By surfer-x follow 2006 Jan 22, 8:05am 1 link 8,962 views 63 comments
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Why all this RED/BLUE, CON/LIB anger?
Are we at a new phase—
during the housing bubble?
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The realtor himself was selling his house and was telling me how house prices always go up.
If prices always go up why is he selling? He should be taking equity, getting more NAAVLPs, and buying more and more.
This blog has gone a little too “hate Boomer”.
I do not share this sentiment. I find no particular reason to hate boomers.
That said, I do see future conflicts between boomers and the younger generation. We need to find a way to profit from that.
Jan. 20 (Bloomberg) -- What if today's children grew up and repudiated their parents' debts?
See http://www.bloomberg.com/ under "Insight and Commentary"
"Our kids face an 'odious debt,' wrote Arnott, founder of Research Affiliates LLC in Pasadena, California, who helps manage mutual funds including the Pimco All Asset Fund. This is, he says, 'a debt burden which they had no role in voluntarily accepting, and for which they've garnered little benefit.' "
Hey Peter P
I got one! How about a business that produces live funeral pyres for the mourners of the recently deceased who get drunk,stoned and run amok in general during the event. Sort of like the Hunter S Thompson gig in Woody Creek only on a grand scale. Soon,all the movie stars with more money than brains will want one bigger and better than the last at which point franchise it out and walk away.
Who said the following?
"No, I cannot afford San Diego anymore since I sold my home, and not at the top of the market. I can be bitter about it or feel stupid, or be angry that the market didn’t behave rationally, ***but I’m too happy enjoying my new home, an exciting cool city in the global south***."
Surfer-X said in response:
"Let me paraphrase, I’ve got mine, if you can’t get yours, that is your fault, enjoy your life. How about those that despite their best efforts, getting engineering degrees etc, are kept from participating because of fraud, greed and just people being assholes in general? How about that?"
"How about those that don’t “expect” fuck all, but worked their fucking asses off, paying for their own school, and when they finally get that piece of shit degree realize that it was all built on fucking lies, that the fucking insiders have screwed the pooch so hard that you’ll be a fucking slave to the man the rest of your life."
"How about that?"
"I’m glad you got lucky, speak Spanish, and have a skill that allowed you to flee this fucked place. Really, I am."
Right on the $$$...money.
Anger is when some eco-terrorist burns down a 9,600 sq. ft. mansion up in Seattle. Did anyone see some of that footage? It was soooo big the smoldering wreckage had to be filmed from the air! No sane person would approve of that and I've gotta believe that the "perps" are really nothing more than vandals and "pyros". I'll bet there is some video footage somewhere, a fire that size could have been seen from space. Now THAT is anger/unresolved issues! Me? Mostly I'm annoyed.
newsfreak makes some good points and I love the whole "Hell no we won't buy your $hitbox" thing. While a few younger folks have jumped on the flip, churn and burn bandwagon, demographics dictate that the bubble is primarily another boomer creation. It is they who are angry because all non-boomers exist only to serve. They're proud of their defiance of the war/draft but have no respect for your right to dissent. Boomers alone hold the monopoly on change. "Change" is good (when it suits their designs/wants). Change is bad (when it puts the slightest crimp in their lifestyle). How else could they argue that 15/20 times income is a "fair" price for a home? Pay half of your income on a mortgage payment? Be in unreal debt until death? Boomers DON'T CARE! Just shut the F up, pony up and pay up so I can downsize with a nice pile. Once they've "cashed out" do you think boomers will give a rat's ass about the overall health of the housing market? Hell no. They'll get motor homes and evade taxes altogether, just look around.
I don’t buy into the notion that the RE bubble is a boomer plot. I don’t blame boomers more than the WWII generation which guarded their social security benefits and also largely made out from the bubble with reverse-mortgages.
Much of the GI Generation didn't make out at all from the RE boom...because they are dead. You are confusing them with the Eisenhower/Silent generation which were too young to fight during the war, but born before the Boom. This generation shares most common values with the previous, but they were more seriously affected by the 60s in terms of divorce rates, consumer spending, and ills of alcoholism and drug (usually pharmaceuticals) addiction.
Of course there is no clandestine "Boomer Plot", but it is undeniable that the Boomer generation was able to extract far more value than they ever contributed in every quantifiable term. Even this, in and of itself, doesn't bother me. What does is the seemingly uniform hypocricy and self-entitlement that the Boomer gen shares. It's one thing to be lucky and gracious. It's altogether another to be lucky and a fuckface about it. (Thus the standard Boomer response to younger gens: if you don't like things, go change them! Not that we ever did, but we'll pretend as much and proclaim ouselves prophets).
"I don’t buy into the notion that the RE bubble is a boomer plot." --PolishKnight
The housing bubble was no "plot" by anyone. It's just a byproduct of cheap money; low interest rates and all these exotic new mortgage products turned real estate into the hot asset class. Once the snowball got rolling downhill it got bigger and bigger and gathered momentum. It's your typical historical bubble; a lot of things converge to start them inflating, but once the upside momentum forms pychology takes hold and away we go.
Anyway, most definitely NOT a Boomer "plot." The thing is though, Boomers are the ones who made out like bandits in this thing. Think about it, most of them already owned homes and were well-positioned to buy a second home (i.e. they have MONEY). If you're already in and a bubble blows up it's akin to getting free money dumped in your lap. And free money is exactly how many Boomers have treated it--just look at all the cash-out refi's that have fueled consumer spending.
And of course, while the Boomers benefit, the people who are hurt are young Gen-X'ers such as myself who are early in starting their careers. Even if we are "successfull" we often don't yet have the cash saved up to jump in to the housing market. And once that housing train left the station it is GONE. Anyway, most of us that haven't bought by now are priced out and/or have realized it's a bubble and will wait. Hence the demand erosion we have right now which is slowing the market. I've said it before and I'll say it again: prices alone have peaked the housing market. That's kinda scary since interest rates are still historically very low.
So finally, I think what I just wrote illustrate a big part of HOW the bubble is fomenting inter-generational angst and bitterness. Add to that all the un-funded social program liabilities and the FACT that Gen-X will see NOTHING of all this money we are paying into Social Security and you're damn right we are royally pissed. What will happen? A lot of us will no doubt lock our old Boomer parents in nursing homes and throw away the key because a lot of us will likely grow more resentful over time.
Interesting times we live in...
"Don’t forget about the 1/2 mil. in fun and prizes!" -DinOR
No, I won't forget; I do agree that the 2-year capital gains exemption is a big contributing factor to the bubble. I am willing to bet that there will be legislation to repeal that exemption post bubble.
As a real world example, I know someone who had lived and worked in SF for years and was a happy renter. She works for a tech company and is a reasonably successful Gen-X'er. She finally got sick of renting and bought a condo in one of the "developing" areas of the East Bay. I ran into her about 6 months ago and asked her how she liked East Bay living. She said that she really missed living in The City wasn't enjoying her new 'hood too much. I said, you know you can always sell and move back to renting in The City if you are unhappy there, I'm sure you're place must have appreciated enough to cover the transaction costs by now. And she said "it has, but I have to wait 2 years to avoid the taxes." So that was 6 months ago and I haven't seen her since, but I guess she might end up stuck there now because the market is certainly turning in the Bay Area; even The Chronicle is finaly admitting it:
To address the red/blue anger issue: I don't like it. I think it's unnecessarily divisive to our country. I think most of the "divide" is manufactured by our Politicians and fueled by the mainstream media. Divisiveness is an impediment to our progress as a Nation.
I think our current Political situation is pathetic. The Republicans are not doing a good job with the power they have, and the Democrats seem to be a bunch of spineless wimps with no real alternatives to offer. We need at least one third party to establish itself as a credible Political force to allay this whole "Left vs. Right" thing we've got going on now.
John McCain is basically the only Politican in Washington that I have any semblance of respect for. Maybe Barak Obama.
Add to that all the un-funded social program liabilities and the FACT that Gen-X will see NOTHING of all this money we are paying into Social Security and you’re damn right we are royally pissed.
Perhaps this is why I am an libertarian with a conservative slant. ;)
Too bad there will never be enough political support to abolish the social security system. There ought to be a way for people to opt out of the system.
Considering that SS is a (sort of) defined-benefit pension system, it should be replaced by a 401(k) type system. We may risk the inflation of some other bubbles though.
"Could you elaborate please? What should the Republicans be doing?" --PolishKnight
I don't want to get too far off topic as I don't come here to discuss politics, so I'll just say this regardings what the Republicans should be doing: how about practicing a little bit of that Fiscal Conservatism they used to support, instead of creating the biggest Government in history and running up debt like a bunch of drunken hookers? You all already know I don't have anything positive to say about the Democrats either, so no one please accuse me of being "Partisan." Anyway, that's all I have to say about Politics.
Hope immigration will save the day? Think again...
Hope immigration will save the day? Think again
California got it all wrong. Instead of tapping talents from the world, it is encouraging illegal immigrantion from Third World country. No wonder it is fast becoming a Third World state with First World welfare.
Additional question (respond by email if you like): Would you support then the republicans trashing federal education funding among other things to exercise that “fiscal responsibility”? When I hear leftists in general say “fiscal responsibility”, that’s usually code for “raise taxes through the roof.”
There is no incentive to reduce spending for either party.
One party wants higher tax for some.
One party wants lower tax for some.
They tend to spend on different thing.
Looks like most everything that needed to be said on the Boomer vs. Gen-X/Y generational "war" has already has been said here, so I'll just highlight a classic pro-Boomer argument and my favorite responses to them:
Some people just make all the right moves and it pays off for them. That’s how I see it.
I guess the point is that it’s not always easy to come to terms with others having so much and yourself having relatively little....This blog has gone a little too “hate Boomer”. So far the boomer hate arguments seem to be a stretch. I hear some pretty gross generalizations.
My favorite responses:
Boomers alone hold the monopoly on change. “Change” is good (when it suits their designs/wants). Change is bad (when it puts the slightest crimp in their lifestyle). How else could they argue that 15/20 times income is a “fair” price for a home? Pay half of your income on a mortgage payment? Be in unreal debt until death? Boomers DON’T CARE! Just shut the F up, pony up and pay up so I can downsize with a nice pile. Once they’ve “cashed out” do you think boomers will give a rat’s ass about the overall health of the housing market? Hell no. They’ll get motor homes and evade taxes altogether, just look around.
Of course there is no clandestine “Boomer Plot”, but it is undeniable that the Boomer generation was able to extract far more value than they ever contributed in every quantifiable term. Even this, in and of itself, doesn’t bother me. What does is the seemingly uniform hypocricy and self-entitlement that the Boomer gen shares. It’s one thing to be lucky and gracious. It’s altogether another to be lucky and a fuckface about it. (Thus the standard Boomer response to younger gens: if you don’t like things, go change them! Not that we ever did, but we’ll pretend as much and proclaim ouselves prophets).
Let me paraphrase, I’ve got mine, if you can’t get yours, that is your fault, enjoy your life. How about those that despite their best efforts, getting engineering degrees etc, are kept from participating because of fraud, greed and just people being assholes in general? How about that? How about those that don’t “expect” fuck all, but worked their fucking asses off, paying for their own school, and when they finally get that piece of shit degree realize that it was all built on fucking lies, that the fucking insiders have screwed the pooch so hard that you’ll be a fucking slave to the man the rest of your life. How about that? I’m glad you got lucky, speak Spanish, and have a skill that allowed you to flee this fucked place. Really, I am
It's true that "life isn't fair" and that no one should feel automatically entitled to wealth just because it was that way for your parents or grandparents. It's also true that this mindset is very easy to wear when the world and everything in it was handed to you on a silver platter. Personally, I don't "expect" a free ride in life --just a fair shot at living a decent life through the sweat of my own brow. I'll do the rest thank you. All I ask from the previous generation is to NOT rig the damned game so I'm totally f@cked right from the start.
It's true that not all Boomers are "Me-Generation" hedonisitc parasites bent on sucking every last bit of marrow out of the American bone before it gets tossed to the next generation. It's also true that there are plenty of selfish, greedy-ass Gen-X/Y who are just like mom n' pop ("spawn of Satan" as surfer-X likes to call them). Even so, as many have pointed out, enough Boomers (and their progeny) actually DO fit this generalization enough that it's fair game. Sheer numbers alone multiply this strong generational tendency and lend credibility to the stereotype. If you are a Boomer and don't fit this description, my congratulations. You are atypical and should be proud of it.
Yeah my parents were Eisenhowers/Silents and while they were not hippies, they might as well have been. We grew up with the flag, big Christmases, going to the library as a rite of passage at about age 5 (and getting our own library card!) and so on, all that All-American square stuff, but by the time we were reaching adolescence it was all falling apart, badly. They might as well have been fucked up hippies, as far as their responsibilities to their children, to society, and to themselves, they were some fucked up units.
My story's about the same with my Eisenhower/Silent parents. I actually feel very sorry for that generation in many ways (even though they do enrage me in their myopic approach to politics at times). They were wedged in between the Greatest Generation and the Boomers. How could they have come out anything but screwed up? Like you said, they started off with a functioning system, strong institutions, and optimism; only to emerge out the other end with latchkey keys, forced-dual incomes, rampant inflation and divorce rates, all while the drug addled Boomers were running around everywhere "selling out and dropping in", making them feel inadequate and left behind by it all.
"We didn't start the fire..." my ass. Sure, Boomers didn't *start* the fires, but they sure had an orgy of a time throwing every incendiary thing they could find on the flames. They're still doing it today, thus these never ending frickin "culture wars red/blue state bullshit".
And to think, there are real problems out there to solve. But don't hold your breath waiting for that oversized generation of prophets to solve any of them. (Guess we'll have to do it ourselves. At least I and most my genX collegues won't lose a tear when we have to get brutal about it).
--rant over-- How about some RE topics?
My usually bored G/F had this to say about the whole boomer orgy. "they used to pride themselves on sticking it to the man, but now they are the man and are sticking it to everyone else" and "they are selling everything they can get their hands on".
At least I and most my genX collegues won’t lose a tear when we have to get brutal about it
How can genX get brutal against a group that out-votes everything else?
My delusional optimism here: While they're fighting culture wars, fragmenting themselves into oblivion, rendering even the once undeniable AARP into a neutered former shell of itself, the younger generations will realize the need to actually start to solve problems--and we'll do so in a markedly direct and swift manner. They'll call this callous, brutal, pitiless, and uncompassionate. They'll whine. They'll moan. They'll cry. But it will be too late.
the younger generations will realize the need to actually start to solve problems–and we’ll do so in a markedly direct and swift manner.
Can we effect anything before we are taxed to death? Soon enough, they will suddenly decided that it is an absolute duty for all (wage-earning) citizens to pay high taxes in order to support "a better society".
I am not saying that they are necesarily evil... but a large amoral group trying to maximize its self-interests can be quite scary for those outside the group.
I shall add that all economic beings are amoral in their economic decisions.
Let’s hope the Chinese take over fast, then. Don’t their traditions include respect for elders?
Perhaps. I heard that the cultural revolution changed a lot of that though. The Japanese also has a sense of respect for elders, at least apparently.
However, self-interest transends all values.
Actually the House of Reps has voted on a possible draft. don’t think it couldn’t possibly happen.
Yes, the Generation-Y may get drafted. Greatness skips a generation. :-D
I just can’t take anyone who uses the term “biatch” seriously.
Agreed, SQT; however, according to UrbanDictionary.com it's street use is generally accepted. Other acceptable spellings include, "b'atch, beyatch & biyatch."
Personally, I'm partial to "mofo". ;-)
As in, "that David Lereah mofo' is whack!"
But if the draft is revived, they may have to draft women this time.
Why? Going forward, any major war can be won AND lost in 30 minutes.
Also, the SSS does not register females. There will be logistical difficulties.
@1337STI, learn some fucking grammar and spelling, then maybe your posts won't be deleted so quickly.
Or as you would rite, lurn some fukin grammer and spelin
I bet him that in six months houses in our area (Merced county) would be SELLING (not for sale, but selling) for no less than 20% cheaper than in January. He thinks it will not ever go down and will likely go up.
While I admire your courage, I have to admit that six months is probably not enough time to get that large of a drop. Keep in mind that RE is notoriously "sticky" on the way down and never moves as quickly as most other asset classes, mainly due to the long transaction times involved --especially if foreclosure proceedings and/or lawsuits are involved. Also keep in mind that the IO shit doesn't really hit the fan until 2007, when approx. $1Trillion in loans adjust. 5-10% would have been more realistic, but I salute you for your cajones, sir!
The U.S.'s only draft? Better break out the history books, the U.S. had a draft from 1863 until 1973. And I seriously doubt we will have another one because if the Generals had their way they would only have volunteer's in the military that could speak 3 languages, operate a variety of extremely technical equipment, shoot straight, go for days with very little sleep or food and and still be able to think on their feet. As far as the current Iran situation goes I must once again refer to recent history. On June 7 1981, Israel flew over Jordian and Saudi Arabian airspace and leveled Iraq,s nuclear reactor which was to become operational in a matter of days. The Moussad also went to France and murdered the French scientist's who gave them technical support. Iran knows this and is hoping they will do it to them to further whip up the Jihadist's.
I am afraid I agree with you,mostly wishful thinking on my part. Didn't mean to be an asshole I'm just sort of a history nut.
Polish Knight- Thank you for the history lesson on why the Viet Nam dragged on. I do love history. One thing you could maybe help me with tho. Why were we there to begin with. I know don't tell me. So the Godless Chinese didn't take over our country-Am I right?
Domino theory and because the French failed to stop the vile red army.
This was copied from a NYTIMES article.
Washington decision makers were wrong to think of Ho Chi Minh as a puppet of Moscow or Beijing, but they were not wrong about the danger of Communist aggression. Furthermore, they were right to be concerned about the fate of those Vietnamese in the South who opposed a Communist takeover, many of whom had fled from the North to escape it. We cannot know with certainty what would have happened to them if the United States had delivered them to Hanoi under the fiction of a neutralized government, but there was reason to expect the worst. After all, Communism in the Soviet Union had killed more Soviet citizens than even Hitler did. Mao began his murderous Cultural Revolution not on Moscow's orders but to achieve his own purposes.
Protection of the non-Communist South Vietnamese, while important, was probably not the decisive motivation of American officials who decided in favor of war. For an explanation of their choice, we need to recall the American political scene at the time. It was just a few years after the war in Korea, McCarthyism and a bruising debate over who lost China. The most damaging tag that could be placed on any political candidate, particularly a Democrat, was ''soft on Communism.'' John Kennedy recognized this with his charges of a missile gap during his Presidential campaign, his endorsement of the Bay of Pigs invasion, his response to Soviet missiles in Cuba and his rhetoric, especially in his speech in West Berlin.
Let us suppose that, on the Kennedy-Johnson watch, Hanoi had managed to take over South Vietnam as the result of an agreement with the United States. Other dominoes would have started to wobble, not in consequence of some master plan in the Kremlin vaults, but because Moscow, Beijing, Havana and Hanoi would be competing for influence over insurgencies elsewhere, and attempting to create them where they did not yet exist. (Witness Soviet backing for the Cuban adventures in Latin America and Africa in the 1970's: Moscow did not control Fidel Castro, but this did not prevent cooperation to support rebellions in many countries.)
Whether or not further dominoes had fallen, the 1968 election in the United States would have been filled with charges of softness on Communism, and perhaps even treason. Richard Nixon (or, conceivably, Barry Goldwater) would probably have been elected, not with a promise that he had a secret plan to end the war in Vietnam, but with pledges of a renewed anti-Communist crusade. To think that the rapprochement with China or arms control agreements with the Soviet Union would have been possible under such conditions, as Logevall does, is an exercise in fantasy.
Thank You Mr. Surfer-x it's all so clear to me now. Btw that wouldn't happen to be the same vile red army that is currently taking turns buttfucking corporate America would it?
Kindly refrain from posting religious bullshit here. Yes, you can worship how you choose, I just don't want to hear about it.
Religion made perfect sense 800 years ago. Think about it, why get all uppity when the king is raping your family and you're starving when after living a good christian life you will be awarded with enteral bliss when you die. Meanwhile the King is having a field day with your teenage daughter.
Regarding abortion, I take it you are against it? Good, don't have one, and tell everyone you know not to have one, but never ever try to make it so others cannot legally have one. It's a slippery fucking slope my friend, your rights are not taken away wholesale, they are taken away by the inch and soon you are miles from where you started.
Thanks Bap33 :) I like reading your comments! ;)
Most women I know have not declined to work. Certainly, some women decide to opt out of the workforce for a while to raise kids, but look around, I don't know what neighborhood you are lving in, but most women I know, and most neighborhoods I have lived in, noone is home in the daytime but the elderly and stay-at-home moms.
SQT, quit being a girl! :) :)
Ok, I deleted a bunch of the PK/SQT posts, yes, while they technically fit in as they were angry, I feel that they detracted a bit in that I generally enjoy both PK's and SQT's posts, but i felt this got a bit too personal.