patrick.net

Dan8267 says

This is from Project Censored. There were a whole bunch of articles and estimates by human rights groups a few years ago. I don't remember where they are though.
The main problem with estimating deaths is that politicians like to count dead bodies precisely because this grossly underestimates the number of casualties. After all, if you blow up a body, you can't count it because all the pieces are too small.

Thanks for this info. I'm just catching up with this thread after taking off for, ironically, Christmas holiday. I've been very upset about how much of my tax money went to the invasion of countries with land over huge oil fields.

wthrfrk80 says

My question is: why are some things acceptable, and other things not? Is there some scientific way to "prove" rape is wrong? I agree with you fully that rape is wrong. But I can't prove it scientifically. Or at least, I don't know how to prove it scientifically. I'm not aware of anyone else who's been able to prove it scientifically. Maybe you are smarter than the rest of us and can prove it scientifically.

I've taken to the idea that by showing the effects of some acts on society, that we will agree that we don't want those effects so we don't want the acts. The effects can be shown scientifically, but we've got a long way to go to get to a common understanding on, for example, the longterm social or psychological effects of acts like murder. Still, there is some agreement that we don't want the crying mother who just found out their child died in war.

Dan8267 says

No argument I have given is based on emotion. And quoting Wikipedia, as I have said many times, is a sign of intellectual laziness.

I don't agree. I look at the references used in a Wikipedia entry before using the entry as a source and will often just use the references that meet peer review and historical review, source standards with which I've found consistency and connection to my understanding instead of using the wikipedia entry.

Dan8267 says

Because of this seven became a holy, magic number. This is how people in ancient Middle East and southern Europe thought about the universe. They thought numbers were magical. This isn't something we modern people take seriously, but the ancients certainly did.

I wish modern people didn't take it seriously, but many still do! Agreement happens so slowly!(especially, when jerks like me go back and comment on three month old threads...)

FunTime says

I look at the references used in a Wikipedia entry

If the article is subverted, the list of references is biased.

Dan8267 says

Physics leaves no room for the supernatural.

But leaves plenty of room for things people don't understand and might call "supernatural." Holy shit, there's some weird stuff going on!

Dan8267 says

If the article is subverted, the list of references is biased.

Ah, I think I can see how that would happen. I usually look for favorite references and go look at them, but I can see how bias would occur, even given the supposed collaborative genius of wikis. I still don't know enough about how they manage wikipedia to take it very seriously. I just keep thinking I'm going to read it at a point when some innaccurate info snuck in. What you're suggesting is even worse.

wthrfrk80 says

But as we all know, the war was an "epic fail", Iraqi oil never made it to market, oil went to $140/bbl in 2008, and the economy crashed anyway.

Maybe it was a fail, but as I watched the news these kinds of headlines seemed to suggest U.S. companies were benefiting from the war.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/earnings/2008-10-30-exxonmobil_N.htm