patrick.net

People argue about things without defining the terms. If you don't use agreed upon terms, then you may as well not bother talking at all.

Example:
I say conservatives are pro-rape. Let's jail all of our republicans!

This does not work. Simply because there are people who could be construed to fall under the 'conservative' banner in *some* context in some backward nation where rape is considered an appropriate punishment for, say, not covering enough of your body in cloth while in public, does not mean that republicans in the USA who call themselves 'conservative' support this.

That's an obvious one, but it's less obvious when we talk about typical issues in US politics.

Looks to me like there's some confusion about 'liberals'. On the one hand there are people who are labeled 'liberal' by other people. Then we have people who label themselves liberal. Let's clarify by going straight to the heart of the matter - Patrick.net may not be a perfect representation of the US liberal population but it may still provide useful information.

So, Liberals ONLY (ie, please don't post her Shrek! Instead, make another thread just like this for conservatives/bush/republicans), what is YOUR opinion of Obama and, separately, Democrats in general?

I think he's going to steal from the rich and give it all to me through gubment handouts. Then I can retire and live the fat life without ever working! Ah, the liberal ideals ...

Kidding of course.

My opinion:
Obama - He talks the talks that us liberals like - by supporting gays in the military, by criticizing non-defensive wars, by talking about reforming the sad state of health insurance in this country, by supporting stem cell research, and by supporting abortion.
In reality: Why aren't our troops at home, either as civilians or doing public works projects? Why did it take so long to allow gays to openly serve ... maybe there's a good reason to take our time on this one. Why didn't he take a hard stand on health care - he went in with good ideas, but in the ends the republicans seemed to get what they wanted, and I feel more screwed than ever. And WTF is up with all these bailouts? Let these failed companies die quickly - take that bailout money and use it to temporarily employ the people who lose their job in some public works programs. If you're going to save any company, a car manuf is a good company to save though - I think it's worthwhile to do this, provided there are no executives who take home pay (fire them and take their salary from the last few years for all I care - provided they have more than 1m in assets, they can afford to get screwed to save the company they ran into the ground). I'm sure it's more complicated than all of this, but I haven't seen good excuses for these failures.
The above also reflects the *general* opinion of *every* self-identified liberal friend I've had political talks with.
The above in a nutshell: We're disappointed but still hoping because there's not much left to do

Democrats: There are exceptions, but what 'democrat' goes to the voting booth thinking that he's voting for someone with a real sense of ethics? I always feel like I'm voting for the wolf-in-sheep-clothing who will at least espouse, and perhaps even pursue, a few things that are important for me. Democratic candidates don't oppose a womans right to an abortion and in my lifetime have seemed to be slightly less war-hungry. Slightly! I'm finding it hard to say anything else very nice about this party.

And finally, my own definition of liberalism in our culture (perhaps I'm using the wrong word?):

A political philosophy marked by a desire to see the following -

*free access to equal, QUALITY education for all young adults and children. Nothing here says the rich can't hire private teachers to get the absolute best - but let's not short change all the poor black kids simply because we shortchanged their black parents, who we shortchanged simply of THEIR black parents, who we shortchanged even after we stopped enslaving them. Poor neighborhood should not equal poor education and a quick trip to a life of poverty. There may not be an easy and fair solution, but we have to solve this. This is not about people 'getting what they deserve', it is about making future generations more functional - and it will surely involve giving extra to people who don't seem to deserve it (and really don't - you may be a product of your childhood, but that won't change the fact that you're a crappy parent, if you are one - and it doesn't change the fact that we as a society benefit from changing this self-perpetuating situation).

*free access to basic health care for all. (keyword - basic - no one is saying the homeless guy should have wads of hundred dollar bills spent on him to help him deal with his arthritis or for ED medication)

*freedom from racism, sexism, religious oppression (including forfeiture of a right to an abortion - this is a religious issue in my mind, I've never met a non-christian who opposed abortion, though surely some exist)

*fair taxation, meaning you are taxed in some way related to your benefits from society. How this is accomplished is debatable but in general I think liberals agree that there are far too many loopholes that allow rich people and corps to greedily pocket an even larger percentage of their money. As a middle class person, I don't feel that the burden of my taxes on my is too large. Why can't rich people pay at least the same percentage of their capital gains that I pay on my hard earned salary, if not much more? After all, profit made on investments is entirely different from profit made on hard labor. Give me a million dollars to invest and I can turn a sizable profit - without quitting my day job or giving up my evening hobbies.

* Freedom of political expression (not incl comments that call for violence - let the KKK rally but wait on the sidelines and jail them when they say that people who kill black people). We already have this, though some fear our freedom is being eroded.

* Freedom to bear arms. We already have it - so liberals don't talk about it much. But I've never ever met a liberal person who wanted to ban guns, aside from things like RPGs and automatic weapons. On handguns, we can all agree. I think liberals are OK with waiting periods and background checks and restrictions on convicted violent criminals.

* Equal representation. This is a complicated issue, and rarely talked about in these terms. And it ties in with other topics. It's worth mentioning, however, that 'liberals' don't want corporations controlling politics.

* Environmental justice. I don't think liberals could agree on much here, other than the overall goal. Some of us support nuclear, some oppose, some support oil drilling, some only support responsible oil drilling, no one is really comfortable with the idea of companies being able to dump toxic waste into a river that other people drink from, though.

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Anyway, that's how I would define these terms and rate these political parties. Perhaps other people can contribute to this with their own liberal perspectives. Then, when an internet troll says something like 'liberals just want to take money from the hard-working rich and successful so they don't have to work', we can point to this thread and say 'no, you dumbass, you are thinking of HOME BURGLARS not liberals'.

#politics