patrick.net

Waitingtobuy says

You may not realize it, but painting Jews as college-educated elitists while many people are struggling (including Jews) pits one group against another. (and BTW, Fox News using the term "Hollywood" is code for Jews).

If you want to go through life playing "AdLib" with peoples words, then why stop there. You should invent some internal enemies and the three of you can debate the finer points of deceit and distention.

Waitingtobuy says

You have to be very careful about saying "some of my best friends are Jewish".

I do? Why? I live in South Florida for God sakes, everyone has Jewish friends, and well sit down for this one...

A few Cuban Friends as well.

Bellingham Bill says

I don't begrudge people making a living in education, or health care for that matter.

We'd have a superior society if more people made decent livings in these fields.

They are already making lavish salaries and benefits.

mdovell says

When you subsidize demand it is like giving out half price coupons at walmart on black friday. The place will get swamped and will get sold out. There'd be no incentive for walmart to lower prices but they would increase staffing.

When you subsidize supply it is the opposite. It is like going to Costco and seeing massive amounts of say paper towels sold for 5 cents each in bulk

I love your analogies.

zzyzzx says

They are already making lavish salaries and benefits.

you're just sore because voting for Republicans is inversely correlated with education.

i"m cuban and jewish, and i have no friends.

vince13 says

i"m cuban and jewish, and i have no friends.

Well you have plenty now Vince.

Bellingham Bill says

you're just sore because voting for Republicans is inversely correlated with education.

That's just proof, the more oppressively expensive educated you are the more Gullible you are.

my broski told me to not get a graduate degree 'unless I was certain it'd increase my salary.'

well, I didn't follow his advice, so in the end I incurred more debt, suffered the wrath of more schooling, and didn't receive any direct monetary compensation for it. Oops.

I feel that some of the college debt students are saddled with is due to their own personal hubris.

20 years ago, the BA became the HS Diploma. Today, it's the Master's Degree. Seems everybody under 40 has one or is working on one. That or Law School, which is why I've decided to do neither. It probably won't have much of an ROI, so I'm working on getting out of the employee game entirely. That, and I hate the arbitrary aesthetics of the MLA, you know, our opinion is a fact, so don't single space after periods, it's wrong because this panel of tenured English professors doesn't like the look of it.

I believe those charts that compare the earnings of various educational levels are too simplistic. What I would like to see is "How much will I make with 0 years experience and a Master's Degree vs. 15 years experience and a Bachelor's" type charts. I betcha the 15 year experience Bachelor holder makes more money; and might make even more with a Master's. Whereas the newly minted Master's Degree might have to wait a loooooooong time to see the promised wage differences.

In other words, "Average" is just that. It doesn't mean your master's degree will get you a few thousand bucks instantly for the rest of your career the moment you get it.

I believe the worst offender is law school, as I've heard most of the charts showing the benefits of a law degree strip out those who are not in the practice of law, thus only people employed as lawyers are counted. I just don't see law becoming a growth industry, even if every boomer lawyer retires.

I would also like to see public jobs eliminated from consideration when comparing average wages to education level, since many cops, teachers, and other gov't employees get guaranteed wage increases upon obtaining higher levels of education, but I'm not aware of any private employer that gives similar treatment.

Something that would probably drastically reduce the cost of college is if parents would stop automatically believing that they HAVE to pay for their kid's colleges. Its only been in more recent times that this notion became more mainstream. Hardly anyone in my family paid for their educations. I paid for most of mine. Its sort of like the same notion that if you have kids or get married then you HAVE to buy a house. That sort of blind belief is what causes people to spend way more than is practical. If students had to pay then suddenly prices would have to go lower to accommodate their incomes.

Good point, Edvard.

Given the increasing bifurcation in the economy, spending $25,000 to spend a decade as a Waiter at various restaurants, and then twenty years as an office worker doesn't make sense.

Unfortunately, businesses have been so spoiled by large numbers of college graduates, they demand bachelor's degrees for entry level clerk jobs and even jobs like Nightshift Supervisor at a McDonalds that pay in the low teens.

So getting a degree may be necessary just to get a shitty white or 'pink' collar job.

thunderlips11 says

20 years ago, the BA became the HS Diploma. Today, it's the Master's Degree. Seems everybody under 40 has one or is working on one. That or Law School, which is why I've decided to do neither.

Yes, I'm sure that's why the unemployment rate is so disparate for non-college grads vs. college grads and why it's so disparate for high school grads vs. non-high school grads: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm

Would you get into a good school? If not, it seems silly to get some of these degrees for the sake of getting one.

The reality is that the motivated, smart, ambitious people will generally do well, regardless of what degree they have. Many of the people who aren't motivated, smart, and ambitious will have trouble even with an advanced degree.

thunderlips11 says

What I would like to see is "How much will I make with 0 years experience and a Master's Degree vs. 15 years experience and a Bachelor's"

In what universe does it take 15 years to get a master's? This would be a useless chart. How many people do you know in this scenario?

thunderlips11 says

That, and I hate the arbitrary aesthetics of the MLA, you know, our opinion is a fact, so don't single space after periods, it's wrong because this panel of tenured English professors doesn't like the look of it.

You don't want to get an advanced degree because of the MLA? What does that have to do with anything? Hating the MLA is a stupid reason to do anything other than not work for the MLA.

thunderlips11 says

In other words, "Average" is just that. It doesn't mean your master's degree will get you a few thousand bucks instantly for the rest of your career the moment you get it.

Well, there's your problem. If you go to a shitty school, your masters might not be worth the paper it's printed on. Same thing for going to a shitty law school or a shitty business school or other shitty schools. What you should be railing against is not advanced degrees per se, but rather useless advanced degrees.

thunderlips11 says

Unfortunately, businesses have been so spoiled by large numbers of college graduates, they demand bachelor's degrees for entry level clerk jobs and even jobs like Nightshift Supervisor at a McDonalds that pay in the low teens.

No, they don't. McD's does not require a college degree for shift managers. It's quite trivial to do a 5 second Google search to see that some shift managers are 19 year olds. Unclear on pay, although it sounds like it could be lower than $13/hr.

edvard2 says

Something that would probably drastically reduce the cost of college is if parents would stop automatically believing that they HAVE to pay for their kid's colleges. Its only been in more recent times that this notion became more mainstream.

It's mainstream among upper middle class and higher to pay, and for many middle class families to pay for college, but it's not clear that every family is paying for college. I think many families would like to pay for college, but realize they can't pay some or all of the tuition due to financial circumstance. This is probably not as universal as you suggested, although it is probably seen as an ideal that people should try to live up to.

thunderlips11 says

I would also like to see public jobs eliminated from consideration when comparing average wages to education level, since many cops, teachers, and other gov't employees get guaranteed wage increases upon obtaining higher levels of education, but I'm not aware of any private employer that gives similar treatment.

A private school is a private employer and some private schools also do this. There are also some employers who will re-hire you at a much higher salary after you get an MBA and will often foot the bill for the MBA to boot. There are certainly jobs where there might be certain levels beyond which it would be extremely difficult to be promoted without some sort of advanced degree.

Note that my argument is not "College is a complete sham", nor was it even "You shouldn't get a master's degree". My argument was that the charts that show differences in pay between bachelor degree holders and masters degree holders are flawed because averages, especially across a range of disciplines, can be very deceiving.

I think we debated before about the rising bar of gumption, getting a Master's Degree while working full time was the pinnacle of gumption in earlier times. Now it's "Meh." Unfortunately human nature is still the same, but the demands and expenses are far greater. Gotta build the system to the customer, not the customer to the system. Anyways...

My point is that charts showing that mere possession of a degree translates into higher wages, are misleading. They don't take into account experience, industry, or any trade-offs.

* An aerospace engineer who worked on various secret stealth plane projects for 15 years adds a Masters on top of his Bachelors.
* A cop with 10 years experience finishes the last two years of college he put off and gains "steps" on the salary ladder instantly thanks to his union contract.

* Marcy is sick of working for $8.50/hr P/T at Lower Sandusky Community Aid Center. Despite having a bachelor's degree, she knows she needs an MS in Social Work to get any kind of decent job in her field.

Versus:
* An English major who tires of her 7 years as a Warehouse Manager at Mid State Office Supply goes to get a Master's in Education, in the hopes of getting a first full time teaching job.
* A business degree holder could only afford a Public School since his state provided grants to top grade scoring Community College students, allowing them to transfer. He decides he's stuck in his current role as a buyer for a retail chain and goes for an MBA. Because of family and work commitments, he takes internet classes, from a Private Company School. Will he get an instant pay increase like Officer Friendly did above? Highly unlikely. Costs subsidized? Unlikely, a token amount at best. A promotion? Maybe. Will his MBA from Generic School help in a job switch? Maybe, maybe not.

Obviously the first three are going to make a lot more money by getting a Masters. The Second, probably not much, although the Teacher will probably get decent benefits and better working conditions.

corntrollio says

No, they don't. McD's does not require a college degree for shift managers. It's quite trivial to do a 5 second Google search to see that some shift managers are 19 year olds. Unclear on pay, although it sounds like it could be lower than $13/hr.

A little rhetorical flourish on my part. I think you'd be surprised at how many shitty service industry jobs "Prefer" college degrees. With the U6 in the double digits, this generally means "must have". I can find you many, many bachelor degree holders working these kinds of jobs. This was true before the Great Recession.

I googled "Fast Food Assistant Manager Jobs" and came up with this right away:
Arturo's Fast Food wants an associate's degree for an Assistant Manager jobs. http://www.jobhost.org/jobs/viewjob/assistant-manager-fast-food-restaurant-miami-international-malldoral-4cfdb4ba36ecdf29?source=indeed&medium=sponsored
I don't know how old you are, but if you were around in the 60s or 70s, were Assistant Managers at Fast Food joints required to have ANY college? Do Assistant Managers of Fast food places require knowledge of PhP, Java, Shakespeare, or anything beyond 6th grade math to function at their job? Actually, with POS and logistics systems, the job should actually be easier and involve less mental activity than before, since reordering coke syrup, etc. is all handled by IT, the employee's checks are done in the main office (or outsourced to ADP), The growth of debit/credit cards reduces the amount of cash to count, etc. etc.

Here's a few others I found searching, but I had to refine my search, since the first 100 hits were all "Come to Acme College and build your future" but no actual jobs.

"Mountain Buddies" Supervisor - $12/hr. Bachelor's Degree Req'd
http://www.hospitalityjobsite.com/job.asp?id=38462008&aff=AC44BA2E-E3EB-4DBC-8BDB-9FCE01C58B09

Front Desk Receptionist at a Dentist's Office, Lafayette, Louisiana "-Bachelor's Degree required, Experience Preferred; "
http://www.careerbuilder.com/JobSeeker/Jobs/JobDetails.aspx?IPath=JRKV0F&ff=21&APath=2.21.0.0.0&job_did=J3G1Q77621SWZSJNLNB

corntrollio says

Yes, I'm sure that's why the unemployment rate is so disparate for non-college grads vs. college grads and why it's so disparate for high school grads vs. non-high school grads: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm

Let's get a little longer term view.

Unemployment rate, 1996-2011, HS Dropouts

College Grads

HS Grads

Looking at this, unemployment rates more than doubled for the educated and uneducated - although those with bachelor's degrees were operating at a lower unemployment rate to start with. I think this is one of the reasons people keep saying that this the first equal opportunity post-war recession. Previously, there were layoffs of industrial and service workers, but the jobs of the educated were fairly safe. I don't remember a time in my almost 40 years of life where teachers were actually laid off en masse and nationwide, for example.

We also don't know what the quality of the jobs are, only the educational status of those that hold them.

People who can finish college are more likely to get a job than no job at all, I think that's logical. They also frequently have more bills to pay. Billy Jo Smith can hang out in his girlfriend's trailer if he gets laid off from his welding job and wait till the unemployment runs out. William Joseph Smith, an Accounts Manager at a bank, will get divorced if he doesn't get a job, any job, and keep the mortgage paid.

corntrollio says

In what universe does it take 15 years to get a master's? This would be a useless chart. How many people do you know in this scenario?

Not what I'm saying. I'm saying, if you already have 15 years experience in a field with a bachelor's, how does that match to somebody with no experience and a masters (new grad/career change)? Is it worth it to take the time to get a Master's, how long are you from retirement, are you getting promotions and raises without it, etc.?

I apparently wasn't articulate, as I was worried about.
corntrollio says

A private school is a private employer and some private schools also do this. There are also some employers who will re-hire you at a much higher salary after you get an MBA and will often foot the bill for the MBA to boot. There are certainly jobs where there might be certain levels beyond which it would be extremely difficult to be promoted without some sort of advanced degree.

Private Schools are fine, but I doubt they're big enough employers to turn the numbers around. What about IBM, Walmart, Apple, Target, TGIF, Larry's Tax and Bookkeeping, and Sally's Sporting Goods? Maybe Silicon Valley and the WebVan/Pets.com paid most or all of the degree costs back in the day, but definitely not now and never in most industries. I worked for one of the biggest R/E Companies in Boston in the 90s, and they offered a few hundred bucks for each course, a token amount of what they cost, and they only took 9 per year.

I think about 3/4 of Americans work in private industry, and the vast majority won't be getting an auto pay raise or promotion by virtue of a degree.

But definitely, if you have experience in a field and are approaching that "Education Glass Ceiling", then of course you should get a degree.

EDIT: Added HS Grads for show the change in unemployment for all. And edited for brevity (somewhat)

corntrollio says

You don't want to get an advanced degree because of the MLA? What does that have to do with anything? Hating the MLA is a stupid reason to do anything other than not work for the MLA.

Easy buddy, this is humor by exaggeration.

Don't seem right, but you can joke about it. I believe you can joke about anything.
It all depends on how you construct the joke. What the exaggeration is. What the exaggeration is.
Because every joke needs one exaggeration. Every joke needs one thing to be way out of proportion.
Give you an example. Did you ever see a news story like this in the paper?
Every now and then you run into a story, says, "some guy broke into a house, stole a lot of things, and while he was in there, he raped an 81 year old woman."
And I'm thinking to myself, "WHY??? What the fuck kind of a social life does this guy have?"
I want to say, "why did you do that?" "Well she was coming on to me. We were dancing and I got horney.
Hey, she was asking for it, she had on a tight bathrobe." I'll say, "Jesus Christ, be a little fucking selective next time will you?"

Read more: http://artists.letssingit.com/george-carlin-lyrics-rape-can-be-funny-7j9zp7k#ixzz1fF3eQmSb
LetsSingIt - Your favorite Music Community

And after the crash, Thiel insisted there hadn’t really been a crash: He argued the equity bubble had simply shifted onto the housing market. Thiel was so convinced of this thesis that until recently, he refused to buy property, despite his soaring personal net worth. And, again, he was right....
Instead, for Thiel, the bubble that has taken the place of housing is the higher education bubble. “A true bubble is when something is overvalued and intensely believed,” he says. “Education may be the only thing people still believe in in the United States. To question education is really dangerous. It is the absolute taboo. It’s like telling the world there’s no Santa Claus.”
See techcrunch for the whole article.

thunderlips11 says

What about IBM, Walmart, Apple, Target, TGIF, Larry's Tax and Bookkeeping, and Sally's Sporting Goods? Maybe Silicon Valley and the WebVan/Pets.com paid most or all of the degree costs back in the day, but definitely not now and never in most industries.

I seriously doubt any of the pretender dotcoms in the dotcom boom era ever paid for degrees. There are certainly companies in Silicon Valley that do. IBM probably does in very limited circumstances. Consultant firms sometimes do. There are some firms that do care about career development enough to do it, but sure, it's not everybody. Not every public sector job pays you more for an advanced degree either.

thunderlips11 says

My argument was that the charts that show differences in pay between bachelor degree holders and masters degree holders are flawed because averages, especially across a range of disciplines, can be very deceiving.

Then your argument is that some charts suck, not advanced degrees suck. There are better charts that give a better picture on this. For example, I've seen detailed data on salaries from a single highly-ranked university before that gave detailed survey results on CS graduates for BS vs. MS vs. PhD. You could see quite clearly what the salary results were. Other good charts might tell you salary at entry-level vs. salary at mid-career, which is far more helpful and which I've also seen.

As for the rest, it's not like I disagree with you completely on some of this, as I've already mentioned.

corntrollio says

The reality is that the motivated, smart, ambitious people will generally do well, regardless of what degree they have. Many of the people who aren't motivated, smart, and ambitious will have trouble even with an advanced degree.

Well, there's your problem. If you go to a shitty school, your masters might not be worth the paper it's printed on. Same thing for going to a shitty law school or a shitty business school or other shitty schools. What you should be railing against is not advanced degrees per se, but rather useless advanced degrees.

In both of your examples (the teacher and the business person), they both go to shitty colleges to get an advanced degree. It's probably not going to help them, especially since they got themselves boxed into a particular career in the first place. It's unlikely they will suddenly become motivated and ambitious.

thunderlips11 says

I googled "Fast Food Assistant Manager Jobs" and came up with this right away:
Arturo's Fast Food wants an associate's degree for an Assistant Manager jobs. http://www.jobhost.org/jobs/viewjob/assistant-manager-fast-food-restaurant-miami-international-malldoral-4cfdb4ba36ecdf29?source=indeed&medium=sponsored

I'm sure you can cherry-pick all kinds of random jobs. That doesn't change the general trend -- the vast majority of fast food jobs wouldn't require one. You are also changing your story (although maybe it's a "rhetorical flourish"), but first you said shift manager, and now you're saying assistant manager. In any case, my understanding is that Arturo's is different from the typical fast food place. Whereas the typical fast food place is franchised, Arturo's is Venezuelan and has an owned & operated system, so you're actually an assistant manager within the corporation and have the ability to be promoted within the organization. That's far different from being a shift manager at a McDonald's as you first stated.

thunderlips11 says

"Mountain Buddies" Supervisor - $12/hr. Bachelor's Degree Req'd
http://www.hospitalityjobsite.com/job.asp?id=38462008&aff=AC44BA2E-E3EB-4DBC-8BDB-9FCE01C58B09

Even on the ski-job you gave, while the job is extremely low paying, the qualification makes slightly more sense in context. They are expecting someone as an entry-level job at that salary who is looking for seasonal work at a ski resort, which is why they ask for the degree. They don't want some pot-smoking snowboarder for this particular job, even if they expect that the person might partially want free skiing as part of the job. You expect a degree of professionalism since people are paying big money for services at a ski resort, and that person will likely move on to bigger and better things in the future because this is not a career position and isn't even a full year job. In contrast, someone who had no degree, but had years of experience for that particular job wouldn't take it at that salary and would likely be someone who has no plans to move on to something bigger and better, so they're likely to look for a career position in the field and one that runs the full year.

thunderlips11 says

When unemployment is low, the opposite happens - just like it did in the late 90s. Employers, for the first time in that decade, began accepting HS grads and even dropouts for positions they had reserved for "Bachelor's" or "Some College". Positions they wanted to fill with experienced Master's Degree holders went to experienced Bachelor Degree Holders and so forth down the line. Didn't last long, but for the first time since the 70s we had a brief period of all the boats rising with the same tide!
So yes, having a college degree is like insurance against being unemployed. What form that employment takes may not be conducive to middle class wages, though.

Sure, in good times, more unqualified people are able to get jobs, and in bad times, qualified people sometimes have to get worse jobs than they hoped. That's always been true. However, when times are good again, people leave those low paying crappy jobs for something better. That's how economic cycles work. If you graduated at the wrong time, sometimes it sucks, just like if you're underqualified at the wrong time, it sucks. I'm not really sure what that tells us about whether getting an advanced degree is useful or not.

thunderlips11 says

Easy buddy, this is humor.

Oh, I guess you forgot the humor then. :p

EBGuy says

And after the crash, Thiel insisted there hadn’t really been a crash: He argued the equity bubble had simply shifted onto the housing market. Thiel was so convinced of this thesis that until recently, he refused to buy property, despite his soaring personal net worth. And, again, he was right....
Instead, for Thiel, the bubble that has taken the place of housing is the higher education bubble. “A true bubble is when something is overvalued and intensely believed,” he says. “Education may be the only thing people still believe in in the United States. To question education is really dangerous. It is the absolute taboo. It’s like telling the world there’s no Santa Claus.”
See techcrunch for the whole article.

Except that Thiel did lose money on his house in SF if I remember correctly.

If you read the article, it doesn't actually contradict what I said:

Thiel’s solution to opening the minds of those who can’t easily go to Harvard? Poke a small but solid hole in this Ivy League bubble by convincing some of the most talented kids to stop out of school and try another path. The idea of the successful drop out has been well documented in technology entrepreneurship circles. But Thiel and Founders Fund managing partner Luke Nosek wanted to fund something less one-off, so they came up with the idea of the “20 Under 20″ program last September, announcing it just days later at San Francisco Disrupt. The idea was simple: Pick the best twenty kids he could find under 20 years of age and pay them $100,000 over two years to leave school and start a company instead.

Two weeks ago, Thiel quietly invited 45 finalists to San Francisco for interviews. Everyone who was invited attended– no hysterical parents in sight. Thiel and crew have started to winnow the finalists down to the final 20. They’ll be announced in the next few weeks.

Basically, his goal is to find smart, motivated, ambitious kids. Of course they'll do well. I've said this in other threads too.

corntrollio says

Then your argument is that some charts suck, not advanced degrees suck

That was my argument from the beginning. thunderlips11 says

I believe those charts that compare the earnings of various educational levels are too simplistic.