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How to accelerate the drop in house prices?


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2011 Oct 13, 12:07pm   34,846 views  136 comments

by Patrick   ➕follow (60)   💰tip   ignore  

(Let go of the damn rope for Chrissakes!)

Several people sent me this today: How to Stop the Drop in Home Values

As if truly affordable housing were a bad thing! Sure, if you're a stupid bank that blew all its capital on stupid lending, and lower prices expose your stupidness, then that can't feel good, because you are after all the "experts" in lending. Though all that sweet taxpayer cash sure does sooth those wounds!

And if you're a stupid (yes, that's the right word) borrower who stupidly borrowed money to buy prestige and self-esteem at stupidly high prices, well, who exactly forced you to borrow that money? And does your life end if you have to go rent something you can actually afford, like the rest of us? Maybe you'd actually be happier without that albatross around your neck.

Martin Feldstein, the author of that article, says

I cannot agree with those who say we should just let house prices continue to fall until they stop by themselves. Although some forest fires are allowed to burn out naturally, no one lets those fires continue to burn when they threaten residential neighborhoods.

What he does not say is that at a sufficiently low price, all those residential neighborhoods will quickly be filled will happy and reponsible people who don't need to borrow money to buy at that price. Patrick.net reader StoutFiles rightly says:

If homes were affordable the vast majority of the country would not be taking out 30 year loans to buy them.

The key is to accelerate the drop in house prices by refusing to support stupid mortgage debt with taxpayer money. When houses become truly affordable, they will be bought with savings rather than debt. Demanding that anyone except the stupid banks and stupid borrowers pay for their own mistakes just drags down the whole economy.

If there were no mortgage debt, there would be no negative equity or foreclosures.
If there were no mortgage debt, the banks never would have had a mortgage debt crisis.
If there were no mortgage debt to compete against, your savings could buy a nice house.

Please write Obama and your Congressmen and ask for a complete end to mortgage debt subsidies, so we can accelerate the drop in housing prices.

#housing

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123   ArtimusMaxtor   2011 Oct 28, 9:51pm  

Netflix's problem was the people it got involved with. They put the Starz and other things on there and got their asses burnt. Not the recorded Starz but the Live Starz. They do that if you pay attention they have cable on there. They did that in the beginning of the online. Paid way to much. For way to little and it keeps getting smaller. What really should be done more and if they want more. Hey no problem I would do that for more current stuff. WTF do I have to pay the post office? The post office is obviously doing greece no fucking good at all.

So Xfinity comes along and says greece your sucking wind now. Which probably means they have postal hoarding syndrome.

The big question is whats the difference if it's cable or online movies? Cable just might dissapear the way of broadcast if that ever occured.

Look lets just forget postal fee's. Put it online. You can send flashbangs and smoke grenades to greece. Then we can get BLOCKBUSTER online. Everyone goes ooooooh aaaaaaaaaaw. Thats what we really want. Sorry to many long term leases wait your turn. Not to mention franchise fees, lawsuits etc. Hey we could all pay at the store closest to us! Now that might work. Cause downloading movies that are ripped I don't like doing. Tell you why many aren't defragged and have junk in them and screw up your computer. Not to mention the blu ray stuff that well travels at blazing speeds of well 500k or some other megabyte. I still can't figure it out it says really fast it just dosen't seem to work that way. Someones on the backbone it sure ain't the common guy. Well get internet download manager nothing will screw your computer quicker than that.

Enough about computers. What we need are current within 3 to 4 years movies online. Not ripped. But on something like Netflix or something else similar. Guys to tell you the truth it's really stupid in most cases to wait for the post office to deliver a movie. There are some that don't have Ripoffband. However it does move fast enough to deliver a movie. You can really thank however the apple OS for that one. IE it says it goes 50 mb a second but it sure don't look that way to me.

124   EastCoastBubbleBoy   2011 Oct 29, 10:20pm  

Here's a quick snapshot of what's on the market in my area right now.

Not sure what typical HH income is around here, if I had to guess it's probably around $100k/year.

Want prices to come down? Make buyers put 20% down.

20% of $200k is $40k
20% of $300k is $60k
20% of $400k is $80k

Tell people they need to bring that much cash to the table, and prices will drop real quick.

This government supported 3.5% down policy is helping keeping prices high.

125   Â¥   2011 Oct 30, 6:28am  

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

This government supported 3.5% down policy is helping keeping prices high.

to a great extent, yes, but since people qualify for loans based on the principal, higher down payments will over time result in higher home prices.

$300,000 at 3.5% down has a monthly payment of ~$1750. At 20% down, that monthly payment can buy a $400,000 house. In theory, home prices will just inflate the amount of the down payment.

If we were serious about lowering the cost of housing, we'd eject the parasitical specuvestors from the market. Let them put their money towards actual productive enterprise, not the naked rent-seeking of a landlord.

126   corntrollio   2011 Oct 31, 8:52am  

cc0 says

However, Social Security doesn't promise a positive rate of return.

Absolutely false. Here is an analysis of the rate of return from Social Security. You get the best return if you are married:

http://www.angrybearblog.com/2009/03/social-security-return-on-investment.html

I suspect you aren't familiar with the input and output formulas for Social Security.

tatupu70 says

You obviously didn't understand. SS isn't designed for constantly increasing population, nor does it have to be. It is designed for a steady state of population. Unfortunately, science is allowing people to live longer which makes it tricky to balance the inflows and outflows. But it most definitely does NOT require a increasing population. That's why it is completely different than a Ponzi.

Exactly.

ArtimusMaxtor says

Netflix's problem was the people it got involved with. They put the Starz and other things on there and got their asses burnt. Not the recorded Starz but the Live Starz. They do that if you pay attention they have cable on there. They did that in the beginning of the online. Paid way to much.

I think you have this exactly wrong -- it's the opposite of this. Netflix didn't pay enough for Starz, so Starz didn't make much off the deal. However, it was a good start for Netflix's streaming business, which started collecting steam and more and more people joined because Netflix started getting more and more streaming content. Then Starz and other content producers realized they weren't making enough and raised the fees for Netflix. That's why Netflix raised the fees on users. Now, some of the content producers have either pulled their content, charged more for it, or only put limited amounts up (e.g. only library content, but not current season or last season or two).

127   cc0   2011 Oct 31, 10:22pm  

corntrollio says

cc0 says

However, Social Security doesn't promise a positive rate of return.

Absolutely false.

Well, gee. SS was sold as a form of insurance. I did not realize that the system promised that every investor would earn more than they paid in. If that's the case, then it is more like a Ponzi Scheme than I thought.

tatupu70 says

You obviously didn't understand. SS isn't designed for constantly increasing population, nor does it have to be.

Actually, I do understand. I just got carried away at the end. The first half of my statement still applies.

tatupu70 says

What the heck are you talking about? Yes, banks offer a positive rate of return on deposits. That has nothing to do with Keynes or a Ponzi scheme.

It's really quite simple. In order for everyone to make money above their deposits, more money has to constantly flow into the system. Eventually, all the world's money is "invested" and the program can no longer maintain that promise. The only system that can pull off that feat is our banking system, but only because it gets to print its own money.

128   tatupu70   2011 Oct 31, 11:41pm  

cc0 says

Actually, I do understand. I just got carried away at the end. The first half of my statement still applies.

No it doesn't.

cc0 says

It's really quite simple. In order for everyone to make money above their deposits, more money has to constantly flow into the system. Eventually, all the world's money is "invested" and the program can no longer maintain that promise. The only system that can pull off that feat is our banking system, but only because it gets to print its own money.

There are so many things wrong with that statement, I don't know where to begin.

129   corntrollio   2011 Nov 1, 4:44am  

cc0 says

Well, gee. SS was sold as a form of insurance. I did not realize that the system promised that every investor would earn more than they paid in. If that's the case, then it is more like a Ponzi Scheme than I thought.

That makes no sense. When I buy an annuity, it pays more than I paid in too. Does that mean insurance is all a Ponzi?

130   cc0   2011 Nov 1, 5:18am  

corntrollio says

That makes no sense. When I buy an annuity, it pays more than I paid in too. Does that mean insurance is all a Ponzi?

Maybe. It's certainly a fraud. And I've said "like Ponzi", not "is Ponzi".

My finance guy somewhat recently told me about some financial product - I think it was an annuity - with some ridiculously high guaranteed return. I forget the exact details but I asked him how such a guarantee was possible and he said he had no idea, and admitted that it sounded shady.

In the U.S. you couldn't even buy annuities before 1912 and from a brief read about them they started out as government devices, backed by the power of tax. Insurance annuities have the pricing power of the premiums, but they are nonetheless voluntary.

It also looks like if you die any survivors only get either (a) the amount invested or (b) the amount invested plus interest, depending on the annuity type. Neither is guaranteeing/promising that all participants will actuarially receive more than they paid in.

Did AIG sell annuities? What would have happened to those holders had the company been allowed to go bankrupt and receive no government bailout?

131   corntrollio   2011 Nov 1, 5:51am  

cc0 says

My finance guy somewhat recently told me about some financial product - I think it was an annuity - with some ridiculously high guaranteed return. I forget the exact details but I asked him how such a guarantee was possible and he said he had no idea, and admitted that it sounded shady.

That's because you were talking to a salesman probably. If someone can't explain what a product is to you in terms where you can understand it, you probably shouldn't be buying it. It probably also has high fees.

But if you want to find out how, say, a variable universal life policy works, I did a write-up about it: http://patrick.net/?p=816374

But that doesn't mean an annuity is a Ponzi scheme or that it's fraudulent. You either don't know what "Ponzi scheme" means, don't know what "insurance" means, or something else is awry here if you're saying that. I'm also not sure if you understand how Social Security works -- you aren't saying anything substantive that's wrong with it, but rather repeating Rick Perry's talking points.

cc0 says

n the U.S. you couldn't even buy annuities before 1912

The fact that you probably Googled "annuity" before making this post (and found a savewealth.com article) says a lot...

132   cc0   2011 Nov 1, 6:15am  

corntrollio says

If someone can't explain what a product is to you in terms where you can understand it, you probably shouldn't be buying it. It probably also has high fees.

I certainly didn't buy it. I didn't even ask for more details. Someone tells me I can get a guaranteed 18% YoY and I say "only in Zimbabwe".

corntrollio says

But that doesn't mean an annuity is a Ponzi scheme or that it's fraudulent.

I said that insurance was a fraud.

http://dd.pangyre.org/i/insurance.html

corntrollio says

[...] Social Security works -- you aren't saying anything substantive that's wrong with it

I've also said that Social Security isn't the problem, but Medicare is. Social Security, despite being called an insurance program or an entitlement, is just a tax. Get rid of it and replace it with welfare.

corntrollio says

Googled "annuity" before making this post (and found a savewealth.com article)

I didn't research it much, but I prefer to understand the history behind something more than its immediate market impact. That article appears to have the date wrong - 1812 is correct, if this site is to be believed:

http://www.annuity-insurers.org/Resources/History/History-of-annuities.aspx

The primary benefits I've seen of annuities are their tax savings, and yes, aside from listening to Ed Slott, I've not any experience with them.

133   corntrollio   2011 Nov 1, 10:54am  

cc0 says

Social Security, despite being called an insurance program or an entitlement, is just a tax.

It is an insurance program. It is neither structured as an entitlement nor a straight tax. There are technical definitions for each of these things.

cc0 says

I said that insurance was a fraud.

That would be a minority position not supported by the law.

cc0 says

I certainly didn't buy it. I didn't even ask for more details. Someone tells me I can get a guaranteed 18% YoY and I say "only in Zimbabwe".

If someone told you 18% (I doubt they did), you should probably report them to some authority. However, insurance plans can be structured in a variety of ways. I explained variable universal life, which at first glance can look appealing to many people, but it tends to have very high fees in most forms.

134   cc0   2011 Nov 1, 11:00am  

corntrollio says

If someone told you 18%, you should probably report them to some authority.

Why would I do that? Maybe the number was 16%. Maybe it was 12%.

Why would it make a difference if the guarantee was 4% or 400%?

135   corntrollio   2011 Nov 2, 10:00am  

cc0 says

Why would I do that? Maybe the number was 16%. Maybe it was 12%.

Because if they are guaranteeing you 12% YOY, they are probably a crook. It's not even close to plausible.

136   PockyClipsNow   2011 Nov 4, 10:30am  

I was listening to the radio and I noticed someone (the Feds I think) was advertising "Having trouble making your mortgage payments? Help is available! Visit http://www.makinghomeaffordable.gov

So if you check out that link they want to keep everyone in thier home at taxpayer expense.

Who should we thank more for 'making home UNaffordable'? the D or the R?

They are even spending millions in your taxes to reach out to deadbeats to HELP THEM stay in homes they cant afford via Radio Ads.

Everyone at every level of the government/democrats are trying to re inflate house prices on taxpayer dime. IM REALLY TIRED OF THIS. We know its to bailout BANKS and they stupid loan owners are on the hook for a recourse mortgage on an underwater house if they actually Refi. Then they are screwed for sure until the BK. The banks sure do own the gov

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