guess I love the mystery.

You are doing well, having been under the influence of Catholicism. Since I too struggle with the whole man-made religion thing, I see your point pretty well. I read the Bible the first time at about 15 or so, and in my simple mind I could read and understand that God and Jesus said to not do things that the Catholics (I was born into) did do - regularly - so I avoided that particular classification. I believe in God. Not even a little doubt. I believe Jesus died an innocent man to cover ALL sins of man, not just mine. Angles, demons, Satan, hell ... yep, I believe our soul lives on forever in the spiritual energy of the universe. Energy can not be created nor destroyed, it just changes state. In a scientific sence, we return to source when we expire - maybe. lol

Bap33 says

in my simple mind I could read and understand that God and Jesus said to not do things that the Catholics (I was born into) did do - regularly

Curious. What do Catholics do regularly that the bible says not to do ?

Nomograph says

Your freedom of speech is protected already, as is their freedom of religion. The two issues are unrelated, and to insinuate that their religion infringes on your free speech is to play the victim. You are not being victimized in any way.

I disagree. The issues are directly related. Their religion calls for your death if you exercise your freedom of speech. I definitely agree with Bap. It's not much consolation to know that it would be illegal for them to kill you. Parts of Islam would be classified as illegal hate speech and incitement to violence were it not an official religion.

marcus says

Here’s what I hear Patrick saying: “I want you to view us in friendship and with respect, but for the record, what I think about you is that the prophet that is at the core of your religion is a total dirtbag”

No, that's not what I meant. No devout Muslim can ever view non-Muslims with friendship and respect. It is specifically and repeatedly forbidden in the Koran to make friends with infidels, and it could hardly be less respectful to them too, calling them filthy and untouchable, destined for hell, etc. Get your Koran and follow along: http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/call_to_muslims.htm

No devout Muslim can ever view non-Muslims with friendship and respect.

I'm surprised Patrick. I'll try to look in to it. But you have to know that faithfreedom has a pretty strong bias. Doesn't have a very objective feel to it.

Besides, Islamic faith is like any other, a majority are less devout, and less orthodox, not fundamentalist. There's no benefit to insulting them, or trying to tell them why their religion sucks. A person can't help what superstitions go with the family they happen to get born in to.

@marcus,
I am not trying to pick shit with Catholics ... and I admit that I have only read the KJ Bible ... but in there it says very plain that it is wrong to:
Pray to Mary (or saints or anyone other than God - directly)
Pray to images of things in Heaven
Graven images
Talking to dead people
Chant/blindy repeat for prayor (mass is EXACTLY not an ok way to pray to God - but it is a cool tridition) Rosary combines robot chants and praying to Mary.
None of the Church structure is biblical. Pope on down ... all man made stuff.
Puragatory ... not biblical
Pentance for salvation .... not biblical
Fish on Friday is not anywhere in The Bible
And that hand jive they do when they drive past a church is not found anywhere in text.

There may be other stuff, but it's late and I'm tired. No offence to my Catholic peeps.

thunderlips11 says

In any case, It’s all Fox News’ Fault. The Mosque is being founded by Saudi prince Al-Waleed bin Talal, who is the second biggest shareholders in News Corp, Fox News parent company . Fox News profit is paid via News Corp stock dividends to bin Talal, who then uses it to fund mosques like the one near Ground Zero.

And Citibank, Apple, Four Seasons, Motorola, MCI, Euro Disney, Monte Carlo Hotel, and AOL.

Hum! Apple with its cool Ipods, Iphones, and all the rest funding mosques like the ones near Ground Zero. 5% stake doesnt make you second biggest shareholder. Dodge and Cox have 8% stake.

marcus says

Besides, Islamic faith is like any other, a majority are less devout, and less orthodox, not fundamentalist. There’s no benefit to insulting them, or trying to tell them why their religion sucks. A person can’t help what superstitions go with the family they happen to get born in to.

In Islamic nations, they kill people for not following Islamic laws. When they come here, many didnt leave their religion at home, they have taken their Islamic laws to other shores. You can see that in Europe a few years back when muslims killed several people who 'offended' their religion. And those Islamic laws were and currently are being reinforced in local mosques.

So why did South Park censor Mohammed in one of its shows, because of violent treats ....

You remember Salman Rushdie...

Salman Rushdie, author of "The Satanic Verses" as of early 2010 has not been physically harmed, but others connected with the book have suffered violent attacks. Hitoshi Igarashi, the Japanese language translator of the book, was stabbed to death on 11 July 1991; Ettore Capriolo, the Italian language translator, was seriously injured in a stabbing the same month; William Nygaard, the publisher in Norway, barely survived an attempted assassination in Oslo in October 1993, and Aziz Nesin, the Turkish language translator, was the intended target in the events that led to the Sivas massacre on 2 July 1993 in Sivas, Turkey, which resulted in the deaths of 37 people

When Islamic countries are modernized they also become westernized and hopefully will eventually reject Theocratic governments on their own. We all know the Iranian example. It's just a matter of time. Hopefully.

http://www.newsweek.com/2009/12/30/the-death-of-theocracy.html

If you have any right wing Isreali friends, then you may hear a lot of the kind of bias "they will never be satisfied until Isreal is gone." I wonder what percentage of the under 33 yrs of age population (2/3 of Iran) of Iran feels that way.

Interesting video about youth of Iran

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixG55tWAebg&feature=player_embedded

marcus says

When Islamic countries are modernized they also become westernized and hopefully will eventually reject Theocratic governments on their own. We all know the Iranian example. It’s just a matter of time. Hopefully

Iran can be argued was the most modernized Middle East nation in the 60s-70s. But the modernization and western influence were rejected by many.
Perhaps the new generation will feel differently. I doubt it will be anything close before the '79 revolution.

Good to know you're paying attention.

Its not that freedom of religion is threatened - ALL freedom is threatened. And the greatest threat to our freedom is not some foreign enemy, it's the politicians right here in America (AKA "the enemy within"), who are stealing our freedom and liberty - one law, one rule, one regulation, one "code" at a time.

But many of you are too smart to recognize this. You want even more government, more dependency, more "helpful" government programs, more regulation, more taxes and more oppression because your distorted psychopathological mind thinks that is the solution to America's problems. Mnay of YOU are the cause of America's problems, because you support it all.

Aww, shucks, abeabe.

You started out so well. Really. I was duly impressed to notice that you recognized all of our freedome is threatened by the asinine protest of a religious community center in NYC. That people should be allowed to practice their religion, regardless of whether or not they agree with it.

I agree with you that polticos are manipulating emotions in order to get more division amongst the people - there are 6,000 christian places of worship, 1000 jewish places of worship, and 100 mosques in NYC right now (without the addition of the one that will obviously change mankind as we know it). The fact that there are several christian churches closer to ground zero than the proposed community center/mosque isn't relevent when one is attempting to whip the people into a frenzy over a non-issue.

We have so many other issues to worry about - including those pesky firefighters and rescuers who now demand healthcare since they fearlessly gave their time in order to find survivors, deceased, and god-knows what in the rubble. We haven't even addressed what the debris in the air did to the people who lived and worked around the site - because it's not an emotional issue. Those people shouldn't have lived that close to such an obvious target of a terrorist attack.

You had me at "hello." But then you lost me, abeabe... perhaps it was your accusation that we:
Honest Abe says

want even more government, more dependency, more “helpful” government programs, more regulation, more taxes and more oppression because your distorted psychopathological mind thinks that is the solution to America’s problems.

Or perhaps it was your final parting shot:
Honest Abe says

Mnay of YOU are the cause of America’s problems, because you support it all.

You drive on the roads maintained by your taxes, eat food subidized by farm subsidies, wear clothing imported by trade agreements, send your children to schools subsidized by your taxes, drive cars that cost less due to tax breaks to auto makers, use computers with components imported as a result of trade agreements, participate in the voting process that is heavily funded by the government, are protected by law enforcement agents paid for by your taxes, will draw social security funded in part by monies you contributed... and yet you don't believe that your participation in this society is heavy on the "more" of which you complain?

To voice your opinion, you write your comments about how others are dependent and imply that you're not - on a forum on the interwebs that I doubt you've contributed to. If you have, it probably was a token amount to make you feel better. You're as large a part of your perceived problem as everyone you blame for it.

Nomograph says

You have ZERO say over someone else’s rights.

TOT taking a huge bong hit...

"Word!" (cough! cough! cough!)

Garage, anyone?

Bap33 says

None of the Church structure is biblical. Pope on down … all man made stuff.
Puragatory … not biblical
Pentance for salvation …. not biblical

I'm with you about the man made religious traditions of the Catholic church, but how do you know that the bible or at least significant parts of it aren't also man made?

I'll play angel's advocate here for a minute. Maybe the humans who wrote the bible and the leaders of the church who came up with the sacraments and other specifics where vessels through which God communicated with us, and the differences are nothing more than human error or imperfections in the translation.

Maybe God likes to mix it up and do the religion thing differently for different groups and different times, but a certain amount of human error, causing divergence from what God actually wanted, always gets thrown in to the mix.

God couldn't teach tolerance if he made us view him the same.
I feel to criticize one religion is to criticize your own.
Also I feel tradition in regions trumps rights for others in that region.
Being if it is a Jewish village and you are a Baptist there to convert souls, then you get what you deserve for not respecting God in his all forms. The same for Jews, or Muslims, Christians, that traverse the Globe trying to reprovision tradition and religion as that region sees it.

When in Rome you don't have to do as the Romans do, but if want to be a Jersey Jew.
Then be so at your won accord.

Since we are so worried about what the Koran has to say in regard to violence, let's get real and quote the Hebrew Bible, which the Christians use too:

Bold emphasis is mine.

Follow me or die!
"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

"If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. " (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

"When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are about to enter and occupy, he will clear away many nations ahead of you: the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. These seven nations are all more powerful than you. When the LORD your God hands these nations over to you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy them. Make no treaties with them and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them, and don't let your daughters and sons marry their sons and daughters. They will lead your young people away from me to worship other gods. Then the anger of the LORD will burn against you, and he will destroy you." (Deuteronomy 7:1-4 NLT)

Basically, God is saying, "follow me or else!" above.

"You must destroy all the nations the LORD your God hands over to you. Show them no mercy and do not worship their gods. If you do, they will trap you. Perhaps you will think to yourselves, 'How can we ever conquer these nations that are so much more powerful than we are?' But don't be afraid of them! Just remember what the LORD your God did to Pharaoh and to all the land of Egypt. Remember the great terrors the LORD your God sent against them. You saw it all with your own eyes! And remember the miraculous signs and wonders, and the amazing power he used when he brought you out of Egypt. The LORD your God will use this same power against the people you fear. And then the LORD your God will send hornets to drive out the few survivors still hiding from you! "No, do not be afraid of those nations, for the LORD your God is among you, and he is a great and awesome God. The LORD your God will drive those nations out ahead of you little by little. You will not clear them away all at once, for if you did, the wild animals would multiply too quickly for you. But the LORD your God will hand them over to you. He will throw them into complete confusion until they are destroyed. He will put their kings in your power, and you will erase their names from the face of the earth. No one will be able to stand against you, and you will destroy them all." (Deuteronomy 7:16-24 NLT)

"Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death." (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

"If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through." (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

"Then, with Micah's idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob. Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel's son, but it had originally been called Laish." (Judges 18:27-29 NLT)

"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

"This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.'" (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)

Kill for God, or else!
"Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood." (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

And here's but one violent gem from the "New Testament." Peter kills with words and accusations:

"There was also a man named Ananias who, with his wife, Sapphira, sold some property. He brought part of the money to the apostles, but he claimed it was the full amount. His wife had agreed to this deception. Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren't lying to us but to God." As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died. Everyone who heard about it was terrified. Then some young men wrapped him in a sheet and took him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, "Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?" "Yes," she replied, "that was the price." And Peter said, "How could the two of you even think of doing a thing like this – conspiring together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Just outside that door are the young men who buried your husband, and they will carry you out, too." Instantly, she fell to the floor and died. When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear gripped the entire church and all others who heard what had happened. (Acts 5:1-11 NLT)

That last bit says that either you do the right thing or you will be struck dead.

Now, how is this different from the Koran? All religions springing forth from the "One God" are charged to do violence in the name of the "One God." The Koran is just following the theme of "follow our God or die" that was established in the very first of these religions in the Torah.

Now tell me how Jews and Christians have such peaceful sacred literature and the Koran is nothing but violence.

The above is but a sampling of violence in the Hebrew Bible and the Christian New Testament. I can dig up many more violent quotes.

@Marcus, that is another way to look at things, and that is very possible. There has to be a reason there are so many flavors of The Word. Sadly though, I figure man has screwed things up most times.

@Sim, in my opinion the first point that needs to be agreed upon is, "What is right and what is wrong." Do you think we should find a common base for morals and such first?

Bap33,

In my opinion the first point we should agree on is tolerance of differences in morals, religion, philosophy, thought, etc. Until we listen to one another, nothing can be accomplished. Tolerance is what the Founding Fathers wanted for us when they acknowledged that we were peoples who fled Europe to be able to live out our religious beliefs without interference or control from the government. They valued religious freedom so much that they wrote it into our founding documents. Tolerance is the first point we should agree upon because it's already something we are supposed to hold as Americans.

Finding a common base for morals can't be done without tolerance. Without tolerance it's going to be one group's set of morals that is chosen and rammed down everyone else's throats.

And we may never find a common base for morals because morality is situational. We are not omniscient beings. We are finite. We can't know absolute truth. And therefore we can't know absolute morality. Every moral system we devise will fall short of the ultimate moral truths (if they exist). Therefore, I believe that we must have tolerance for differences above all else.

The majority of Muslims are tolerant people. I know. I've been to Muslim countries as a Jew and I was NEVER harassed. Apparently I look Jewish so even though I wore nothing to identify that part of myself, they all knew and were curious about Judaism.

The majority of Christians are tolerant people. I have always worked with Christians who are tolerant of other people's beliefs without having the need to force their beliefs on anyone else.

The majority of Jews are tolerant people. Most Jews in the world are either Liberal Jews or Secular Jews. We don't "evangelize" and we don't believe that our path is the only path.

The minority of Muslims are Fundamentalists. They embarrass the majority of Muslims and get all the press due to their loud violence.

The minority of Christians are Fundamentalists. They embarrass the majority of Christians and get all of the press due to their loud shouting and occasional violence (Unless we count Iraq and Afghanistan as "Christian Holy Wars" which has a kernel of truth to it.).

The minority of Jews are Fundamentalists. Ultra Orthodox Jews are a very tiny minority in the world outside of Israel. Even in Israel Ultra Orthodox Jews are a minority. They often embarrass other Jews with their shouting and occasional violence.

I firmly believe that Fundamentalism of any stripe is the problem with all religions today. If you read my quotes above as "Inerrant" and as tenants that must be followed, you become a violent person ipso facto.

Tolerance is the key.

I just joined a Unitarian Universalist Church today after swearing that I'd never be in another organized religious setting. What I believe they have right is that they profess to strive for Tolerance of all beliefs, and even respect for all beliefs. No one is perfect and we all have our prejudices. However, we had a very nature-based service today where a Sufi Islamic text was read about the Spiritual Nature of Water. It was one of the most beautiful texts I've encountered about the Spiritual Nature of Water. It reminded me that most Muslims are not hate mongers who wish to destroy "The West" or "Non-Muslims (infidels)." Most Muslims are on a spiritual path to lead good and decent lives in community with others.

I am still a Jew. I fit in well at the UU Church I joined today. They embrace all religions, creeds, beliefs, and forms of spirituality. There are even Atheists who are Secular Humanists who go to services there and belong to this Church. There is a richness in the in-gathering of diverse ideologies where we are all learning from one another in peace.

That, I believe is the first point that needs to be agreed upon, Tolerance, to the point of Respect and Open-mindedness toward different opinions, viewpoints, beliefs, creeds, religions, theologies, etc.

simchaland says

I just joined a Unitarian Universalist Church today after swearing that I’d never be in another organized religious setting.

I like them. I've also checked out Unity Church, which is a bit more "new age." They had a much more interesting community in Chicago than they do here in LA. Maybe I will check out Unitarian Churches here. With a church like that you get the social benefits, the community and some of what could loosely be called group prayer, without the specific dogma. MY sister on the east coast is a member of a UU Church too.

simchaland says

Finding a common base for morals can’t be done without tolerance. Without tolerance it’s going to be one group’s set of morals that is chosen and rammed down everyone else’s throats.

Then, lets find what we can agree is intollerable. Is intollerance intollerable? What would you say should be listed as intollerable?

I think there are absolute lines between good and bad, and I think tollerance blurs some lines that should not be blurred. I also think common kindness is mistaken for tollerance.