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Is Wikileaks right or wrong? Or something inbetween?


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2010 Dec 6, 9:41am   8,399 views  45 comments

by Patrick   ➕follow (55)   💰tip   ignore  

Got an email from a reader about my linking to Wikileaks mirrors:

I enjoy your blog, but I think you're absolutely wrong for continuing to support wikileaks. Sure, we should be a free nation and expose abuse, but that doesn't mean we publish confidential information that puts Americans at risk of harm. Wikileaks has crossed the line. They also use threats of further harm if they're brought to justice. This organization is not what America is about.

I can see both side of it myself. I do want the US government to have a good amount of privacy in negotiating with foreign countries. But I'm also a true believer in freedom of speech, and the point of freedom of speech is mostly to be able to talk about government. Also, I can't quite figure out what law if any an Australian may have broken by releasing US diplomatic cables, or what harm he actually did. As Defense Secretary Robert Gates said, the US already "leaks like a sieve" already:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/11/30/131700348/wikileaks-impact-on-foreign-policy-fairly-modest-gates-says

I know the leaks pissed off Hillary Clinton, but I'm all for pissing off Hillary Clinton. She just gets on my nerves for some reason.

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1   elliemae   2010 Dec 6, 1:17pm  

In between. If they were so top secret, why did some aussie have access? There's not enough transparency in govt.

2   Bap33   2010 Dec 6, 1:21pm  

I want to know about Area 51
I want to know who shot Kennedy
I want to know why Pee Wee Herman got in trouble wanking in a dark theater ... not really.

3   FortWayne   2010 Dec 6, 1:31pm  

I'm sure you have seen me support WikiLeaks so you'll probably know where I'm going with this. I believe the person complaining about the WL support is simply wrong or has no concept of history.

We had the same uproar by the administration during Watergate Scandal when Nixon administration tried to put a clam on it. There was another one during Ellsberg Pentagon papers leak. History is repeating itself.

The New York Times, Guardian, and others are all running Wikileaks material. They all shared the same editorial judgement that this material must be published in public interest.

Yet the censorship attempts from the US Government, especially Senator Joe Lieberman and others does not detract from their troubling nature. The nature that these old crooks will do whatever it takes to silence whistle-blowers that will shine the light on the corruption in our upper echelons of government.

To me it appears that they have a lot of lies to cover up, a lot of lies to the people. And I am not ok with their attempts to silence freedom of press or speech out of self preservation. It is our rights, and they cannot have them. It is the right of free press to rock the boat, and WikiLeaks staff is completely right in their actions.

4   EastCoastBubbleBoy   2010 Dec 6, 1:47pm  

Initially, I was not against it. Although I questioned how one obtains classified cables... it's like trade secrets in industry. Once their published, they can't be "retracted" no matter what the impact to the "owner" of said secrets.

But if recent reports are true... an ultimatum of "arrest me for [non-secret divulging charges] and I'll leak even more...." this speaks more of ego and self-importance than any mission of truth. Besides if it were really only about getting the "truth" out there, why not release all files at once, not in piece-mail fashion, as was initially done.

I'm all for keeping the government honest, but question the underlying motives of the messenger.

5   nope   2010 Dec 6, 3:04pm  

I think they should have used better judgement about releasing a few of the cables, but mostly I support wikileaks.

I am horrified by the actions of Lieberman and the like, and I'm thankful for Ron Paul saying what he's said. If Lieberman gets his way, the U.S. will be no better than China in terms of information control, and any moral high ground we've claimed on human rights issues goes right out the window.

I really hope Joementum succeeds in getting them labelled as a terrorist organization, so then I can finally say that I have donated money to support terrorists.

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

Besides if it were really only about getting the “truth” out there, why not release all files at once, not in piece-mail fashion, as was initially done.

This has been explained quite a few times:

- Dumping everything at once creates too many opportunities for important information to fall through the cracks.
- Documents need to be appropriately redacted to protect the innocent (NYTimes and others helped with this).

6   TechGromit   2010 Dec 6, 10:36pm  

elliemae says

In between. If they were so top secret, why did some aussie have access? There’s not enough transparency in govt.

I think this came about from September 11th, there was a big scandal over agencies not sharing information and they it might have been prevented if all the government agencies were aware of what was going on at the time. That's why a army private had access to classified communications, agencies are sharing information. I do however firmly believe that there is plenty of TOP secret information that wasn't shared in this matter and will not be seeing the light of day. As far as classified information, this is fairly low level stuff.

7   resistance   2010 Dec 7, 4:11am  

Yes, pretty low level info. I don't see anything like spy names or nuclear secrets being released.

So far I think Wikileaks is doing the US a favor by making explicit some things the government might have wanted to say publicly, but couldn't.

From the WSJ: Donors in Saudi Arabia, for example, are described in a December 2009 cable from Secretary of State Hillary Clinton as "the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups world-wide."

Everyone should know that filling up the SUV is definitely funding terrorism. But that doesn't play well with SUV makers in the US, and pisses off the Saudis too, so the government never says it.

8   FortWayne   2010 Dec 7, 4:36am  

I think WL is doing a right thing. They provide American citizens with information about what our government is doing. Secrets that are kept from us, that should not be. And I praise such transparency... although i wish it came from the government not from the leaked sources.

9   pkennedy   2010 Dec 7, 5:00am  

He has stolen information that is classified and he's still releasing it. If I was given a painting that was stolen from the Louvre, and then claimed I have full rights to it because I didn't steal it. Does that make it rightfully mine now? No. These documents were private documents, classified at a government level that were stolen and given to this guy. He doesn't have rightful ownership of them and shouldn't have them.

Now he's threatening people with them? Who knows how much money this guy has spent and/or collected but I'm betting it's a decent amount. He's just milking this for the money at this point. If he wanted to release them he could release them but he's doing it one at a time. I don't really consider him a crusader, he's collecting up money, threatening banks now that they aren't letting him get a hold of it.

Is it "interesting" stuff for us to read? Sure. It's like entertainment for us.

The big difference here between this and something like watergate is the scale. We can handle banks going belly up. We can handle real estate crashing. We can handle unemployment. We can handle all kinds of situations, but put them *all* together and now we're in the trouble we were in 2008. Watergate was essentially a small group. Important group for sure, but small group. These documents are all encompassing and will hurt relations everywhere for a very long time.

It's one thing to lose ties with say Iran over leaked documents. Or maybe Saudi Arabia, maybe all those countries over there? But what about losing most of the world? And what individual is going to speak to the US frankly now? Now we're going to be trying to collect up information through 3rd party systems, hearsay, etc. While most of the world says the US isn't the most important country anymore, they are the ones that do most of the negotiating.

If I was a war monger in Africa, this would be the time to commit genocide at a whole new level. If more of these documents leak and the US is really undermined in the world, it's going to be party time over there. Europe will say stop it. Nato will say stop it. But that's it. Lots of words will be exchanged. Look at Serbia, back yard of Europe, and they didn't just sat around discussing it. To really put your foot down is risky, you could alienate yourself. No other country is willing to do that.

These documents released are "evidence" of what ends up on the grape vine. We knew about it before, we bitch about it, but did nothing. Now names are being added. We won't do anything, but it's going to cause severe world diplomatic damage.

10   Patrick   2010 Dec 7, 5:09am  

Read Richard Gates' comments about it all. Other countries will still deal with us. No one is too surprised about anything released.

11   pkennedy   2010 Dec 7, 5:30am  

No one currently. But only .3% of the documents have been released. Relations between many countries will be destroyed before this over. Not just with the US and those countries but countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran are likely to become more polarized and those guys have to live next to each other forever. It's like calling the police on your neighbors, and then the police announce it was you, and you've both got 30 year mortgages.

Releasing something specific to right some injustice is one thing. Just tossing out random documents on all kinds of topics does nothing but wreak havok.

12   Vicente   2010 Dec 7, 5:41am  

The name Cablegate baffles me. I picture a 1950's TeleType machine hammering out a message.

PENETRATED PARTY AS WAIT STAFF STOP KRUSCHEV SEEN SNORTING COKE WITH STALIN STOP FOUND DOCUMENTS IN COAT TOOK PHOTOS FORWARDING BY COURIER STOP

I recall growing up watching Mission Impossible the tape self-destructing after being played. It baffles me all this diplomatic sensitive stuff is on any kind of medium where army privates can just pick up copies.

I CANCELLED MY PAYPAL ACCOUNT TODAY.

Not that it makes any difference to PayPal, but it torques me they dumped him, so there.

13   pkennedy   2010 Dec 7, 6:11am  

Most of the material is collected to be coordinated by others. If you're dealing with dealing with Saudi Arabia and they say Iran is doing this, you can go find information. It should be used a collaborative tool, hopefully with security provisions to prevent people from being able to just yank everything, including documents they have no need for.

This isn't exactly super classified material here. It's useful material for diplomats and other agencies to pull information from, but with slightly more information included than the typical newspapers would normally release on a topic.

14   FortWayne   2010 Dec 7, 1:17pm  

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

But if recent reports are true… an ultimatum of “arrest me for [non-secret divulging charges] and I’ll leak even more….” this speaks more of ego and self-importance than any mission of truth. Besides if it were really only about getting the “truth” out there, why not release all files at once, not in piece-mail fashion, as was initially done.

You have to understand things from both sides. When leaks were released there were politicians out there calling to have him assassinated. Considering the history and the fact that changes of such are pretty high, he is stepping on some very powerful people... this is just insurance.

He would be stupid if he didn't do it. I would have done the same. That is what insurance is for. In business we also call this hedging.

P.S. Cancelled my paypal account too, I know it won't be a big deal to them... they won't notice it. But to me it's a matter of the principle.

15   kentm   2010 Dec 7, 3:18pm  

Right.

I believe that governments don't have the right to lie to and murder their citizens and that corporations don't have the right to pursue profit over humanity or with corruption as a tool. Laws apply to all of us.

...in an ideal world, anyway. But I believe that the wikileaks effort is helping us get closer to that better world.

An interesting web interview:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article26987.htm

16   Liz Pendens   2010 Dec 7, 10:14pm  

MasterCard site partially frozen by hackers in WikiLeaks 'revenge'
'Operation: Payback' hacks into MasterCard site over payment network's decision to cease taking donations to WikiLeaks

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/08/mastercard-hackers-wikileaks-revenge

17   Liz Pendens   2010 Dec 7, 10:22pm  

Wow, here's 2 more by the same group:

Hackers Attack, Take Down Site of Bank that Froze Assange Cash
Who knew that caving to government intimidation and the threat of bad p.r. could actually backfire? A group of anonymous online activists have knocked out the website of Post Finance, the Swiss bank that froze the assets of the Julian Assange Defense Fund. Operation Payback, which also launched an attack on PayPal this morning, pledged to go after any organization that "censors" WikiLeaks.

http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/381563/hackers_attack%2C_take_down_site_of_bank_that_froze_assange_cash/

18   elliemae   2010 Dec 8, 2:30am  

Bap33 says

I want to know about Area 51
I want to know who shot Kennedy
I want to know why Pee Wee Herman got in trouble wanking in a dark theater … not really.

1. It's in the middle of the desert. Drive north from Vegas, you'll make it there in a few hours.

2. Elvis, duh. The grassy knoll was made of green icing.

3. Peewee was a government conspiracy, unlike the previous two situations you mentioned. Highest levels - it was a slow operation that inched along but blew the cork off of the investigation into movie theater porn.

Ya'll know I can't resist a good masturbation joke. It was a handy opportunity.

19   Vicente   2010 Dec 8, 2:39am  

Oh please Area 51, is just window dressing. It's a classic misdirection when the actual aliens are all around us.

20   Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq   2010 Dec 8, 5:11am  

I'm not only for WikiLeaks, but I believe Pvt. Manning is a US Hero. He deserves the Congressional Medal of Honor. The powerful elites running the show will crucify him, but I see martyr potential. Assange is being elevated by his arrest.

The amount of corruption and illegal activity brought to light by WikiLeaks offers our nation a unique chance to correct some awful and terrible abuses of power. Americans should be thanking WikiLeaks.

Today's leaks describe how American employees for a no-bid subcontractor company for the military in Afghanistan purchase and use child sex slaves. In explicit detail. Extraordinary accounts and witnesses. The State Department knows about this, but nothing is done. This is a threat to National Security.

WikiLeaks is primary source reporting and our government leaks all of the time. It's just that mainstream media journalists tend to keep a lid on sources and not put the full primary evidence online for all to see in the effort to preserve secrets.

There is no governmental right to secrecy about criminal actions by those in power. If the government wanted to minimize WikiLeaks damage, they should never have picked a fight with Assange. Instead, they should have downplayed everything (like they are doing now). Launch a few special investigations and the media will move on.

21   Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq   2010 Dec 8, 5:24am  

pkennedy says

He has stolen information that is classified and he’s still releasing it. If I was given a painting that was stolen from the Louvre, and then claimed I have full rights to it because I didn’t steal it. Does that make it rightfully mine now? No. These documents were private documents, classified at a government level that were stolen and given to this guy. He doesn’t have rightful ownership of them and shouldn’t have them.

Bad analogy. The information remains with the US government. WikiLeaks did not remove or steal anything from US servers. Nor did they even copy anything. They simply distributed copies made by an unknown third party (suspected to be Prvt Manning).

pkennedy says

Now he’s threatening people with them? Who knows how much money this guy has spent and/or collected but I’m betting it’s a decent amount. He’s just milking this for the money at this point. If he wanted to release them he could release them but he’s doing it one at a time. I don’t really consider him a crusader, he’s collecting up money, threatening banks now that they aren’t letting him get a hold of it.

The world is full of rich assholes and it doesn't matter if Assange is an asshole or not. His motivation is completely irrelevant. The matter at hand is rampant corruption and illegal activity by the most powerful people in the world.

pkennedy says

Is it “interesting” stuff for us to read? Sure. It’s like entertainment for us.
The big difference here between this and something like watergate is the scale. We can handle banks going belly up. We can handle real estate crashing. We can handle unemployment. We can handle all kinds of situations, but put them *all* together and now we’re in the trouble we were in 2008. Watergate was essentially a small group. Important group for sure, but small group. These documents are all encompassing and will hurt relations everywhere for a very long time.

I don't find much entertainment in the exposed crimes. American subcontractors raping children?

We are not in trouble. The people running our government are in trouble. They need to get their shit together.

pkennedy says

It’s one thing to lose ties with say Iran over leaked documents. Or maybe Saudi Arabia, maybe all those countries over there? But what about losing most of the world? And what individual is going to speak to the US frankly now? Now we’re going to be trying to collect up information through 3rd party systems, hearsay, etc. While most of the world says the US isn’t the most important country anymore, they are the ones that do most of the negotiating.

I don't understand your argument. We have not lost ties with any nation. Hillary Clinton and Secretary of Defense Gates have said the impact of these leaks on national security are minimal.

pkennedy says

If I was a war monger in Africa, this would be the time to commit genocide at a whole new level. If more of these documents leak and the US is really undermined in the world, it’s going to be party time over there. Europe will say stop it. Nato will say stop it. But that’s it. Lots of words will be exchanged. Look at Serbia, back yard of Europe, and they didn’t just sat around discussing it. To really put your foot down is risky, you could alienate yourself. No other country is willing to do that.

This is very weak argument. Genocides occured before and continue in Africa regardless of WikiLeaks. In fact, WikiLeaks shows that the US Government is not likely to intervene in places like Africa for noble purposes. The government's actions are driven purely by commercial interests of the wealthy elite in this country.

pkennedy says

These documents released are “evidence” of what ends up on the grape vine. We knew about it before, we bitch about it, but did nothing. Now names are being added. We won’t do anything, but it’s going to cause severe world diplomatic damage.

Give me one example of the severe world diplomatic damage caused by WikiLeaks.

22   vain   2010 Dec 8, 8:34am  

"Sure, we should be a free nation and expose abuse, but that doesn’t mean we publish confidential information that puts Americans at risk of harm."

I somewhat can stand with you on that statement. But it doesn't seem like they want Assange regarding that. It seems like everyone wanted him dead as soon as he threatened to release Bank Of America (rumored to be BofA at least) documents. It seems like it's all about money.

23   pkennedy   2010 Dec 8, 8:52am  

We enforce laws as time goes by, historically. We pursue people who break the worst laws and then work back from there. We have cops ticketing people for speeding. That wouldn't even be on their radar over there as an issue, they've got much worse things.

Things that we consider as horrendous, they view as minor issues. They're working on rebuilding a society and working with a culture that is completely different from ours.

I read that article you mentioned about the children. I believe it came down to a party was hosted by a contractor, someone hired some children to be there, a government official found out journalist were going to publish it, wanted to block it and were discussing it with US diplomats. We aren't their justice system, we didn't do the hiring, we weren't there, we simply offered up some advice to just let it go. Hugely different.

Culturally that happens over there. They don't have the same laws we have. They don't enforce the same laws we enforce. It's not right here, and then we jump on the bandwagon saying it's complete crap we should arrest every single afghan person. We can't do that. Hence why the government doesn't want to get involved. You think we should be involved, the government knows that's how you're going to react and why this is classified. It's not going to help you sleep better, it's not going do anything for the afghans over there. It's a lose lose situation.

If you steal windows/office/whatever software and pirate it you can't claim "Well it was given to me, I don't know who's it was. It was stolen? really? How would I know that! I'm not thief!" If the documents say classified, US government and the government says they are theirs then you are dispersing the stolen documents, that is theft. Holding onto something that isn't yours if theft.

24   TechGromit   2010 Dec 8, 10:07am  

How do we even know all this stuff is real? I recall a line from the movie, "The People vs. Larry Flynt" where Larry claimed he has sex videos of congress members after refusing to reveal the source of a FBI drug sting operation in court. When asked by one of his employees do we have sex videos of congress members, Larry said, "They will believe anything I say".

The same thing applies here, now that wikileaks gives this guy credibility, he can insert pretty much anything he wants into the documents and people will believe it. He could type up some bullshit about alien landing cover ups in area 51 and toss them into the document pile. Someone will find it and instant credibility.

25   pkennedy   2010 Dec 8, 11:25am  

I just don't like how these people change every one of these around.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/dec/08/wikileaks-cables-shell-nigeria-spying
Title: WikiLeaks cables: Shell's grip on Nigerian state revealed

"The company's top executive in Nigeria told US diplomats that Shell had seconded employees to every relevant department and so knew "everything that was being done in those ministries". She boasted that the Nigerian government had "forgotten" about the extent of Shell's infiltration... [emphasis added]"

This is a comment someone left on Reddit about this, which sums it up pretty well:
"While this is no doubt concerning, Shell sending employees to assist the Nigerian government and then having the government forget to keep important things confidential from people known to be working for Shell is a bit different than "infiltrating" the Nigerian government. That implies they did it secretly, when this passage seems to suggest otherwise."

They turned one of these from Shell helping the government, to Shell owning and controlling the government through some voodoo. One sounds juicy, one sounds pretty lame.

26   nope   2010 Dec 8, 3:34pm  

A year or two from now people are going to look back at the cables that have been released so far and say "what the fuck is wikileaks again?"

I support WL -- I even donated 100 euro to the cause (assuming that Visa didn't squash my payment), but the hyperbole on both sides is staggering. On one hand we have people like sarah palin saying that assange should be murdered, and on the other hand we have people acting like the cables are The Most Important Revelation Ever.

Calm the fuck down, people. Knowing that someone thinks that someone else is an asshole isn't a big deal.

27   Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq   2010 Dec 9, 1:34am  

pkennedy says

I read that article you mentioned about the children. I believe it came down to a party was hosted by a contractor, someone hired some children to be there, a government official found out journalist were going to publish it, wanted to block it and were discussing it with US diplomats. We aren’t their justice system, we didn’t do the hiring, we weren’t there, we simply offered up some advice to just let it go. Hugely different.

You are minimizing the issue like it happened one time. The leaks show American workers over there routinely bought child sex slaves and boasted about it. These are criminal acts in Afghanistan and the United States.

pkennedy says

Culturally that happens over there. They don’t have the same laws we have. They don’t enforce the same laws we enforce. It’s not right here, and then we jump on the bandwagon saying it’s complete crap we should arrest every single afghan person. We can’t do that. Hence why the government doesn’t want to get involved. You think we should be involved, the government knows that’s how you’re going to react and why this is classified. It’s not going to help you sleep better, it’s not going do anything for the afghans over there. It’s a lose lose situation.

Culturally, it does happen very often, but it is against both Afghanistan laws and Sharia laws. This is precisely why we are losing the war against the Taliban. The Afghan people as a whole do not want rampant child rape, but only the Taliban offer enforcement of the laws.

Yes, the government is hiding facts so Americans support a war that is a lose/lose situation like you say. Here is the rub. The fucking shitbag decision makers are not risking their fat ass hides in Afghanistan. They sit in cushy little offices far away on the other side of the planet. It is our soldiers who pay the price, and they are dying every day in a war sabotaged by corporate greed.

The Afghan people are not stupid. They see the hypocracy of the American officials - say one thing, do another. The Taliban, on the other hand, do what they say and they mean business. The Taliban are outmatched in weapons, money, supplies, and everything else but they are going toe to toe with the world's lone superpower. It becomes pretty clear who to support.

The leaks are showing something else. America is getting its ass kicked by in Afghanistan by the Taliban. The question becomes - do we stay over there getting beaten like a whipped dog, or do we suck up our dignity and come home?

pkennedy says

If you steal windows/office/whatever software and pirate it you can’t claim “Well it was given to me, I don’t know who’s it was. It was stolen? really? How would I know that! I’m not thief!” If the documents say classified, US government and the government says they are theirs then you are dispersing the stolen documents, that is theft. Holding onto something that isn’t yours if theft.

Again, this is copy violation not theft. The original documents remain with the US government. Stealing requires the removal of something from somebody. Nothing was removed from the US. Copies were made to a flash drive.

The US government's classification of documents has no legal bearing on citizens from Australia. Does Sarah Palin also call for the death of people making copies of Iranian government documents? Americans "steal" these all the time and publish them to expose Iranian violations of nuclear proliferation agreements.

28   Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq   2010 Dec 9, 1:44am  

Kevin says

A year or two from now people are going to look back at the cables that have been released so far and say “what the fuck is wikileaks again?”

Ha, doesn't the US government wish! The political spin meisters finally got in charge of the situation and are spewing the crap idea that Wikileaks is unimportant.

Kevin says

I support WL — I even donated 100 euro to the cause (assuming that Visa didn’t squash my payment), but the hyperbole on both sides is staggering. On one hand we have people like sarah palin saying that assange should be murdered, and on the other hand we have people acting like the cables are The Most Important Revelation Ever.
Calm the fuck down, people. Knowing that someone thinks that someone else is an asshole isn’t a big deal.

The blockbuster revelations will have an impact. Frank and Susan American of Springfield America are going to hear about the problems with the war. Frank and Susan's son enlisted out of high school and he is finishing basic training for the Army.

Frank and Susan were comforted by the lies the American government propogated regarding the "successes" of the Afghanistan war. Weren't we on the verge of pushing the Taliban out of Afghanistan with the recent escalation?

Frank and Susan now read articles detailing the lies of the American government. They read how the Afghan people are turning against the American troops. They don't know what to believe anymore.

What is happening in Afghanistan directly affects the lives of millions of Americans. The hyperbole is justified.

29   RC2006   2010 Dec 9, 2:50am  

Wikileaks must be doing something right, look at the ones getting pissed off the most. If governments and corporations were more ethical this wouldn’t be an issue.

Sunshine will clean.

30   pkennedy   2010 Dec 9, 3:16am  

@socal

Actually you need to understand the culture over there, you have most of it wrong actually. It's boys that are being purchased, not girls. It's a cultural trend over there because of the way women are treated and hide and segregated off from the male population.

Something like 90% of afghans who were asked about 9/11 had no clue. These people aren't schooled, they don't get information from around the world, they don't know who the "US" is. It's probably just lore about this massive country to them. The fact is, the taliban over there are a mixed group. They say one thing, then hire the boys and do something else. Some group comes in offering legitimate help and assistance, and then the wacko's move in and start going wild with their extremism. They aren't looking for diplomacy, they're happy with whatever dictator comes in who doesn't abuse them. That is the mentality over there. It's a caste system and they aren't leaving their caste. Yes there are no castes in Islam, yes there are castes. It's like the people you see living in the ghetto over here, but they're given zero opportunities to leave, therefore they are stuck there. Being stuck there, they look for the best options for them and side with them. If the taliban offers them something today, they'll take it. When the taliban turns on them, they'll stop supporting them but also not go against them since they're above their caste. Then someone else has to come in (the US) and provide a better solution and they'll help them, without siding with anyone. The taliban in moderation are good. The US supported the taliban before, Pakistan supported them. Then they started to get extremists in there, and everyone started backing away. We hear about Pakistan supporting them, what is being supported are individuals. Some government officials support them, some don't. In general they say they don't but then individuals go behind the governments back and take other actions. It's tribal and dealing with tribal is difficult.

The problem is, culturally no one has any real experience with how life works out side of democracy and how a tribal system works. We have certain truths that we think are universal and they aren't. These documents just confuse and infuriate the masses because they simply don't understand. It takes going over there, and actually living among these various groups to start to understand these cultural differences which I've done. Without being there, it's almost impossible to fathom how their society could work.

These documents will hurt societies where honesty != trust. Where trust is separate from honesty. You trust your spouse, but your spouse lies daily to you. That is something people can't fully understand here, because trust goes hand in hand with honesty. You're an honest person, I trust you. That isn't how it works in those societies. Trust is built up over actions, but honesty is not a part of it. Now these documents are releasing honesty into many cultures where it's not a cultural value and they're going to create massive problems in the future.

If you think the governments actions are in line with what Gates comment about these documents doing no harm, then I would like to see what you would consider the government taking action being? The government is doing damage control with Gates, and taking action to try and put an end to this. Actions speak louder than words. Damage is being done.

31   FortWayne   2010 Dec 9, 3:42am  

He has stolen information that is classified and he’s still releasing it. If I was given a painting that was stolen from the Louvre, and then claimed I have full rights to it because I didn’t steal it.

Its a bad analogy. A better one would be, your company boss decided that he wants to go mass scam or murder some people and keeps that information on confidential paper. Yes, you would be stealing that information in order to expose it to the public. But that is your right and a privilege. You would be protected by the law for doing that. WikiLeaks did the same thing. Private Manning released information, WikiLeaks + Times + Guardian published it. Nothing wrong here.

32   Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq   2010 Dec 9, 4:25am  

@pkennedy

I know prepubescent boys are being purchased as part of Bacha Bazi. But the rape of children is not limited to boys; prepubescent girls are also being purchased and raped. The Americans in Afghanistan apparently prefer girls rather than boys.

You say two conflicting things. On the one hand, you claim the average Afghan has no real knowledge of the United States. You say the US is essentailly "lore" to them.

Then on the other hand, you claim Afghans will get angry because of what was released in the diplomatic cables. I highly doubt Afghans who are unfamiliar with the US are going to be sitting around reading WikiLeaks in Starbucks and parsing the nuances of US diplomacy.

For a culture that places no value in "honesty" why would they believe anything in the US cables? It's probably viewed as lies by the masses.

The people who ARE sitting around Starbucks and reading WikiLeaks are Americans. They ARE looking at US diplomatic actions in a new light. Gates damage control is focused on the place where the damage is the most - the United States public opinion.

I will agree with you 100% on the following statement: "It takes going over there, and actually living among these various groups to start to understand these cultural differences which I’ve done. Without being there, it’s almost impossible to fathom how their society could work."

Not a single decision maker in the US government has done what you've done. Our leaders are fighting a war in a country they have neither lived in nor understand. Frank and Susan American are going to wake up and question why their son died in some distant land for leaders who care only about money.

33   TechGromit   2010 Dec 9, 4:57am  

SoCal Renter says

Then on the other hand, you claim Afghans will get angry because of what was released in the diplomatic cables. I highly doubt Afghans who are unfamiliar with the US are going to be sitting around reading WikiLeaks in Starbucks and parsing the nuances of US diplomacy.

While it's true the average Afghan don't have access to a computer, much less Wikileaks, someone one does and they tell others and then they all get enraged with the United States sitting around Hookah lounges smoking drugs. While drinking alcohol is forbidden, drugs are perfectly acceptable.

34   Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq   2010 Dec 9, 5:42am  

TechGromit says

SoCal Renter says


Then on the other hand, you claim Afghans will get angry because of what was released in the diplomatic cables. I highly doubt Afghans who are unfamiliar with the US are going to be sitting around reading WikiLeaks in Starbucks and parsing the nuances of US diplomacy.

While it’s true the average Afghan don’t have access to a computer, much less Wikileaks, someone one does and they tell others and then they all get enraged with the United States sitting around Hookah lounges smoking drugs. While drinking alcohol is forbidden, drugs are perfectly acceptable.

If they are getting enraged, it has nothing to do with hearsay about diplomatic nuances. They are getting enraged because they see American subcontractors buying and raping children. Or they have family killed in erroneous air strikes. Or they are watching their own children being raped by American backed Karzai thugs.

This is like saying the South Vietnamese would not have turned on the US if the US media had stayed out of Vietnam. The truth is, the reprehensible actions by US forces, US companies, and the corrupt Nguyễn Văn Thiệu government caused the fall of Saigon.

WikiLeaks is our wake-up call. Time to leave Afghanistan for the Afghans to sort out.

35   FortWayne   2010 Dec 9, 6:33am  

SoCal Renter says

If [AFGANS] are getting enraged, it has nothing to do with hearsay about diplomatic nuances. They are getting enraged because they see American subcontractors buying and raping children. Or they have family killed in erroneous air strikes. Or they are watching their own children being raped by American backed Karzai thugs.
This is like saying the South Vietnamese would not have turned on the US if the US media had stayed out of Vietnam. The truth is, the reprehensible actions by US forces, US companies, and the corrupt Nguyễn Văn Thiệu government caused the fall of Saigon.
WikiLeaks is our wake-up call. Time to leave Afghanistan for the Afghans to sort out.

So very well said.

36   bob2356   2010 Dec 9, 6:49am  

SoCal Renter says

WikiLeaks is our wake-up call. Time to leave Afghanistan for the Afghans to sort out.

In 3000 years no has sorted out Afghanistan. I don't know why America believes it will be the first.

37   pkennedy   2010 Dec 9, 7:25am  

The comment I made about afghans knowing nothing about the US only stands with the lower castes. The higher ups, with money and education of course have this information. They are the elders and the politicians and they heavily rely on saying one thing here, doing another thing over there and promising something completely different somewhere else and keeping the peace the whole time.

That is somewhat of a problem. It's understood that they are lying to each other. Being caught is almost impossible over there due to the way the culture handles these situations. It's fascinating to watch the language that is used. Nothing is set in stone. I could say I went out for coffee with you yesterday and you could talk to the person I lied to all day and they would never figure out you were covering for me and the most interesting aspect is I wouldn't even have to tell you about my lie. The language you use every day covers for peoples lies you've never even met. It's truly amazing to watch. And of course why we get into trouble. We go and "verify" facts, but our verification procedures all fail over there. Hence the army sides with the wrong people. Uses the wrong information. Helps the bad guys. Hands over money to a janitor thinking they're buying protection.

These wires show that the diplomats ARE aware of what is happening, and are playing within the rules of the culture over there and/or ignoring things that simply can't be handled and are minor in comparison to other issues. Now americans read them, and put on their thinking caps and say that is all wrong! When in fact it's not. It's being handled how it has to be handled, but it's not pretty. If the public gets their way, they'll try and bring back American cultural norms and re implement them and set the whole thing back 5 years.

@bob2356
Afghanistan has essentially been a toll booth for 3000 years. Collecting tolls on anyone who passes through their land with goods. Basically surviving that way. So yes, it's unlikely we're going to change that aspect. They hide when it's necessary and come out only when a toll needs to be collected.

38   FortWayne   2010 Dec 9, 8:28am  

bob2356 says

SoCal Renter says

WikiLeaks is our wake-up call. Time to leave Afghanistan for the Afghans to sort out.

In 3000 years no has sorted out Afghanistan. I don’t know why America believes it will be the first.

The mission is to setup a puppet government, not sort things out. However, I don't think it is possible.

39   artistsoul   2010 Dec 9, 8:47am  

ChrisV says

The mission is to setup a puppet government, not sort things out.

Bingo...then exit stage left. That's probably the reality. I think that Obama just doesn't want to be seen as abandoning the region as warmongers have done in the past. It's so blasted expensive though...and to what end? He should get every Afghan a laptop and internet access. Let them educate themselves on the web. Information is a great equalizer. It'd be cheaper anyway.

40   Bap33   2010 Dec 9, 9:57am  

I like the leaked info on man-made global warming .... oh, wait, the Times didn't like that leak .... it was "gathered illegally". Odd huh?

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