patrick.net

I think a $20,000 is sickening, especially for what 20K buys you these days in a car.

I'll never drive a new car, not at the current marketing paradigm.
Also 10 year old cars have never been more reliable. Even if you have to do major repair that costs $1200 or more once a year. Your still WAYYYYY ahead of the game. $1200 is your average car owner's 2 months worth of car payments. They are paying six times that a year.

And leasing cars? That is a con, that made $20,000 entry level cars possible. "Well I could pay 20K for a Ford focus, and have a $500 a month car payment or I could pay $299 a month and drive a Beamer I'll never own.

One could just look at how America markets cars, and get the idea we're not a nation of savers, with out even having to look at the bank interest rates. But that's another rant.

Hmm, you guys have me thinking about updating cars....

maybe to a 2001.

There's diminishing returns on older cars after a certain point. I see where my 1997 Camry at 220K+ miles is getting threadbare upholstery and a few ailments. Thinking to squeeze another 50K+ out of her though before I pull the eject handles.

The buying on time and leasing discourse is nothing new. Didn't Ellie Mae or someone here link an old 1950's British film where the upper class was tut-tutting about the lower classes some of whom were over-using "hire purchase"?

edvard2 says

Something that I think about a lot on the way to work is to what extent do people place importance on "what" they drive. I say this because living in the Bay Area its clear that either there is a lot of well-off people or maybe a lot of people spending a lot of their incomes on their cars. Prior to moving here from NC you'd be lucky if you saw a new Bimmer or even a new VW in a day. Yet on my way to work I must see at least 100+ brand-new luxury cars speeding down the freeway. We're talking $60,000-$90,000 cars.

I must be driving on the wrong freeways. I'd say this is true about LA, but less so about the Bay Area. I see far more people driving beat up Corollas and Civics and pickups than anything else.

$60-90K is very high level, by the way. For example, BMW 550 could be $60K, but 535 won't be (ditto Mercedes E-class -- E350 vs. E550). Theoretically a fully loaded Chevy Suburban would count, but other than that it'd have to be a Range Rover or Lexus LX or Land Cruiser to be that high as an SUV maybe. A Porsche Cayman wouldn't count, but a 911 would.

Then again, I did see 3 Ferraris in a row on Market Street in SF the other day.

There are definitely a LOT of expensive cars in the Bay Area- at least compared to anywhere else I've lived. Then again this was sort of true when I lived on the east coast as well. I think there's even a saying that Bimmers are more like Honda Civics around here because " Everyone has one"- thus they aren't exactly exclusive.

I have a 10 year old car too and have no plans on getting rid of it anytime soon. It only has 26,000 miles! Most peole I know with newer cars have way more mileage than I do.

New cars seem flimsy to me, just don't last as long. And new drivers seem to care more about superficial crap on their vehicles instead of real technology that has a purpose.

FortWayne says

New cars seem flimsy to me, just don't last as long. And new drivers seem to care more about superficial crap on their vehicles instead of real technology that has a purpose.

What are examples of this?

I've driven both older cars and newer cars (of the same vintage) and haven't noticed that new cars are less reliable. In fact, most newer cars have increased time between maintenance and many of their parts last longer.

What superficial crap do people get? What are examples of real technology with a purpose?

I'd also concur that newer cars aren't necessarily more flimsy. The same was said when I bought my old Toyota- that they weren't as good as cars made sometime in the past. Indeed the maintenance on newer cars is a lot less than older ones, as in the metallurgical technology as well as chemistry of modern coolants means you can go 100k-150k before changing the coolant. Course' I'd never go that long with mine, but it used to be that every 40k you changed the coolant and when you did what came out was rust water.

corntrollio says

What are examples of this?

I've seen a lots of complaints that later-generation Camry are not as robust as the Gen3/Gen4 units. Use of cheaper parts predominating is what I hear. I have an early Gen4 (1997) 220K+ miles and it's going great. Although I do wish they had used a timing CHAIN instead of a belt I've had to replace that flippin' belt too many times. I think I'll get rid of it before I have to replace it again. Air conditioning goes out again I'm just going to put in a free-spinning pulley and delete the compressor, fixing the silly thing is too expensive.

Vicente says

I've seen a lots of complaints that later-generation Camry are not as robust as the Gen3/Gen4 units. Use of cheaper parts predominating is what I hear. I have an early Gen4 (1997) 220K+ miles and it's going great. Although I do wish they had used a timing CHAIN instead of a belt I've had to replace that flippin' belt too many times.

I think people are getting lazier about maintenance, frankly. I have had cars that were considered "unreliable" where I spent very little on repairs compared to the purported average.

Nonetheless, it's entirely possible that Camrys have cheaper parts than in the past. Toyota has been cost cutting, like GM back in the 80s. My impression also was that you could abuse American cars and they'd still run okay, but Japanese cars would tend to break with abuse, although I have no way of knowing if that's true.

You will notice that most American-branded cars are more reliable than they were in the 80s. Lincoln, Cadillac, and Buick will challenge (and beat sometimes) any of the Japanese brands on reliability, and I think Ford isn't that far behind. Just check JD Power the last few years if you don't believe me.

edvard2 says

The same was said when I bought my old Toyota- that they weren't as good as cars made sometime in the past. Indeed the maintenance on newer cars is a lot less than older ones, as in the metallurgical technology as well as chemistry of modern coolants means you can go 100k-150k before changing the coolant.

There's all kinds of stuff like this. For example, some cars will tell you when they need an oil change, and the interval is often something with 5-digits in some cases -- every 10-12K miles. And sometimes when you pull that oil out, it looks clean, unlike cars of yore, just as edvard said about coolant.

Platinum spark plugs last longer and spark better later in life. Engines are made of better materials and are machined to higher tolerances (which means they run smoother, last longer, foul the oil less, burn fuel better, etc.). Exhaust systems are cleaner and exhaust parts last longer. Shocks are better than they used to be, and suspension geometry is far more sophisticated than the leaf springs of yore. Cars have more safety features like ABS and stability control that keep them out of more accidents. The list goes on.

edvard2 says

There are definitely a LOT of expensive cars in the Bay Area- at least compared to anywhere else I've lived. Then again this was sort of true when I lived on the east coast as well.

I don't doubt that there are necessarily more expensive cars in the Bay Area than in many other big cities. However, compared to NY and LA, I thought the Bay Area had a lot fewer expensive cars. Lots of my friends here in the Bay Area have decidedly down-market cars (and as I mentioned lots of beat up Civics, Corollas, and pickups), but my friends in LA know secretaries with a BMW 3-series or Mercedes C-Class, and certainly some out of work actors (aka waiters) with one too. Leasing is believed to be how they can make it work.

The issues with the Camry I believe were primarily for the 2006 model, and in particular the 2006 V6 automatic 6 speed transmission due to a faulty snap ring. That was it. As far as I know the issue was worked out. Other then that the car is still a great product. Toyota is sort of like the perfect straight-A kid in class where if they make any tiny mistake the issue is blown out of proportion. All I can say is that we've had a number of Toyotas and they ALL were nearly flawless. My Brother's Toyota now has over 300,000 miles on it. Can't really argue with that kind of success. I'd be willing to bet even now that you could spend 15k on the cheapest Toyota and it'll last just as long and run more reliably than any 90k Bimmer.

corntrollio says

You will notice that most American-branded cars are more reliable than they were in the 80s. Lincoln, Cadillac, and Buick will challenge (and beat sometimes) any of the Japanese brands on reliability, and I think Ford isn't that far behind. Just check JD Power the last few years if you don't believe me.

True... but I'd like to see what happens long term- as in 10 years on out because Ford and GM in particular basically "purged" their whole lineups as well as a lot of newer drivetrains- like engines that use direct injection and sophisticated engine management systems. GM got my respect for having some balls when they came out with the Volt, which is probably the most advanced car being made these days. Its also impressive that the Chevy Volt, which is a cheap econo-car comes packed with goodies, gets 40-45MPG, and actually looks nice too. Ford is doing well too. I am possibly considering a Cruze if I were to buy a new car ( not until after we've bought a house somewhere). Its pretty amazing what the Big 3 have come from just a few years ago when they were making a lot of junk and huge SUVS and trucks.

edvard2 says

Toyota is sort of like the perfect straight-A kid in class where if they make any tiny mistake the issue is blown out of proportion. All I can say is that we've had a number of Toyotas and they ALL were nearly flawless.

I don't think that's completely true. While Toyota has very good quality control, especially with fit and finish, and avoids the little tiny problems that people have with some cars (like VWs), when they have epidemic or catastrophic problems, it's as bad as anyone else. Just look at their recalls and things like that. Also, Toyota engines used to get a lot of carbon build-up, and this was a problem for more than a decade easily, maybe two -- not sure if they fixed those problems in more recent vehicles. My friends with first gen Priuses are starting to have the expensive repairs come up now too, since they are all out of warranty now (including the extended warranty for the drivetrain).

edvard2 says

My Brother's Toyota now has over 300,000 miles on it.

Sure, my old Fords/Lincolns were well above 200K, and one even had its original transmission after 200K. They probably would have run much longer, but they got old enough that Ford stopped carrying some of the parts, and I ended up getting another vehicle eventually. I don't think it's impossible for even supposedly unreliable cars to run that long, especially when well-maintained. Now if we're talking about British, French, or Italian cars, that's different. :)

corntrollio says

While Toyota has very good quality control, especially with fit and finish, and avoids the little tiny problems that people have with some cars (like VWs), when they have epidemic or catastrophic problems, it's as bad as anyone else. Just look at their recalls and things like that. Also, Toyota engines used to get a lot of carbon build-up, and this was a problem for more than a decade easily, maybe two -- not sure if they fixed those problems in more recent vehicles

I dunno... my Brother's car was "supposed" to be one of the engines that sludged-up badly. We replaced the timing belt last year. You have to remove the valve covers. Now- my Brother is really, really bad at maintenance. As in the oil gets changed when I remember- not him. So who knows how long it goes between changes. Anyway, the inside of the valve train was amazingly pristine. However, I do know one person that has had a Toyota engines sludge, a 97' Sienna. Then again they had failed to change the oil for well over 10,000 miles. That's not really the engine's fault because the owner was negligent of maintenance. Its just that in my family we've probably had 10-15 Toyotas and not a single one has ever had a serious issue. We beat the crap out of these cars and they just go, and go, and go. I'm not going to say that ALL Toyotas are flawless nor that others won't last as long. I have a friend with a 1990 Dodge Minivan that amazingly has 400,000 miles on it. But my ownership experience leads me to believe that Toyota's quality is good and consistently so.

That said... I think people's reasons for buying cars has changed. It seems to me that people used to buy Toyotas and Hondas because they were no-nonsense, fuel efficient, reliable vehicles. But now that they look just like everyone else- with all models now being HUGE compared to the same models from 20 years ago they lack that distinction. People seem to be magnetically drawn to cars for style now-aka- "Cute" or uber-expensive looking cars that are often times prone to mechanical problems.

Occasionally I wake up with the cold sweats at night. I have this reoccurring dream that they've revoked my CA residency because I drive a crappy car. Ya, I know what you mean...

Vicente says

I see where my 1997 Camry at 220K+ miles is getting threadbare upholstery and a few ailments.

I sold my 1994 Camry last year for $1800. Best little car I ever had, though it was developing problems.

Our second car is a 2007 Matrix, it's good (if noisy when driving), got it so my wife would have her first new car. I'll never buy a new car again. You're constantly worried about resale value, neverending monthly payments, etc. It was actually just stolen, then returned to the same neighborhood, but thankfully the kids or whomever took it, didn't do any damage except for ripping out the change drawer.

edvard2 says

Now- my Brother is really, really bad at maintenance. As in the oil gets changed when I remember- not him.

Once a gal I knew called me asking for a ride, her Volvo had been making noises, she stopped on the side of the road, but couldn't start it again. When I picked her up, I went around her car and asked her what went wrong.

She began to describe a "thunk-thunk-thunk" sound that started a few weeks ago. I asked her when the last time she got an oil change was.

She said, "What's an oil change?"

She had the car for years, and put maybe 50k miles+ on it, but never once got it serviced.

edvard2 says

my Brother's car was "supposed" to be one of the engines that sludged-up badly.

Ditto. I read about "sludge" problems in Toyota engines too. Pulled off my valve cover recently. Got the car at 110K, have driven it to 220K, and ZERO SLUDGE found. This IMO has to do with shitty maintenance or oil products, and idiots who blame it on the engine. The 5SFE engine block in particular is a tank and will probably outlive me. The accessory stuff that hangs off it is another matter....

Do you know what my biggest compliant on luxury cars is? They are not built as well as cheap cars and they cost a LOT more.

Take my 2003 Honda Civic LX for example, I had 100k miles on it before I replace the front tires and break pads. My wife leased a Infiniti GX37 two years ago and they are tell her she needs new breaks on the front, not to mention they squeak really bad. She asked the dealer about it and they told her they used a different material for the break pads on luxury cars and it tends to squeak more. So a cheap car lasted 7 years and 100k miles before needing new breaks as opposed to a car that cost twice as much, but the breaks barely last 2 years and 25k miles. That's Major BS in my opinion. Personally I'll stick with the cheaper cars, you can keep you Mercedes, BMW's and Infiniti's status symbols. A symbol of getting shafted I say.

TechGromit says

Do you know what my biggest compliant on luxury cars is? They are not built as well as cheap cars and they cost a LOT more.

Totally. In fact a quick glance at most any quality report shows pretty much all of the major Japanese manufactures up on top of that list with the American brands either almost as high or as high with almost all of the Euro brands at the bottom. I've known way too many people with a Mercedes or BMW that had some tiny little thing go wrong and the repair cost $3,000 or more. As said earlier, I can buy any crappy econo Toyota I want and it'll probably outlast most anything out there regardless of cost. That said, its apparent that people in the Bay Area are unperturbed by quality issues as you sure see an awful lot of those expensive, albeit less reliable luxury cars on the road.