patrick.net

Way, way too big for a DINK.

Notwithstanding that 75% of the Sq ft are useless as you will spend 90% of the time in the same 1000 sq ft, I can't imagine how I will feel sleeping at night when the spouse have to travel overnight for business.

We have been looking at buying a property as well (we are 3 adults and 1 child) and anything north of 3000 sqft (basement not included) looks very big to us (in terms of general maintenance etc.). But then we live in New England which gets more cold in the winters. Also your comment about "don't love it" bothers me a little bit.

10k sq ft. is what professional athletes would buy unless you plan to rent out a few rooms. Just my 2 cents.

Well...lemme put it this way.

Both me and my wife like big houses. Always have, always will. Sure, we'll probably not use the space 100%, but we entertain a fair bit (we have a huge family within a 15 mile radius of DC), and having some space is something we have always wanted. Does that translate into 10K sqft? Probably not. But, we don't like the 2500-3000 sqft houses (not including basement). We just don't. That's us.

Having said that, obviously, maintenance is higher on a bigger house. We're prepared for that. Living in a big house has lots of intangibles that can't be equated with money, and if that means more expenses towards maintenance, so be it.

In addition, I'll be using some of the space in the basement for my business, and stop renting a small warehouse that I currently rent, so that will offset it a bit. I'm also VERY VERY handy, so a fair bit of the maintenance is something I can handle myself. The bigger items, well, they will cost what they will cost.

So, the more important question is not that the house is too big, the question is, is this particular house priced "right"? There will probably be others like it, and I want to make sure we have a "baseline" on which to make a decision.

As a reference, we're already pre-approved (in writing, but I have banked with them for the last 18 years) by our bank for up to $1.8M at 4.6% (30 yr fixed, 0 points). I want to move on something quickly if the opportunity comes along.

No offense, but there's a difference between big and absolutely freakin' HUGE. This thing is double the size of your typical Mcmansion. I can understand liking a bigger house. But this to me seems just a tad on the TOO BIG side. One last thing... If you plan on living in this forever and ever... what will the implications be once you get older? A giant house can suddenly become pretty problematic. I know because my Grandmother owns a " piddly" 3,500 sq foot house and she can barely manage the place and has numbers of people that she has to pay to do so.

But either way it sounds like you're pretty much sold on this one so good luck, enjoy it, and when you're done invite us all over for racquetball inside some of your spare rooms.

edvard2 says

But either way it sounds like you're pretty much sold on this one so good luck, enjoy it, and when you're done invite us all over for racquetball inside some of your spare rooms.

Lemme stress it again - I'm NOT sold on this one. However, I'm seeing it and seeing "some" value in it. And that's the issue. Am I reading the numbers right or not?

Value is subjective on what's important to you. As for me I personally care more about a big yard and a garage versus a house. I grew up on 14 acres in a 2,000 Sq foot house. We had plenty of friends with far bigger houses but then again they lived in cookie-cutter subdivisions with small yards.

It almost sounds like you need to quantify what the value is to you, what the advantage would be of having that much space, and how it would benefit you. Perhaps another thing to think about it perhaps the reason the house is seemingly cheaper is because of how big the thing is. I'd say most families just want your typical 2,500-4,000 Sq foot, 2-3 bedroom house. A 6 Bedroom 10,000 foor house? I guess a good analogy might be campers. For example, you can find HUGE 30-40 footer campers all day long for not a lot of money used. On the other hand small and medium sized campers are actually more in some cases simply because in that case you can get away hauling it with the family SUV versus having to go out and buy a F-350 dually with 6.0 cummins diesel to haul it.

But in the end its your choice. If you like it, it has value for you and your wife.... then buy it.

kapone says

"That kind of money"....i.e. 650K is actually the norm in the DC area for this much house. :)

Yeah, I'm aware. I just meant that personally I would sacrifice the house size (which for me would be extremely excessive) to live in a more moderate house in one of the "W School" zones (Whitman, Wooton, Walter, Winston, etc.)

Still, agree that seems like a very good price for a house of that size.

kapone says

So, the more important question is not that the house is too big, the question is, is this particular house priced "right"? There will probably be others like it, and I want to make sure we have a "baseline" on which to make a decision.

Welp! There it is, then if there's any reservations about or questions as to if this is the baseline or the bottom. Then I would not buy this house. I pulled the trigger last year, on a 2100 sqft place, with plenty of extras. That are, like you said, intangible reasons, that don't equate to value. I'm not concerned about how much further the price will drop. But then again I bought a house, that could possibly have 10's of thousands, and not 100's thousands of potential depreciation.
A house between 100K to 175K is an easier decision, than a house worth anything over 300K.

But if you finances afford this place, and you wouldn't have to sweat making the payments now or 30 years down the road.
Then really, how much is getting back on with your life worth to you? There comes a point, where our lives are on hold, and our happiness is being held hostage by the Idiots in Washington and the Boardrooms across the country.

There's other bottom lines you could be watching, than your wallet. It could be in 5 or 10 years from now people may look back and kick them selves for even playing along with this nonsense.

Like living in a rental or any place for one month longer than was necessary because we were afraid to lose a few imaginary dollars in the short term. But reserve this logic, for those that would like a house to nest in, for the long term. And not an asset, to hedge against an uncertain future. People tend to want a house with an emergency rip cord. Where if their Job goes South or any reason at all, they want be able to sell it, even in less time than a year. And expect to have made a profit. And then of course there's even those still that could live in a bathroom stall for all they care, they want a house for an "INVESTMENT" with a appreciating WOW trend line.

$103 a square foot? There are properties in Van Nuys, California (A lesser desirable section of the San Fernando Valley section of Los Angeles) that are triple that. The lowest price per square foot in Van Nuys is $96. Still sticking with if you love it, can afford it, and it fits your needs whatever they are, just be prepared there is the possiblity the value could drop some.

kapone, it looks like you knew and prepared for what's comming w/ bigger house. The house look nice and the price is, I'd say, alright. However, I do have few questions for you.

I think I heard you're commuting to DC, and adding few miles to that is the last thing I would do. 270 is scenic but I never liked staying on that in rush hours, and counting dead deers on the road is not fun. So, why you're buying a house even further away from your work? I see a metro station there, so are you going to take metro instead of driving?

Those houses arround it are on flag rot. And the house is facing toward them. I do see a drive way connected to the other house south to it. So, it seems like you have to share your drive way with neighbors, and the privacy can be an issue. Is it alright for you?

Lots of tree means lots of falling leaves. That also means, gutter clogging, wild life such as small snake and roddent. Watching a guy putting leaves in 30gal bag, and that's 20th bag, is like... wow. Do you mind doing it yourself or paying someone to do it?

And, you got two local airports near the location. Are you ok with that?

Yes to all of the above. :)

I don't drive to DC even now, I take the metro. This house will actually be closer to the metro than where we are right now.

kapone,

Let me point out the obvious, if you post a house on a housing crash site, 80%+ of the readers are going to tell you not to buy it.

I'm in the 20%. I wish with all my heart there was something like that in the SF peninsula for that price :)

I'm happy for you too kapone and wish to thank you also because I need to wait if I want to buy in this area. I am not paying $200 a square foot for crap.

Then, good enough. Just keep check so that you can find better house at better location at better price.

Since the commuting is my priority, living within walking distance to express bus/metro to pentagon is a must to us. That kept my search in fairfax and arlington county. Home near blue line and yellow line in Virginia is what we've been looking for, never really thought about red, green and orange line in Maryland. I am going to think about expanding our search bit further too. It may work for us as long as the metro line is there.

kapone says

Yes to all of the above. :)
I don't drive to DC even now, I take the metro. This house will actually be closer to the metro than where we are right now.

I have never met a person that takes Metro to work regularly, then comes home to a 10K square feet house. That is quite unique to say the least.

SFace says

kapone says

Yes to all of the above. :)

I don't drive to DC even now, I take the metro. This house will actually be closer to the metro than where we are right now.

I have never met a person that takes Metro to work regularly, then comes home to a 10K square feet house. That is quite unique to say the least.

work hard, play hard

Have you seen DC traffic?? :) There's no point in driving, unless I leave home at 6:00AM and leave work at either 3:00PM or 7:30PM.

And I drive a BMW 740i...that thing's not the best commuter car as such.

In defense of extra bedrooms: In the toughest of times you can rent them out to help you hang on to the house.

SFace, this is DC. :)
You're going to see lots of people doing that here in DC area. Hit the road before 6 in the morning or take metro an hour ahead. Or, be late.

kapone, I talked about the idea of extending home search further along w/ red line over dinner, and she said two words. "No way". Too bad.

Agree about the extra bedroom(s) as a backup plan. The banks/investors/whoever can't hold onto the short sales and shadow inventory forever, I will get my next property probably within the next two or three years and I have a feeling it will be a nice one!

I've driven through DC and its environs once. That experience alone was reason for me to not ever consider living there. I've NEVER seen traffic that awful.

if you've done the math on it, and it's a good deal, then go for it.

but do you really need THAT big of a house? look how much empty space is in those pics. seems a bit too extravagant, and possibly wasteful? that place is gonna cost a fortune to heat, too.

If you can sub divide the property it wouldnt be bad . If natural gas is available its worth the money , dont go with propane , the company will own you . Thats awful big house , I am a contractor , with something that size "you can afford it" So be ready for $1000.00 leaf clean ups , $150.00 per cut mowing , all electric on heat and air , I have seen $2000 a month on heating with heat pumps ( I am in annapolis) I would offer them $ 510,000 and play the game when they counter drop your offer 20K see what happens

Looks like a dump.

being in bay area, I can only DREAM of a house like that! damn!!

kapone says

Lemme stress it again - I'm NOT sold on this one. However, I'm seeing it and seeing "some" value in it. And that's the issue. Am I reading the numbers right or not?

I don't know what houses go for in Gaithersburg these days, but on that house the price /sq ft seems pretty cheap to me. Either that of it's cheap because almost nobody wants something that big. I mean isn't a normal sized house about 1/2 that price in that area?

You should be able to easily walk to the MARC station from there too. That would be a good selling point if you wanted to rent out rooms.

I've passed right by that neighborhood hundreds of times, but never entered it. I can not imagine that such huge houses would be there. If it helps I had natural gas when I lived in Gaithersburg (at Summit Crest Apartments) so I know it's at least in the area.

kapone says

So, the more important question is not that the house is too big, the question is, is this particular house priced "right"? There will probably be others like it, and I want to make sure we have a "baseline" on which to make a decision.

I think this questions is too open-ended.

First, in these times, there is really no way of knowing if this price (675k) is right. What is right today may not be right a year or 5 years from now. There is no guarantee that you can sell it and break even - EVER. I'm sure the previous owners felt that 1.1mm was "right".

Second, the price of a house is more than what you pay for it up front...it's the cash flow (maintenance, taxes, etc.) and the value of that cash flow. That's what everyone is suggesting here. In most cases, you can't really separate the size of the house from the price of the house.

Third, I believe you said this was an emotional decision? The house is well below what you can afford. Based on your first couple of comments, I have a feeling that you think you are getting a million dollar house for 675k, and that is a big part of your motivation.

Personally, I would rather spend a million on something I need, rather than $675 on something I don't.

Offer $600k.

They accept .. buy it.

Well the property taxes alone are $12,777 a year, that's over $1,000 a month. Something to consider.

What really concerns me here is heating /cooling costs. It says the heating system is electric, which is the most expensive method of heating there is. It also says the master bedroom has a gas fireplace. If Natural gas is available for the bedroom, why not the rest of the house? I'm going to guess that there is NO natural gas Available for this location, the bedroom gas fireplace runs off of propane which is marginally better than electric heat. Also two wood burning fireplaces in other rooms, this tells me heating this place will be a nightmare in the winter. There people who spend $600 a month in New jersey heating houses that are not a 1/3 this size and Maryland pretty much has the same weather New Jersey does. Unless you willing to wall off most of the house and live in a few rooms during the winter months, I say your looking at a least $1,500 to 2k a month in heating costs during the coldest winter months.

Based on what I see, I recommend against buying this house. Unless you going to pay to put in Geothermal (at least 100k for this size house) heating and cooling bills are going to kill you.

dex248 says

There is no guarantee that you can sell it and break even - EVER.

I think the housing bubble has seriously affected your ability to form logical thoughts. The Housing Market WILL recover, eventually. Weather it's 5, 10 or even 20 years down is anyone guess. To believe prices will go down forever or stay flat is just as delusional as people who thought prices would always go up during the bubble.

Why are you posting this? Your wife is going to decide whether or not you buy a house. Cut the baloney we're adults here.
You're gonna buy something and the question is whether it's this one or a "cheaper" one. Guess what? She wants the biggest one you can get.
Oh, and I bet she runs around telling people this is 10,000 square feet. Has a nice ring to it.
When you DO buy a house it's gonna be on your shoulders because she can't both work effectively and care for infants. Oh, there's child care. Yeah, and that is like paying another mortgage.
Buy the nicest, cheapest, smallest house you can stand. This will discourage you and your wife from filling it with a bunch of expensive junk too.
She won't agree so I just wrote that for the hell of it.

It seems from your replies that you're in love - with the house.
Buy it and find out.

I'll tell you that we bought our house twenty years ago and it was pretty big. Not as big as this one but good-sized for the Bay Area. As we have aged, (you will too) I have come to appreciate why people downsize. Big time! Maintenance, roofs, rot, defects, count me the ways in which one can be surprised and I will tell you tales.

You'd better be really committed.

permanent_marker says

being in bay area, I can only DREAM of a house like that! damn!!

This is what everybody *thinks* they want. But after reading some of the responses. I think I'll stick with my 1200sqft bay area house but I'll take the 1.8 acre lot.

TechGromit says

I think the housing bubble has seriously affected your ability to form logical thoughts. The Housing Market WILL recover, eventually. Weather it's 5, 10 or even 20 years down is anyone guess. To believe prices will go down forever or stay flat is just as delusional as people who thought prices would always go up during the bubble.

How about 50 years? More than likely, he (and I for sure) will be dead by then. Will house prices have risen enough by then to cover the cost of selling? If not, maybe his kids can sell it at a profit during the next bubble.

6 Bathrooms

It would be nice to have all those bathrooms,in a bad case of Diarrhea!!.

Best Regards

Another similar home shows such homes were selling for mid $350K or so back in 1997. Apply the Shiller doctrine regarding inflation, i add in 50% at most and would say around mid 550K. So it seems there is plenty of downside left.

Property History for 20712 DELTA Dr
Date Event Price Appreciation Source
Sep 08, 2011 Sold (Public Records) $760,000 -3.5%/yr Public Records
Aug 31, 2011 Sold (MLS) (Sold) $760,000 -- Inactive MRIS #MC7595135
Jul 21, 2011 Pending (Contingent (No Kick Out)) -- -- Inactive MRIS #MC7595135
Jul 09, 2011 Price Changed ** -- Inactive MRIS #MC7595135
May 09, 2011 Delisted * -- Inactive MRIS #1
May 07, 2011 Listed (Active) * -- Inactive MRIS #1
May 06, 2011 Listed (Active) ** -- Inactive MRIS #MC7595135
Sep 13, 2007 Sold (Public Records) $875,000 6.2%/yr Public Records
Aug 24, 2007 Sold (MLS) (Sold) $875,000 -- Inactive MRIS #MC6407216
Jul 20, 2007 Delisted -- -- Inactive MRIS #MC6407216
Jul 18, 2007 Relisted -- -- Inactive MRIS #MC6407216
May 12, 2007 Listed ** -- Inactive MRIS #MC6407216
Jun 24, 2003 Sold (Public Records) $679,900 10.9%/yr Public Records
Dec 04, 1997 Sold (Public Records)
more info . $383,500 -- Public Records
Dec 04, 1997 Sold (Public Records) $383,500 0.0%/yr Public Records

what is this Shiller Doctrine. very house across the US is supposed to appreciate at the exact same rate. So 1 acre in Detroit = 1 acre in Manhattan right?

clambo says

Why are you posting this? Your wife is going to decide whether or not you buy a house. Cut the baloney we're adults here.

Man, this is damn painfully straight forward. Of course, we just don't know this is the case or not, though it is the case for many.

Utility/heating/maintanance can be a serious issue. I can rarely see houses from past decades fully insulated. The heating/cooling cost can get ridiculously high. I am talking about over $500/mo in the winter times. But, it seems like he is aware of all those cost issues and willing to take them. He earns a lot, drives big 7 series Bimmer. So, let him deal with them, if that's what he want to go for. As you know, I am freaking bearish and cheap as hell. But in this case... :)

permanent_marker says

being in bay area, I can only DREAM of a house like that! damn!!

I can show you few picture perfect, calender worthy sort of absolutely gorgeous SFH. For example...

http://www.redfin.com/MD/Thurmont/13304-Jimtown-Rd-21788/home/17464987

What do you think? It's only 530K. Dirt cheap, isn't it?

But, I'd say they're for wealthy retired, or for your eyes only. Maybe you can go buy it if you love to fight a bear, going to fox hunting or being chased by a herd of deers.
About that particular house, I wonder if you still remember a movie called blair witch project. This is that kinf of area. Actual blair, burkittsvile MD is 15 min driving from the house. :)

clambo says

Why are you posting this? Your wife is going to decide whether or not you buy a house. Cut the baloney we're adults here.

You're gonna buy something and the question is whether it's this one or a "cheaper" one. Guess what? She wants the biggest one you can get.

Oh, and I bet she runs around telling people this is 10,000 square feet. Has a nice ring to it.

When you DO buy a house it's gonna be on your shoulders because she can't both work effectively and care for infants. Oh, there's child care. Yeah, and that is like paying another mortgage.

Buy the nicest, cheapest, smallest house you can stand. This will discourage you and your wife from filling it with a bunch of expensive junk too.

She won't agree so I just wrote that for the hell of it.

Clambo, that was hilarious.

Let's see. First of all, I think the place is tolerable on the outside, but pretty repulsive looking on the inside: very 80s. However, that is a matter of taste.

I agree with Thomas Wong, that there is a big downside to the price of this place. I'd put it at 550k if things stay relatively normal, and a LOT LESS if things get worse.

Why do you assume that your job is so secure? Just curious. A lot of people who though their jobs were secure, are finding otherwise. Also, I also agree with Clambo that the odds that your wife will want to keep working once you have a kid, are very small (and I'm female).

Gaithersburg has a surprisingly high crime rate (check the Sperling's Best Places website). If I were a burglar, that place would be very appealing. If I were a home invader, ditto.

Expect taxes to skyrocket. Sorry, but homeowners are sitting ducks.

It sounds like you and your wife are better prepared for Monster House living than most people (esp. the fact that you're handy). And w/loads of relatives around, you'll get more use out of a big place than most people would. However - remember that many of your *neighbors* who live in 6 bathroom houses are NOT handy, and won't have the money to keep their place maintained. Being from New England, I can tell you of many Monster Houses of years gone by (Victorians, Edwardians, Colonials) that has fallen into disrepair because they are just too big to deal with. YOU may be able to deal, but if your neighbors can't, that's a problem.

Hey folks, don't get so hung up on "10,000" square feet.

1. Older houses like this have a lot of "dead" square footage: long hallways, too large laundry areas, stairway landings, etc. Look at the area dedicated to front entry - not an inch of it is "habitable".

2. Bedrooms tend to be smaller and closets are smaller. (Though the master in this house appears to be a good size with good size bathroom.)

3. The basement is the biggest offender. It looks like a clinic - no finish, no clearly defined spaces - just raw footage which most often ends up as storage and a place for kids to thrash.

Determine the "habitable" square footage and crunch some numbers with it.

Also, take the largest square footage comps, develop a dollar-per-square foot value and determine what this house would be worth if it were only as big as the biggest comps. Any square footage over that should be treated as an amenity - like a pool, extra garages, outbuilding, etc. - attributes that make the house attractive to you but don't carry the value of the habitable space.

Thanks for listening.

SFace says

Notwithstanding that 75% of the Sq ft are useless>

Probably more, until they pop out a few junior tyrants to tear ass around the shack. Think Danny in The Shining.

What's weird is that in my experience, those desirous of houses with wings are rarely *into* anything. They never have amazing libraries or interesting collections of anything. It's either all about entertaining or big for bigs sake or the whole thing is an elaborate front for their alter egos; think Batman.

as you will spend 90% of the time in the same 1000 sq ft, I can't imagine how I will feel sleeping at night when the spouse have to travel overnight for business.

That's actually a good point. Hell, 1250 sq ft can feel positively cavernous when your wife's out of town.