patrick.net

Kaptur and Sherman are heros.

The Original Bankster Says:
pics of Russia in the 80s

They seem happier and less stressed out than sheeple in the Bay Area. :-)

This is an article and a video that shows the ecological disaster associated with foreclosure:

People are literally leaving houses full of perfectly good belongings that are simply dumped in a big container and carried to the landfill.

http://kcet.org/socal/2008/09/foreclosure-alley.html

Foreclosures will someday end, and people will recover, but landfill is forever.

Presumably: Chaney, Paulson.

StuckinBA
How would you like to see this in your household:

BA Jr: Pa, it ain't Halloween yet. Why is there a head on a pitchfork in the yard.
BA : Son, you must learn this good. When something real bad happens, there's always someone to blame. And in these United States, you'll get ahead by making sure it ain't yourself. And when you find someone, skewer em' but good. Pops is just stickin' Hanky Panky Hank here.
BA Jr: OK Paw. Mrs. Johnson gave me detention yesterday and it wasn't my fault. Can give give me a pitchfork so I can stick her? Can I, Pa?

The biggest problem in this country is that everyone is looking for someone to blame. Some members of Congress are just a reflection of the deteriorating values in this country. So I did not join in the discussion in this site to debate the value of the bailout, or moan about the $3K it's supposed to cost each of us. I just hate the pitchfork at the start of this discussion. It makes me wonder when they will break out the noose and white hoods.
Anyway, I am done with this site. Disappointed, since I have followed it for a while now.

Kona_three,

I agree we should not ONLY blame Paulson. Why, the real estate agents and the rest of the REIC(tm) are primarlily to blame. The real estate agents were the foot-soldiers of greed, and the ultimate weapons of mass depression.

A housing site is certainly irrelivant in the broader context of what is now happening.
However, there ARE real bandits here. And they are still making money in THIS bailout. UP TO NOW they created and gamed a system. NOW they have moved into making us look likechumps and idiots.
Try RGE monitor.
Try Mish.
Read anything put out by Sherman.

Of course, you are free to choose your own media sources and draw your own conclusions.

But let me leave you with one last bit of housing on this housing site:

Even if the government offers fixed 5.25% loans, the market MUST return to historic levels. Buying anytime in the near future will mean this:

1. You will lose at least 20% as the market continue to correct (well, depending on where you buy). This will make you not be able to sell or move unless you want to realize that loss. This is very risky in the current job market.

2. The looming global contraction will reveal a number of businesses that could only exist in world of cheap credit. Even state governements will be under massive stress. I say this because everyone must seriously assess just how safe their emplyment is.

We are officially in the next inning...

http://biz.yahoo.com/cnnm/081003/100308_california_crisis.html

What a surprise... CA blew all of our mind-boggling property tax over the last 8 years. On what I wonder? It certainly wasn't the roads...

Over the next couple weeks, America will begin to realize that our entire government is no better off than WaMu was, or a distressed homeowner is. They just have more freedom with their accounting.

So much for "safe" government jobs.

According to C-span.org, the vote on HR-4124 is *supposed* to take place "about" 1230pm EST, meaning in 2 minutes (note that the timestamp on this blog lags by 1 hour).

kona_three :

If you are now saying that we are just a bunch of whiners who are moaning "It's someone else's fault" - then what did you really read/learn on this site for last 2-3 years ?

We have a socio-political system in this country that needs to be fixed. Instead of accepting whatever our lords throw at us, we are exercising our democratic right to express our dissatisfaction.

We have discussed ad infinitum on this site about who is to blame for the housing bubble. A bubble of this size requires participation from a large number of diverse players and we all know who they are.

The anger against Paulson is about the proposed "fix". I hate that solution, and I am doing whatever little I can do to oppose it. Someone may love that solution and is free to support it. This freedom to disagree about the correctness of the solution and motives behind it is precisely what makes this country democratic. This has nothing to do about passing the blame onto someone else.

Nobody is blaming your hero for the bubble that happened. We are outraged by his "solution" - which is going to make matters even worse IMO.

Duke,
One of my favorite sites is the PrudentBear. I am certainly not buying a house yet, and over the past year have moved more than 80% of all my assets into cash, foreign currency (not Euro, since I don't buy things that are high priced) gold, and selected convertible preferreds. I am certainly not a bull at this point.

I have no problem at all with the markets and economy correcting. Business cycles are part of the climate of a capitalist system. Selfishly, I do want to be able to pick things up for cheap(er) later on even. But I do not want to see a dislocation which would destroy the US economy. No question NAR, greedy loan brokers, etc should be swept from the system. But there are many babies in this bathwater, small businesses built up by people who work their way up rather than speculate their way up. My judgment is that this plan will not solve the downward correction, but will help prevent a massive dislocation that will not let these innocent parties the time to adjust and survive.

The Original Bankster:
The way I understand it, NO ONE who took out a mortgage, or took out a HELOC, and is unable to pay is forgiven and does not have to pay it back. Only difference is now they would owe the money to the government instead of the bank.
When this bill first came out, one of the things the DEMs wanted to add on was "mortgage relief" for the people who bought houses they could not afford. I totally disagree and wrote to Feinstein (a lot of good that does, I know) to voice my displeasure.

The biggest 'regulations", for want of a better word, wrong with this debacle is 1) people were allowed to purchase a home with no money down and 2) people are allowed under the law to walk away from their obligations with nothing more than a rap on their credit rating which counts for less these days. If I ruled this country, no one would be allowed to buy a house without 20% down, and if they walked away, I would take their stock, rip open their safe deposit box and would consider going after their mother's and grandmother's assets (kidding).

So no way am I advocating letting the dumbasses and/or speculators off the hook. If they all croaked, that would not jeopardize my world all that much. But I figure we need the banks, and good people need some credit to tide them through this mess.

Wow, I was going to joke a couple of days ago that Wells Fargo would own Citi in a year or two... Looks like Wachovia is more desirable without Citi's dead wood. Nice to see Wells (and Buffet) take the bullet instead of the FDIC (and taxpayers).

WTF is this U.S. Treasury, supplementary financing account
Nothing new here. What I posted previously: The Treasury Department announced today the initiation of a temporary Supplementary Financing Program at the request of the Federal Reserve. The program will consist of a series of Treasury bills, apart from Treasury's current borrowing program, which will provide cash for use in the Federal Reserve initiatives. Don't worry, they'll pay it back (maybe when the underlying collateral reaches maturity :-)

I'm now convinced the drop on Monday was contrived.

263-171 ???

I'm not surprised: The rescue bill passed, and the market immediately starts DROPPING.

it was the wooden arrow tax break that put it over the edge I think.

oooo, it's dropping like a rock.

They're not even going to give American people 4 hours before they let them know they were tricked.

OK Guys

Just what "regulations" do you think either party will support?

20% min down payment on a home? No more than 20 year mortgage? These rules would put downward pressure on home prices, and politicos seem to be saying that lowering house prices is bad. Besides, for Paulson's bailout plan to allow for the recoup of tax payers money, home prices would have to increase.

Change the bankruptcy laws to allow anyone to walk away while still keeping house and car? That would cause a shutoff of loans and credit cards to the low end monthly payment crowd. Forcing people to spend only as they earn would hurt a system they believe runs on credit.

Even so, we may see some laws passed that will limit people's ability to screw themselves by taking on too much credit. Those laws, however, would soon be overturned. The laws would be written "to protect from predatory lenders" and later overturned "to allow the lower class equal access to credit." After all, what lawmaker can resist his constituents appetite for unearned riches.

I hope there is so much pork in that bill that Wall Street gets nothing more than a $1.98 ( total ) and car fare. Better yet, make 'em walk.

Wow. 263-171.

We are so screwed!

They’re not even going to give American people 4 hours before they let them know they were tricked.

I can see it now. An exec of a bailed out Wall Street firm stops his Bentley at the light, rolls down his window and calls over a pedestrian. When the pedestrian approches the window, the exec says "Thanks for paying for my bonus!" He then blows cigar smoke in the pedestrians face, rolls up the window and drives off.

I wonder how Ms Nancy is going to spin the Dow drop after the vote? Maybe she will just say "If we are not re-elected, we all have nice job offers from Wall Street firms. You all can kiss my tucked and lifted bum."

Headset,

I think new regulations will mainly be of the sort that applies to financial companies, or at least I hope so.

--leverage limits for banks and investment banks must be by law and not by board action

--Credit Default Swaps must trade on exchanges

--Bonds of all kinds must trade on exchanges

--CDS outstanding denominational value cannot exceed underlying bond denomational value

and so on. That would be a start.

One of the main problems of US government is that entirely too many decisions and rules are left to a "board" which is appointed by the executive branch and can easily be corrupted by the financially powerful.

The other main problem is of course our truly disastrous election system of which I have spoken at length before.

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2008/roll681.xml

Roll call.

Well, we all know what a camel is; a horse by committee.

I think the Plunge Protection is putting the floor in right now. The action is incredible suspicious.

Justme,

Good point. Those items you mentioned will protect buyers of the financial products and limit the pool of money banks use to lend.

But won't we still have Fannie/Freddie to buy up low quality loans?

Sure, Fannie and Freddie should be regulated, too. The regulation should say that the loan limits should be locked to the case-shiller median reached at the bottom of the cycle, and then adjusted upward only according to inflation.

As a side effect, this will incentivise the government to report true inflation numbers, since the REIC will force them to do so. 1/2 ;-)

And yeah, no less than 10% down under ANY circumstances, and 20% as the norm.

The traitorous, sold out, pork loving bastards that switched from No to Aye:

> Abercrombie
> Alexander
> Baca
> Barrett (SC)
> Berkley
> Biggert
> Boustany
> Braley (IA)
> Buchanan
> Carson
> Cleaver
> Coble
> Conaway
> Cuellar
> Cummings
> Dent
> Edwards (MD)
> Fallin
> Frelinghuysen
> Gerlach
> Giffords
> Green, Al
> Hirono
> Hoekstra
> Jackson (IL)
> Jackson-Lee (TX)
> Kilpatrick
> Knollenberg
> Kuhl (NY)
> Lee
> Lewis (GA)
> Mitchell
> Myrick
> Ortiz
> Pascrell
> Pastor
> Ramstad
> Ros-Lehtinen
> Rush
> Schiff
> Schmidt
> Scott (GA)
> Shadegg
> Shuster
> Solis
> Sullivan
> Sutton
> Terry
> Thompson (CA)
> Thornberry
> Tiberi
> Tierney
> Wamp
> Watson
> Welch (VT)
> Weller
> Woolsey
> Wu
> Yarmuth

The lone hero that switched from Aye to Nay:

McDermott

Fuzzy:

"I think the Plunge Protection is putting the floor in right now."

I don't think the traders know what to think or where to jump. About all I see across the board, stocks, commodities, currency, is indecision. Yeah stocks have given back what they had gained today, plus a little right now, but no really dramatic moves, a blip on currencies that actually stengthened the dollar just after the vote, before returning back onto the curve it was tracing earlier today, commodities mixed to slightly down overall, after being simply mixed earlier.

So did the traders expect the bill not to pass? I doubt it, unless they were all buying on rumor, selling on news.

But the Plungers kicking in? don't think so. They'd have to be working right across the board(s). You see any "Index" buying?

I await the first serious purchase decisions of our new Overlord, Hank the Gold Man, before the markets really start jumping out of their skins. 7500 anyone?

I wonder if Bush is going to simply skip the photo-op and just fax in his signature .

In any case, I bet Paulson and Bernanke have already worked out out what they are going to be doing this weekend.

Already Signed it. Couldn't wait for the fax.

Now we're starting to see negative press on the bailout bill. Fuckers.