patrick.net

I don't know. We should work together to abolish "no fault" divorces and require the absence of reasonable doubts in "fault" divorces.

I am principally against the idea of "child support." If the parents care about the kids at all they should not have gotten into a divorce.

Maybe loan applications should be supplied in "1099-LOAN" form to the IRS. :)

Maybe loan applications should be supplied in “1099-LOAN” form to the IRS.

Not 1099-MORT? Or is it too morbid?

PeterP said:
If the parents care about the kids...

That isn't saying much, considering that many boomers blame their kids for their financial f*ckups. [vide: the recent article on the Doyles in NYT: "We took out half a million dollars helocs and lost most of the money in the stock market, but it was not my fault - it was to put my kids through college."]

Peter P,

No fault divorces are very popular with half the population. I wish there was a way to change that law, but it would be an uphill battle.

Bernanke's 2-week vow of silence ended because he got hauled in front of congress, with predictable results.

Not his fault, but I'm starting to think that central bankers should be more like children: They should be seen but not heard :-). Silence is absolutely golden in central banking. Only actions should speak, and very subtly so.

Peter P Says:

> I am principally against the idea of “child support.”
> If the parents care about the kids at all they should
> not have gotten into a divorce.

Divorce is just part of the problem since most of the people paying (and on the run to avoid paying) child support never even bothered to get married.

The number one problem in America today is screwed up people having kids and not raising them.

I have always said that we need to make deadbeat dads (and moms) live in a military style boot camp and not let them out until they can prove that they are paying child support and spending time with their kids.

Is it politically incorrect to suggest irreversible contraception for unmarried parents?

I have always said that we need to make deadbeat dads (and moms) live in a military style boot camp and not let them out until they can prove that they are paying child support and spending time with their kids.

Not a bad idea if we can find a way to pay for it.

Not his fault, but I’m starting to think that central bankers should be more like children: They should be seen but not heard :-).

You meant good children, right? :)

Children in general are loudly heard before they even enter your field of vision.

Excuse me guys, but that sounds very totalitarian. I hope you're only joking. Can you imagine some elected judge deciding whether a parent need to go to boot camp (jail, effectively) for not being "good parents". No, thank you.

And yeah, it is not PC and also *very* totalitarian to sterilize people against their will.

I hope you’re only joking.

http://tinyurl.com/yr95qn

Divorce lawyers getting their hands on the documents would be one thing, but how about sending statements to the IRS.

You claimed you made 200k last year, but all you showed us was 40k... how about you come in and talk to us

Divorce lawyers are even more ruthlesspersistent than the IRS.

this is a very good subject for discussion!

Out here in Flyoverland*, there are job ads in Craig's List offering employment as some kind of collections phone naggers - I think mostly for things like child support. Of course the offerings are hinky as hell, spend lotsa time nagging people on the phone, get 'em to pay, and MAYBE you'll get paid but probably not....

*Flyoverland isn't a bad name, there are often 15 or more contrails going over here, straight on over, on any given clear day.

I wrote:

> I have always said that we need to make deadbeat
> dads (and moms) live in a military style boot camp
> and not let them out until they can prove that they
> are paying child support and spending time with
> their kids.

Then Peter P Says:

> Not a bad idea if we can find a way to pay for it.

We will make the deadbeat moms and dads work to clean and cook at the place and then pay the government back for the cost of their job training and room and board after they leave.

Then justme Says:

> Excuse me guys, but that sounds very totalitarian. I hope
> you’re only joking. Can you imagine some elected judge
> deciding whether a parent need to go to boot camp
> (jail, effectively) for not being “good parents”. No, thank you.

It is not totalitarian to make someone take care of a problem that they caused. If you have a dog and it craps on the sidewalk you have to clean it up and if you have a kid you have to pay for it and deal with it. The government can’t make people be “good” parents (or pet owners) but the government can make people pay for the kids they created (and pick up after their pets)…

This is not a bad idea, but consider that CA spent updwards of a $billion on an integrated child support database --which utterly failed. I wouldn't give them great odds on being able to develop a system that can efficiently cross reference child support and mortgage apps anytime soon.

Oh, and such a system would be "unfair" to stupid people, liars and opportunistic breeders. In fact, such people would probably join forces and form a PAC/lobbying group (perhaps named "S.L.O.B."). S.L.O.B. would use all the money they're not paying in child support to bribe state lawmakers and demand its immediate repeal.

Up until around 1930, most felons were routinely sterilized upon committment. A little known fact is originally castration was the method used, until the vascectomy operation was invented by a prison doctor as a humane alternative to castration.

The case Skinner v. Oklahoma did NOT hold felon sterilization per se unconstitutional. It merely said that Okalahomas exception for white-collar criminals was a violation of equal protection.

Regarding jailing deadbeat parents, take a look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debtors_prison

Quote:

In 1833 the United States reduced the practice of imprisonment for debts at the federal level. Most states followed suit. It is still possible, however, to be incarcerated for debt: debts of fraud, child-support, alimony, or release fines can land a citizen in jail or prison, or prevent one’s release.

Prominent Americans who spent time in debtors' prison include inventor Charles Goodyear, and Robert Morris, a signatory of the United States Declaration of Independence.

Unquote.

So it appears that debtors prison, apart from fraud, now is reserved for only the vilest types of criminals (sarcasm intended): Those who did not pay their child support or (ahem) alimony. Note how not paying taxes is not included on the list.

I can't believe that I am the only one here that is more than a little bit concerned that "deadbeat dads" and "deadbeat ex-husbands that got no-fault-divorced upon" are the ONLY classes of human beings that can still be put in debtor's prison. FBs, homedebtors, credit card mavens, tax evaders and other types of deadbeats need not apply.

I think that is food for thought.

DennisN,

what do you mean by castration? You mean making the felons eunichs before vasectomy was invented?

The right to breed is the ultimate competition among men, and that's why I believe that we should not subsidize each other's breeding effort, or results of breeding effort. Let's all duke it out and superior genes should win. However, having sex is god-given right, so castration is a bit harsh.

I am all for bringing back the practice of sterilization for offenders of certain serious crimes.

justme,

jailing costs way too much money, and once they are jailed, you cannot deploy them for productive use or someone will cry abuse of prison labor.

I think a better alternative is to cut off all social benefits and welfare to deadbeat parents, unless they agree to move into some kind of concentration camp where food will be served and shelter will be free. Now, let's be very careful not to call these places prisons, because we can deploy them for simple assembly jobs - like making toys or whatever, so that we can at least get some productivity out of them.

At some point this planet will reach 'peak population'/peak food production and the government will turn protestors and angry bloggers into Soylent Green to feed the compliant masses.

There are deadbeat dads simply living on a very low income, below the garnisment level, too.

HelloKitty is right, except I see the future more as Ran Prieur envisions, it's just a matter of staying out of Empire's say as it falls, as Jim Kunstler says, the gov't may have trouble answering the phones, much less setting up camps for anyone.

OO,

That *sounds* a little better, but I am not so sure it is different in practice. And does it still only apply to deadbeat parents? Then I am against it. It should apply to all debtors or none.

Note that social benefits and welfare already ARE cut off, through garnishment of wages and benefits.

Not to OO, but in general:

The problem with all these simplistic populistic lets-get-tough-on-social-problem-X "solutions" is that they are discriminary, arbitrary, totalitarian, unevenly enforced, expensive, ripe for abuse and generally do not solve the problem at hand, That is why I am against them.

OO - the US already has a HUGE prison labor industry. Prison labor is probably the largest single producer in the US.

I'd expect us, if we go that way, to end up having different levels, or circles, as Soltzenytsyn describes it, with prisons for the unskilled, out building roads and things, all the way up to prisons for engineers inventing stuff for the gov't.

Prison production was one of the pillars holding the old USSR up. This is a way Ran Prieur and Kunstler may be wrong - if the gov't nationalizes things to the extent that the old USSR did, and most of us end up in prisons of one type or another.

In my own case, I am not allowed to make more than the very bare minimum needed for survival. I will be punished if I add to the GDP of the Empire, so I don't.

I can’t believe that I am the only one here that is more than a little bit concerned that “deadbeat dads” and “deadbeat ex-husbands that got no-fault-divorced upon” are the ONLY classes of human beings that can still be put in debtor’s prison. FBs, homedebtors, credit card mavens, tax evaders and other types of deadbeats need not apply.

Actually, not quite true. Student loans are also non-dischargeable in bankruptcy, and creditors can pretty much garnish, win judgments against and hound the debtor forever. So, in reality, we have 3 classes of de facto "debtor's prison" in the U.S.:

1. student loan debtors (forever)
2. deadbeat dads (until child(ren) reaches 18)
3. deadbeat ex-husbands (until spouse remarries or becomes "self-supporting")

HARM,

Thanks for the taxonomy.

@justme,

Np. And all kidding aside, I am not in favor of the piecemeal erosion of individual bankruptcy protection we have seen over the last ~30 years or so.

Not everyone who ends up in bankruptcy court is a reckless FB or is just trying to ruthlessly "game" the system (disclaimer: I have never filed BK, but know several family members and friends who have). I believe BK should be an avenue of last resort, but it still *should* remain an option for people who would otherwise carry unrepayable debts to the grave.

What's better for society and the economy? Hounding unlucky people to the point where they change their identities, leave the U.S., or simply "drop out" of the system altogether? Or, giving them a (limited) fresh start, and allowing them to work, be productive and rejoin society?

Speaking of "ruthless" bankruptcies and people who "game" the system, how many times has a major U.S. automaker or airline repeatedly declared bankruptcy? How many American companies routinely use BK as a way to force a "renegotiation" with a labor union? Or as a regular "financial planning" tool?

Pot calling the kettle black?

There's a reason BK's in the Constitution. Some kind of "reset" button is necessary in every society.

Changing my ID, leaving the US, or simply dropping out of the system, living "below the radar" are things I'm really looking at. The more I worked and the more I earned, the more miserable I was. I have health ins for the first time in 15 years because I'm in the welfare system now. If I can make it out OK as a street artist or street musician or both, I'll be a hell of a lot happier than I'd be as an overworked, subconsciously suicidal cubicle rat.

Changing ID is about the best for the US economy, leaving the US or dropping out hurt the US economy. For these reasons I favor the second two options - leave the Empire or at least leave it economically.

Ob-english, I realize discriminary is not a good english word. I meant discriminatory, of course.

HARM,

>Pot calling the kettle black?
It certainly could seem that way,

OT.

Remember the unprecedented negative non-borrowed reserve at Fed that every financial blog is talking about?
http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h3/Current/

On Feb 8, they came out with an announcement (seemingly someone from the Fed must be reading financial blogs, since MSM never reported this)

February 08, 2008
Recent Declines in Nonborrowed Reserves

The H.3 statistical release indicates that nonborrowed reserves of depository institutions have declined substantially since mid-December to a level that is now negative. This development reflects the provision of a large volume of reserves through the Term Auction Facility (TAF) and has no adverse implications for the availability of reserves to the banking system.

By definition, nonborrowed reserves are equal to total reserves minus borrowed reserves. Borrowed reserves are equal to credit extended through the Federal Reserve's regular discount window programs as well as credit extended through the TAF. To maintain a level of total reserves consistent with the Federal Open Market Committee's target federal funds rate, increases in borrowed reserves must generally be met by a commensurate decrease in nonborrowed reserves, which is accomplished through a reduction in the Federal Reserve's holdings of securities and other assets. The negative level of nonborrowed reserves is an arithmetic result of the fact that TAF borrowings are larger than total reserves.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/feeds/h3.html

There's a Chinese idiom which describes this situation perfectly. Once upon a time, a smart bloke decided to dig a hole at his backyard and store 300 units of silver. After he did so, he was afraid that someone might steal it. Therefore, the smart bloke erected a sign above his digging ground that said: 300 units of silver does not lie beneath. Ever since, Chinese have been describing such an act as, 300 units of silver does not lie beneath.

Uh, why am I in moderation again? Did I divulge something serious about the Fed?

OO,

Probably :-) But I do not have any un-moderation powers, sorry.

I've said for a while that the IRS should be able to follow up on the income stated on a loan application, and should use them as a trigger for audits. The standard mortgage application is a federal form which even has a certification clause where you basically are certifying under civil and criminal penalties that the information is correct.

The link below is the form in PDF from a broker.

http://www.somersetmortgagecorp.com/pdf/valoan.pdf

Specifically on topic, I'm not sure I see any relevance to loan applications and child support. A court can definitely subpoena an application but the information is otherwise confidential.

HelloKitty Says:
February 14th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
"At some point this planet will reach ‘peak population’/peak food production and the government will turn protestors and angry bloggers into Soylent Green to feed the compliant masses."

Penn and Teller on their show Bullshit ridiculed people who believe this, and then literally in the same breath praised genetically engineered food saying if it wasn't for that science, the world only be capable of producing enough food for 2/3rds of the current population.

It's really unfortunate that it seems our government enforcement folks don't have the resources to go after all those who falsified mortgage applications. The problem is simply too large to handle.

It would seem they are going after some of the bigger fish, there will be some fall guys that politicians can hold out as examples of justice and consequence, while most of the real sharks walk free. It's shocking.

Below link is short wash post piece describing current FBI & SEC enforcement efforts. It’s shameful, in my opinion; so many resources are spent chasing phantom "terrorists" that we are left with this.

http://tinyurl.com/ypvv3w

We do need to keep the sheeple in line; we do need deal harshly with those who facilitated the liars and liars themselves at the lowest level. Like IRS random audit sampling, let's run a diff on mortgage apps and 1040's and slap all those folks with a nice criminal record. That's one with a little more consequence than FICO drop. It was a real fraud, committed with intent and malice, with real consequences and real victims. Ours is of course a society without real justice, but here we need some and I have a feeling it will not be coming. Let's redeploy all those donut eating gas guzzling ticket giving loafing first responder heroes at some middle class white boomers instead of pointing them at our ghettos.

To serve and protect? When I see those guys coming I don't feel like they are serving me and I certainly don't feel much protected.

Being behind in child support payments will prevent you from getting a law license in California. See the short list of credential issues here:
www.calsb.org/state/calbar/calbar_generic.jsp?cid=10115&id=3922

Be in compliance with California court ordered child or family support obligations.