patrick.net

Dan8267 says

And please, don’t misinterpret the experiment as so many do as believing that the cat really is both dead and alive. That is not the right answer.

Gawlleee Dan, your smart. Nice job trying to obfuscate my point.

I said very explicitly my point had nothing to do with particle physics.

Even here when I make a point about logic that any smart 10 year old can understand, Dan doesn't even try to understand my incredibly simple point. Instead, he launches in to an effort to show us all how smart he is.

Here:

You are right. If we take the fact that we can not know whether there is a God as an axiom,

Then the statement God exists is false.

My point:

The statement God does not exist is equally false.

My apologies if I didn't make that clear enough. Also my apologies for thinking that this simple and elegant thought experiment might be used to illustrate a logical point outside of the quantum mechanics context it's known for. I'm such a fool sometimes.

I will admit his response was predictable, but not what I was hoping for. Next prediction: My New "Enlightened Atheist" Thread which is meant to be appreciated in it's entirety will be broken apart in a statement by statement, phrase by phrase, Shrek like manner, probably before he even reads the whole thing.

marcus says

Nice job trying to obfuscate my point.

To even suggest that I attempted to obfuscate your point or anyone else's is clearly disingenuous. Frankly, I would have thought by now, Marcus, that you would have at least understood the basic philosophy of men like me. We believe that no lies or trickery are necessary to defend the truth and nothing false is worth defending. It therefore goes against our core beings to obfuscate any opposing idea, make any straw man arguments, or use any deception of any kind to make a point (unless, of course, we then reveal the deception to demonstrate a greater truth).

You just don't get it, Marcus. For me, it's not about being right. It's about what is right.

If an opponent were to show me that I was wrong about an idea, I would then immediately correct my worldview to correct the mistake. By my standard, I win any debate which ends with me saying, "You're right. I was wrong.". After all, I come out of such a debate more knowledgeable than I went in. You really don't understand that, do you?

marcus says

I said very explicitly my point had nothing to do with particle physics.

And that has nothing to do with my reply.

marcus says

Even here when I make a point about logic that any smart 10 year old can understand, Dan doesn't even try to understand my incredibly simple point.

I'd like to put that hypothesis to the test, but I get to design the experiment.

marcus says

Instead, he launches in to an effort to show us all how smart he is.

I don't consider myself smart. I consider other people dumb. In my head, you all should know the stuff I discuss simply on the basis of graduating from high school.

Nevertheless, your misinterpretation of my posting says far more about you and your insecurities than it does about me. I merely explained as clearly, concisely, and completely as I could what Schrödinger's thought experiment means and the background on why it was created. You were supposed to come out of this experience with a better understanding of what quantum mechanics is, what the Uncertainty Principle says, how the Copenhagen Interpretation differs from the Uncertainty Principle, and what Schrödinger was trying to convey. I have no idea why you would interpret that as intellectual bragging, especially when none of these things have anything to do with me personally. If I pointed out that someone's proof that the square root of two is rational is incorrect and provided the correct proof that it was irrational, would you call that bragging, too?

marcus says

If we take the fact that we can not know whether there is a God as an axiom,

Then the statement God exists is false.

My point:

The statement God does not exist is equally false.

My apologies if I didn't make that clear enough.

I hate to break this to you, but you're still not being clear. The statement "We cannot know whether or not X exists." cannot be an axiom regardless of what you substitute for X. Perhaps it could be a conclusion, but as a premise it makes no sense. The best you could do is make it an assumption, but assumptions can be incorrect. Allow me to demonstrate.

We cannot know whether or not lunar water exists.

Wait, we could crash a spacecraft and see if we detect any water vapor. And, in fact, that's what NASA did. And even if it were not technologically possible, the assumption itself would have either been correct or incorrect. So, your conclusion is still wrong.

Perhaps the whole English language thing is tripping you up. I suggest using the language of mathematics to demonstrate your point. Math was made to precisely to discuss such issues. Might I suggest Finite Model Theory and First-Order Predicate Logic? The precise nature of that language leaves no room for bullshit or inconclusiveness about the correctness of a logical argument.

Do be aware, though, that I do this shit for a living. Why just today I wrote a recursive stored procedure in TSQL, Microsoft's implementation of the Structured Query Language, and SQL is just sugar-coated first order predicate logic. The sproc does content composition through macro expansion allowing you to plug in different content independent of its structure. Here's a taste of what real, hard-core logic looks like. So if you can't handle the stuff below, don't be surprise that you can't beat me at logic.

marcus says

I will admit his response was predictable

Of course, you clearly wrote this thread in response to another one in which we were discussing metaphysics. I would be disappointed in you if you didn't only anticipate my replying to the thread, but in fact were counting on it.

marcus says

but not what I was hoping for. Next prediction

Sorry to disappoint, but I really don't know what you were hoping for. I'd likely be willing to oblige though as long as doing so doesn't involve deception.

marcus says

Next prediction: My New "Enlightened Atheist" Thread which is meant to be appreciated in it's entirety will be broken apart in a statement by statement, phrase by phrase,

Of course, I always do you the favor of being systematic and precise in addressing each statement in your logical sequence no matter how misguided that sequence is. The corrections I give to you are always specific, just like what your math teachers used to do.

marcus says

Shrek like manner

Nothing I do is Shrek-like in manner, a point even Shrek himself would agree with. Just take a look at some of the Shrek/Dan arguments. I've trounced him far worse than you. I do not discriminate based on political views. Bad logic is bad logic regardless of its conclusion.

marcus says

probably before he even reads the whole thing.

Actually, I do tend to read all your entire posting before tearing it apart. However, for clarity I follow the argument line by line rather than jumping around randomly. Also, it is not necessary to read an entire mathematical proof before pointing out where it is wrong. A proof is a very sequential thing by nature. As soon as you come across the first incorrect statement, you can discard the proof in its entirety. A single mistake kills a proof. If you don't believe me, ask one of your old math teachers.

Marcus, don't take it personally. I'm not picking on you. I hate for any bad idea to spread and do my part to snuff them out no matter where they come from. If you look at the totality of my postings, you'll see that I tear down bad arguments from both the left and the right. I even tear down arguments in favor of my own conclusions if those arguments are flawed. Reaching the right answer for the wrong reason is also bad.

marcus says

If we take the fact that we can not know whether there is a God as an axiom

If I may help you marcus -- the starting point on any of these discussions has to be 'let us define God'.

For most people (as the Genius George Carlin rightly observed), God means 'Old man in the sky'. This definition is obviously false and delusional. Dangerous too, as we fight wars based on delusions.

Dan's point is: Take all the definitions of God ever existed (as stated by humans over the course of human history). They should be subject to scientific scrutiny as much as anything else. This scrutiny is the best method we've had so far to eliminate BS and get to the truth.

marcus says

Then the statement God exists is false.

My point:

The statement God does not exist is equally false.

You haven't even defined what God is. Is God Schrodinger's cat? Is it something else?

I think atheism by definition has the ability to doubt and be skeptical about anything.

Could there be a definition of God that we're not aware of that may come up in the future? Sure, but that definition is subject to the same scrutiny as everything else.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/YltEym9H0x4

"I find it much more interesting not knowing" - Feynman

Being comfortable with the unknown is a foundational aspect of science. Because as Feynman says, we're trying to find out.

Dan, if you just sat down and wrote that out yourself, then you must be a very good teacher or professor. I understood the information completely.

Truthplease says

Dan, if you just sat down and wrote that out yourself, then you must be a very good teacher or professor. I understood the information completely.

I'm not a teacher, but I have been accused of thinking like a mathematician.

I did just sit down and cranked out the explanation of Schrödinger's Cat, but I could do that because I have read a lot about physics. And I've read a lot about physics because I find it very interesting. It's amazing how much curiosity can motivate a person to learn about a subject, but you have to be curious.

The more you're curious, the more you learn, the more you understand, and the better you can explain a subject matter. In this respect, curiosity is more important than intelligence.

Still, it's great to hear that my explanation was indeed clear. I was afraid that I was omitting too many details about a rather complex and deep subject matter.

Dan8267 says

I hate to break this to you, but you're still not being clear. The statement "We cannot know whether or not X exists." cannot be an axiom regardless of what you substitute for X. Perhaps it could be a conclusion, but as a premise it makes no sense. The best you could do is make it an assumption, but assumptions can be incorrect. Allow me to demonstrate.

Of course we can make that an axiom, if we agree to, and if you knew what an axiom is. Note my use of the word "if"(in "If we take the fact that we can not know whether there is a God as an axiom"). You can of course say that you reject that as an axiom, that is that for the purposes of our discussion you will not accept it as an axiom.

But yes, of course it could be used as a starting point (if we agree (again that's why I said "if"))from which a logical argument can be built. Yes, it is basically an assumption. This is what an axiom is - something you assume to be true (something that can not be proven true, but which seems to obviously be true) to be used as a starting point, for building other provable truths which use the axioms as their basis.

Okay. I have given up before, and I will again. Should have stuck with my instincts. The funny thing, and what makes me not want to even participate in this forum anymore, is that I doubt there is anyone reading this that even comprehends how full of it (and yourself) you are. Well, God only knows they must see the latter.

I've rarely in my life (an I'm an old man compared to you) witnessed such trollish and adolescent like arrogance. I said before that I thought you are a teenager or perhaps in college. I really hope, for your sake, that you are.

marcus says

I've rarely in my life (an I'm an old man compared to you) witnessed such trollish and adolescent like arrogance.

You haven't been around the block if I'm the worst thing you've ever encountered. Marcus, just admit that you suck at reasoning and try to find something else that you might be good at, like being a grumpy old man.

I've actually tried to enlighten you by showing you precisely where your logic fails and how to correct it. A mature adult would have welcome that help. Instead you throw these little tantrums and get all emotional like a 6-year-old.

Luckily, any objective person reading the various threads on patrick.net will clearly see that your illogical rambles are well refuted by the more rational of us. So, although I have failed to bring you up to the level of adult conversation, I believe my responses may have saved countless others from taking the descent into your lavatory of misreasoning and blatant falsehoods. And I count that as a victory.

marcus says

I said before that I thought you are a teenager or perhaps in college.

No, but I do date college-age women.

Quantum Mechanics are not real, it only acts to serve as an abstract thought compiler. With out Quantum Mechanics, thought processes that would otherwise be gobbledygook can be placed in context parsed and compiled. You get micro processors the size of a flake of dandruff, but no where in Quantum Mechanics is there a blueprint for such technology. It only served as an abstract modeler.

Much like religion has kept mankind from flogging its self into oblivion, with a fetid bacterial tainted morning star. It creates a moral boundary, a frame work that says such atrocities are wrong. Unless of course you are doing it in the name of God.

Obviously it was a mistake for me to use Schrodengers Cat for my simple point. And I think that I already apologized for using it totally out of any particle physics context.

It is true that there are different types of logic. But if we say that a statement has to be either true or false, and if we assume that we can not know with certainty whether God exists , then if someone says "God exists" that is indeed a false statement. Likewise if someone says "God does not exist," that is a false statement.

Some would limit their definition of God so as to say that it is such an outlandish possibility, that they can deny it out of hand, and that this is logical. Just as it would be logical to deny that there are tiny living unicorns in the clouds (without proving it).

But this denies that that there are many definitions of God, some which are relatively sophisticated and subtle and or vague, or even intentionally somewhat undefined. I think it can reasonably be argued that since a majority of humans believe in God in some way, including millions of humans that are more intelligent than any atheist reading this, it is therefore questionable to equate belief in God as being as out there as belief in unicorns in the clouds or leprechauns.

If you still don't get the context of my point or what I was responding to, at this point I'll let it go. Basically I was arguing with someone who had no intention of understanding my point of view and truly responding to it, which interestingly, for some people is a good substitute for an argument. I'll admit, as a trolling tactic it is very effective (see Shrek).

I'm not going to do this anymore:

PersainCAT says

That's y something like god who by definition cannot be measured

Please define god. And make sure your definition includes that god cannot be "measured" and what "measured" means.

marcus says

Obviously it was a mistake for me to use Schrodengers Cat for my simple point. And I think that I already apologized for using it totally out of any particle physics context.

The fundamental mistake you made was trying to use the Schrödinger's Cat experiment to support an argument when you did not actually understand Schrödinger's Cat, and the reason you did not understand the experiment is that you never even heard of the Copenhagen Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. (Let's be honest. Before I explained the Copenhagen Interpretation, you never heard of it, like most people.)

It is impossible to understand Schrödinger's Cat without first knowing and understanding the Copenhagen Interpretation. In general, it is impossible to understand any specific argument of a subject matter without first being familiar with the background of the subject matter and the context in which the specific argument was made. This is true not only of physics, but for all subject matters.

The way to get the background information and the context is to read about the subject matter in detail. For Schrödinger's Cat and the Copenhagen Interpretation, the links I provided are sufficient. For subject matter in general, the Internet provides almost all of humanity's knowledge at your fingertips and Google makes searching almost trivial as long as you have the wisdom to skip over Wikipedia links and read skeptically to filter out bad or misleading information.

marcus says

It is true that there are different types of logic

Logic is universal like any branch of mathematics. You don't get to willy-nilly make your own flavor. The set of logical rules is well known, published throughout the Internet, and indisputable. You could discover/create a new logical rule, but its acceptance would be determined by peer review and whether or not it is accepted as valid is not a subjective matter. Either it works or it doesn't. Logic is "hard" like algebra or calculus, not "soft" like philosophy.

marcus says

But this denies that that there are many definitions of God, some which are relatively sophisticated and subtle and or vague, or even intentionally somewhat undefined.

There aren't that many different definitions of god. If there were, there could be no discussion about god. There are minor variations of what constitutes god or what properties god has, but throughout the past 3500 years monotheism has consistently presented one image of god, the Standard Monotheist God (SMG) or the Benevolent Sky Daddy.

The religion was founded by Zarathushtra in Persia -- modern-day Iran. It may have been the world's first monotheistic faith. It was once the religion of the Persian empire, but has since been reduced in numbers to fewer than 200,000 today. Most religious historians believe the the Jewish, Christian and Muslim beliefs concerning God and Satan, the soul, heaven and hell, the virgin birth of the savior, slaughter of the innocents, resurrection, the final judgment, etc. were all derived from Zoroastrianism.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/zoroastr.htm

A billion minor variations of SMG does not fix the inherent problems of SMG. As such all SMGs are disprovable and I have repeatedly disproven all possible SMGs. The only significant alternative to SMG ever presented by any monotheist in history is Clock Maker God (CMG), and I have proven that CMG is no god, but rather Sheldon Cooper.

Whenever some monotheist or agnostic claims that god is undefinable or must be defined in a super vague way, that monotheist or agnostic is being disingenuous. He has a specific image of god, but cannot defend it, so he tries to leave open the possibility of his specific god through trickery. He argues meaningless nonsense on the belief that if he is vague and meaningless enough, no logical argument could touch his position. What he fails to realize is that this vague and meaningless nonsense can be called out as the bullshit it is. Furthermore, his vague and meaningless nonsense does not leave open the possibility of his or anyone else's very specific god, usually SMG.

Put simply, as soon as some believer says god wants you do behave this way, all those vague arguments for god go out the window. If we cannot know whether or not a god exist, we certainly cannot know that the god is against raping babies. And why would anyone worship or pray to such a god or base legislation on it?

Whenever any priest, politician, or faithful believer talks about god, he is not talking about some meaningless, unknowable god. Nor is he talking about some CMG. He is talking about SMG because only SMG can place demands on human behavior. Only SMG is useful to control people, to get them to vote some way, to get them to refrain from killing each other or having premarital sex, to get them to abolish gay marriage, to justify or denounce slavery, to pray or go to church/temple/mosque, or to make any moral statement. Whenever someone states that America is founded on god's law or is one nation under god, they are always talking about SMG.

Sure, you could define god as "a brown puppy", but no one else in the world is talking about what you're talking about when they talk about god. No one is saying, "I pledge allegiance to the flag… one nation under a brown puppy with liberty and justice for all. Brown puppy bless America." It is utterly ridiculous to try to justify three and a half millennia of monotheism by using a definition of god that is completely incompatible with the entire 3500 year history of monotheism, a definition that would be violently rejected by almost all of the people whose beliefs you are trying to defend.

marcus says

Basically I was arguing with someone who had no intention of understanding my point of view and truly responding to it, which interestingly, for some people is a good substitute for an argument.

One can only refute an argument after understanding it. I was able to refute everything you said because I understood what you were saying. Furthermore, had you made even a single correct statement, I would have gladly acknowledged it. For me, this was never a "you vs. me" thing. It was a "chaos and misconceptions vs. order and understanding" thing.

It should be clear to anyone of even modest intelligence that I have gone out of my way to understand your arguments and address in very specific detail precisely what was wrong with them. Just because I do not accept your arguments does not mean I did not read them with the intent of both understanding them and determining their truth. I have given you a more fair hearing than you will ever get anywhere else. It is simply that you did not make a good case.

Since you claim that I "no intention of understanding my point of view", I know that at least one of the two following statements must be true.

1. You are an idiot who cannot understand the intentions of others and assumes that people who reject your ideas must have bad intentions.

2. You are a liar and a poor one at that. The lies you tell are clearly false, but you are so used to speaking with morons that you believe people in general will believe your lies. You feel compelled to lie about anyone who shows that you made a mistake in order to protect your fragile ego.

I don't like reaching either or both of these conclusions, but the evidence clearly supports them. I much rather the result had been that you realized that the ground you were trying to defend isn't defendable and that even the most hard-core atheist is arguing for what he realizes to be an important truth whose acceptance would make the world a far better place. Unfortunately, your pride prevents you from acknowledging your mistakes and then correcting them, whereas my anal retentiveness insists on constantly detecting and correcting errors in my world view. Ironically, "pride is the root of all evil" according to your religion.

marcus says

Here:

You are right. If we take the fact that we can not know whether there is a God as an axiom,

Then the statement God exists is false.

My point:

The statement God does not exist is equally false.

This was my primary point in this thread. I have digressed here and there, but this was actually intended to be my one and only only point with this thread. Simple logic, and totally unrelated to the well known (or not) scientific context of the famous thought experiment. Again, my apologies that some found it impossible to remove the concept of SC from it's historical context.

(Note: For anyone who for whatever reason has a problem with my use of the word "axiom" here, please look it up, or better still just substitute the word "assumption.")

marcus says

Here:

You are right. If we take the fact that we can not know whether there is a God as an axiom,

Then the statement God exists is false.

My point:

The statement God does not exist is equally false.

PersainCAT says

The only "logic" that u can hold hard fast to and apply to god are things like Pascal's Wager. Everything else is faith.

You would be hard pressed to find me trying to use logic to prove God's existence or non existence.

My truth is that I don't know.

To the extent that I lean a little toward the belief side of agnosticism is really about my personal subjective beliefs, that I have no interest in arguing for.

All I have argued here (and evidently not very well), is against the idea that believing there is no God can be backed logically.

That is in this thread, I have only wanted to address something very very very specific.

And that was an assertion I have heard (multiple times) that essentially said, that since by definition we don't know whether there is a God, the statement God exists is false.

But the statement God does not exist is just as false (at least if we are truly using anything close to formal logic).

That's it. That's really the context in which I brought up the term "simple logic."

And again, my truth is that I don't know. Call me wishy washy wimpy relativist. But at least I am on extremely solid ground when I assert that I don't know.

I have problems with fundamentalists who think that others should have beliefs like theirs, and when they judge others. But it is somewhat understandable, or at least not surprising

But when an atheist takes the extreme position that they can prove that there is no God, and that any type of spiritual belief is bad, and that others need to be like them to improve the world, and they assert that it is their intelligence and logic that brought them to their beliefs rather than mostly ego, I figure they must be kidding (or trolling).

(which makes me a fool to respond,...right ?)

It just doesn't seem possible to me that any half way sensible person could be that arrogant.

marcus says

But when an atheist takes the extreme position that they can prove that there is no God, and that any type of spiritual belief is bad, and that others need to be like them to improve the world, and they assert that it is their intelligence and logic that brought them to their beliefs rather than mostly ego, I figure they must be kidding (or trolling).

1. The position that you can disprove a ridiculous hypothesis is not extreme.

2. Any type of spiritual belief is bad. Spiritual belief is just a euphemism for superstitious belief. And we have explained in detail why superstitious beliefs are bad. To remind you, they are bad because they promote irrationality, xenophobia, and bad decision-making. This is especially bad when we need rational behavior to prevent WWIII and to make sure we don’t destroy our planet’s ecosystem.

3. Atheists have never, ever claimed that others must be like us. It is a nonsensical claim since all atheists have in common is disbelief. There is as much variety in the population of atheists as there is in theists. What we have claimed is that the world would be a much more secure, safe, and free place if people stopped believing in Bronze Age myths and started thinking critically. And we have repeatedly proven this as well. For example, Bush said, “god told me to invade Iraq.” The result: about a million dead Iraqis including women and children.

4. It is reasoning that causes someone to become an atheist. And no matter how many times you hypocritically accuse atheists of being arrogant, you Marcus, are clearly the arrogant one.

Arrogant: The idea that man is made in the image of god.
Arrogant: The refusal to accept that man is descendant from monkeys, rodents, fish, etc.
Arrogant: The idea that your so important that your consciousness must continue to exist after you die even though there are no other animals on this planet that get that privilege. Hell, I say puppies are far more worthy!
Arrogant: The idea that a supreme that created the universe would take the time to listen to your petty little wants when you pray.
Arrogant: That there is anything at all special about your existence or the existence of mankind. The refusal to admit that even a tiny change in history a few million years ago, say a rodent getting eaten by a dinosaur 70 mya, would have prevented our species from even existing.
Arrogant: The refusal to listen to logic no matter how clearly it is explained.
Arrogant: The refusal to accept hard evidence including fossils, DNA, and carbon dating.
Arrogant: The presumption that your belief in some crazy shit should some how be respected more than someone’s belief in other crazy shit like aliens landing in Roswell or the Lock Neck Monster.
Arrogant: The presumption that religious people are more moral than atheists even though the religious are good out of fear of punishment and desire for a reward.
Arrogant: The belief that you could ever do anything to earn eternal bliss.
Arrogant: The belief that anyone else could ever do anything so terrible as to earn eternal torture.
Arrogant: The belief that your god is the one and only god.
Arrogant: Trying to convert others to worship your god instead of theirs when you have no evidence or reasoning that your god is better.
Arrogant: Claiming to have an absolute truth without a shred of evidence.
Arrogant: Claiming to have the power to forgive sins.
Arrogant: Claiming to speak on behalf of the alleged supreme being.
Arrogant: Subjecting children to brainwashing and abusing their natural trust of adults.
Arrogant: Creating dogma.
Arrogant: To use the Bible to justify slavery.
Arrogant: To look at the Milky Way galaxy, composed of some 400 billion stars, and the trillions upon trillions of other galaxies in a universe that is 13.8 billion years old and an estimated 90 billion light years in size, and conclude that all of this was created for man, the one beloved creature of god. How self-centered in the most literal sense.

No, Marcus, it is you and your brethren who are arrogant. Atheism is the humble philosophy that all of existence doesn’t revolve are you, and that you should be grateful for the tiny flickering of consciousness you get in a much larger time scale in which you don’t exist. For you to call us arrogant is the most ludicrous example of hypocrisy mankind has ever seen.

Even Dan has a

Dan8267 says

tiny flickering

Dan8267 says

you should be grateful

Wow. Interesting. Well said. I guess he's grateful to the universe. "Thank universe, I exist."

He's still an idiot though. And by the way, Dan, I agree that many atheists are humble (unlike you). But those many don't go beyond asserting what they believe, or actually, only what they don't believe.

Dan8267 says

you and your brethren

What is my position Dan ?

I'm just the objective agnostic, observing the ridiculously religious atheist you are.

Dan8267 says

There is as much variety in the population of atheists as there is in theists.

True, and you are to athiests what a islamic fundamentalist (or extreme Christian fundamentalist) is to the theists.

Dan8267 says

Any type of spiritual belief is bad.

Dan8267 says

your so important that your consciousness must continue to exist after you die even though there are no other animals on this planet that get that privilege.

I don't believe this, and I guarantee that many adult Christians either outright don't believe it, or they at least seriously doubt it.

Here's the biggest flaw in your "logic."

On the one hand, not only do you not believe in God ( the true humble atheist position), you take it further, asserting there is no God, and that you magically know that the bad done by religion is greater than the good. Apparently, your argument here is that there is bad, therefore it is greater than the good.

On the other hand, since you don't believe, you don't really know what an adult belief in God would be. You haven't experienced it. You haven't tried it on for size. Or if you did it was a silly childish view of heaven, and of sky Daddy etc.

Well congratulations if you can reject that. I'll give you this. You understand the flaw here, so you assert that any kind of belief other than the sky Daddy belief is no belief at all.

But if you read the writings of famous Catholic, Protestant or Jewish mystics you will find that their belief is nothing like a belief in a sky Daddy. They are mostly blown away by the *mystery and they believe there is something (besides the universe itself - although you might think of it that way) that we don't have words for, that is both external to them and internal, which is where they direct their gratitude.

Where is your gratitude directed Dan ?

(note: my use of the word mystery is not meant to imply a substitute for uderstanding or seeking scientific knowledge - but what kind of fool thinks that humans could get to a place where there is no mystery to our universe and our own existence ?)

Dan8267 says

This is especially bad when we need rational behavior to prevent WWIII and to make sure we don’t destroy our planet’s ecosystem.

If you had any common sense at all, and a little less ego, then you would be arguing only against the most ignorant fundamentalist point of view.

I'm guessing you have no clue how many mainstream Christians would agree with you.

Instead you want to alienate them, supposedly in your quest to positively influence the world ?

marcus says

Dan8267 says

your so important that your consciousness must continue to exist after you die even though there are no other animals on this planet that get that privilege.

I don't believe this, and I guarantee that many adult Christians either outright don't believe it, or they at least seriously doubt it.

Wow, you don't even understand the position you are defending. Well, I can't say I'm completely surprised.

Yes, adult Christians do believe in the soul and heaven. That's the whole draw of religion. To deny this is just plain silly. It's like claiming that Christians don't really believe that Jesus Christ is god. If they don't, they aren't really Christians. Of course, I suspect that quite a few so-called Christians are simply atheists who don't have the will or desire to rock the boat in their community.

Dan8267 says

we need rational behavior to prevent WWIII and to make sure we don’t destroy our planet’s ecosystem.

Dan,

If all life is just an accident with no real purpose, than why shouldn't we destroy our planet's ecosystem? It's all ultimately meaningless. Isn't it arrogant to say that life is better than non-life? If everything you assert on this forum is true, why value anything at all?

For most of us, life is a miserable and bitter struggle. And its ultimately all for naught, since we just die anyway. Why delay the inevitable? Why shouldn't we all just commit suicide?

If you belive that your life is ultimately insiginificant (and that it's arrogant to think otherwise), than why not just kill yourself now? Especially since religions make your life so miserable...

wthrfrk80 says

If all life is just an accident with no real purpose, than why shouldn't we destroy our planet's ecosystem? It's all ultimately meaningless.

Life is an emergent property of the universe. The fact that life exists on Earth rather than Mars or Venus is due to blind luck. If you want to call that an accident then fine. It’s not an accident like a car wreck, but an accident like winning the lottery.

Just because life isn’t planned by some higher being doesn’t make it meaningless. How many babies are the result of unplanned pregnancies? Does that make their lives meaningless?

If your grandfather decided to piss in a restaurant instead of holding it, he would have taken a different cab to work, and would have arrived later, and would have never run into your mother on the elevator. That is a very chaotic and random series of events, and had not every one played out exactly as they did, your grandparents would have married other people and you would not exist. So, yes, your very existence is due to random and completely unimportant shit happening in the past. Does that make your life meaningless?

The fact is that the difference between existence and non-existence is due to a lot of random and inconsequential things happening. This is true on the level of the individual as well as entire species and even entire worlds. Had our solar system formed slightly differently, we wouldn’t be here because the Earth wouldn’t be here.

wthrfrk80 says

Isn't it arrogant to say that life is better than non-life?

No. Why would it be? And why would it be at all arrogant to have a preference for sentience over non-sentience?

wthrfrk80 says

For most of us, life is a miserable and bitter struggle. And its ultimately all for naught, since we just die anyway. Why delay the inevitable? Why shouldn't we all just commit suicide?

If life were nothing but pain and misery, then suicide would make sense. I’m all for euthanasia and the rights of people to decide whether or not they continue living.

However, life is full of joyful experience. Have you ever rolled around with puppies? Try being miserable while doing that. It’s impossible.

wthrfrk80 says

If you belive that your life is ultimately insiginificant

Why the fuck would I think my life is insignificant? Does life have to be eternal to have meaning? Where’s the logic in that?

Hell, if there were an afterlife and innocent babies went to heaven when they died, we’d have a moral obligation to kill those babies before they could risk their immortal souls and eternal damnation.

The acceptance of the Christian afterlife and a conscience logically dictates the mass murder of babies to ensure their everlasting life in pure bliss. If I’m wrong and you’re right, then morality demands we kill babies. But if I’m right and your wrong, murdering babies is a terrible, terrible thing. The fact that you find the idea of the mass killings of babies to be repugnant, proves that instinctively, you know I’m right and there is no afterlife.

wthrfrk80 says

Especially since religions make your life so miserable...

Religion does not make my life miserable, although the religious evidently do try their best. But religion does make the world a far more dangerous place. Do you want Iran to get the bomb? I fear the irrationality of your religion for the exact same reason you fear the irrationality of Iran’s.

Furthermore, religion has hampered scientific, technological, social, and political advancement that would save countless lives and improve the living conditions of all people. If it hadn’t been for Christianity holding science back for a thousand years, we’d already have the cure for all cancers.

Good points all around.

I get what you're saying about "chaos" and sensitivity to "initial conditions." I'm both a meteorologist and mechanical engineer by training (I majored in both). If I remember right, "chaos theory" doesn't imply randomness, just determinism that is extremely sensitive to the initial state. Did you ever see that halloween episode of The Simpsons where Homer builds a time machine out of a toaster? Home keeps messing up the "present time" by stepping on bugs millions of years ago.

Dan8267 says

Hell, if there were an afterlife and innocent babies went to heaven when they died, we’d have a moral obligation to kill those babies before they could risk their immortal souls and eternal damnation.
The acceptance of the Christian afterlife and a conscience logically dictates the mass murder of babies to ensure their everlasting life in pure bliss. If I’m wrong and you’re right, then morality demands we kill babies. But if I’m right and your wrong, murdering babies is a terrible, terrible thing. The fact that you find the idea of the mass killings of babies to be repugnant, proves that instinctively, you know I’m right and there is no afterlife.

If I remember right, historic Christianity does NOT hold that babies are innocent. Christianity (rightly or wrongly) has the doctrine of "original sin". That's why, until the 1500s, all Christians "baptized" infants, believing that baptism actually worked salvation. It wasn't until the radical Anabaptist movement (google it for more info) that some Christians denied infant baptism.

I can tell you have a better understanding of Christianity than many "Christians!" Your quote above is a very strong refutation of every Christian denomination that denies infant baptism...I had never thought of it that way before!

I really do respect people who understand historic Christianity, even if they reject it themselves. I really have a hard time respecting someone who says "I'm a Christian, but I don't believe all that stuff about Jesus being God, sin, salvation, substitutionary atonement, hell (which Jesus taught), etc.

Yes, Christianity is a radical religion. It's too radical for most people, especially in a country like America. Jesus taught many radical things. As one person said "If Christ came today, the first thing we'd do is kill him again".

The mixing of Christianity and politics is a very toxic thing, I agree. When Constantine converted to Christianity and made it the official religion of the Roman Empire, Christianity went downhill fast. I believe politics to be an inherently satanic game (no matter who is doing it) and it's best to keep politics as far from Christianity as possible.

I really don't understand why so many "conservative" Christains seem to want an American Christian Theocracy. Christianity already tried Theocracy in Europe, and it resulted in a "church" that did all of those nasty things you describe. Like you pointed out in one of your other posts, Christianity has continued to fragment, with each power-hungrly "leader" trying to get his slice of the "pie." Will we humans ever stop trying to conquer Christ's church? How many denominations are there now?

wthrfrk80 says

If I remember right, historic Christianity does NOT hold that babies are innocent. Christianity (rightly or wrongly) has the doctrine of "original sin".

Whether or not the baptizing of the babies before they are murdered washes away original sin is irrelevant. No Christian sect is going to say that unbaptized babies, especially the unborn, are going to rot in hell for all eternally. To make such a claim would be to ensure that no one follows your sect.

As such all Christian sects believe that babies, baptized or not, will eventually go to heaven and have no risk of going to hell. The may differ on the details and the existence of limbo, but that's a minor point when considering all of eternity.

So my point stands. If the Christian afterlife hypothesis is correct, then it is a moral obligation to kill all babies. If the hypothesis is wrong, then it is a moral obligation to not kill all babies. Which conclusions are you willing to entertain? If only the later is acceptable morality to you, then you must deep down realize that there is no heaven.

wthrfrk80 says

I can tell you have a better understanding of Christianity than many "Christians!"

I grow up Catholic being taught by nuns and Christian brothers and had to take extremely boring classes like Church history. I know the teachings and the history of the Christian Church and all of its splits.

wthrfrk80 says

Yes, Christianity is a radical religion. It's too radical for most people, especially in a country like America. Jesus taught many radical things. As one person said "If Christ came today, the first thing we'd do is kill him again".

Christianity was a radical religion when it was started. That's why Christ was crucified. He was a threat to the establishment. After he died, like all rebels, he was cartoonified and incorporated into the state by Constantine, who found Christ useful for manipulating the peasantry of the Roman empire. Had that not happened, Christianity would not even exist. But when that happened, Christianity ceased being a radical religion and started towing the state line.

And yes, most Christians would reject Jesus today, particularly the fundamentalist. Jesus was a commie true and true. He demanded that you give all your possessions up to follow his way, and the only time he ever got pissed off was at the bankers or money changers as they were called. Christian philosophy is incompatible with capitalism. Yet, the religious right mistakes Gordon Gecko for Jesus. So, what little good Jesus's philosophies have, is lost on most Christians.

wthrfrk80 says

When Constantine converted to Christianity and made it the official religion of the Roman Empire, Christianity went downhill fast.

Make no mistake. Constantine's conversion was pure politics. He remained a pagan his entire life.

wthrfrk80 says

I really don't understand why so many "conservative" Christains seem to want an American Christian Theocracy.

Christian fundamentalists believe in the false premise that if they are extremely religious and evangelical and literally interpret the Bible, then their daughters won't become sluts. The fundamentalist movement came about in response to the sexual revolution. The Bible thumpers thought that cramming down religion would keep their girls from fucking. It didn't work. Rent any Girls Gone Wild video and listen to the accents. All the sluts come from the Bible Belt and the Heartland. You never see someone from an East Coast liberal college in Girls Gone Wild.

You see, it turns out, that making women dumb by using religion or other means turns them into sluts. Whereas, educating women with things like math, science, history, etc. makes them more capable of running their lives, starting careers, and avoiding the stripper pole. That's why you never see engineering majors from MIT or Princeton or even U. of Penn. on Girls Gone Wild. But the fundamentalists are too stupid to realize that teaching evolution rather than denying it would keep their daughters from exposing their pussies on Girls Gone Wild. I suppose that I should thank religion for that, as it's the only contribution to society it has ever made.

wthrfrk80 says

How many denominations are there now?

It is the nature of all religions to grow and fragment as selfish priests fight engage in power struggles for control of the dumb masses. Notice that this never happens in science. Science doesn't have denominations. The physics studied in America is the same that's studied in Russia, Australia, and everywhere else. Science unites, religion divides.

PersainCAT says

Your argument is moot to this point becasue
Technically if u follow the CONCEPTS taught in the bible (protestant) and the catholic church all unbelievers infants or not would go to hell. While most "sects" as u refer to them agree babies go to heaven as the bible doesn't strictly DEFINE one way or the other its not wrong(just unpopular) to have the opinion that babies would go to hell. Just look at St. Augustin, so your claim that ALL denominations agree is wrong.

- Technically if u follow the CONCEPTS taught in the bible (protestant) and the catholic church all unbelievers infants or not would go to hell.

If you go into any church and ask any priest on the record practically all, except for a few crackpots, will say unborn babies who die don't go to hell, nor do babies that die before baptism. Think about it. If a church actually preach that nonsense, it would upset parents who would join a different church the first time they lose a pregnancy, a common event especially before the 20th century.

Thus no church preaches that babies go to hell.

In fact such an absurdity would be ammunition to atheists who would point out what an evil fuck that god must be to do such a thing.

PersainCAT says

Just look at St. Augustin, so your claim that ALL denominations agree is wrong.

Show me the church advertising that shit.

Nonetheless, if babies go to hell, god is evil. If god is evil, he's not god since god has to be "all good".

If babies don't go to hell, my original point stands that the existence of the Christian afterlife would mean that killing babies is a moral imperative. Either way, you're mythology is fucked. That's the problem with contradicting the logical conclusion of your myths.

PersainCAT says

You forget that there's a commandment to NOT kill, even if it would send one soul to heaven. If you truly believe then the moral obligations is to follow gods orders. That trumps a notion that you are sending people to heaven.

Hardly. The morality of saving the souls of countless babies is far outweighs the morality of obeying a god's order. Furthermore, any non-evil god would be morally bound to not cast any such self-less person into hell. To risk ones own soul to save another's is the most moral act a person could possibly make -- that is, it would if the soul actually existed.

Ergo, either once again you accept the wholesale slaughter of babies or you reject the possibility of heaven.

There is no logical loophole you can exploit. The premise of heaven leads to the inescapable conclusion that it is far better for babies to die than live and risk their souls. And therefore, anyone who looks after the best interest of the babies must kill them since 100 years of life on Earth is nothing compare to all of eternity in heaven or hell. And that is why the concept of the afterlife is just plain retarded. And the fact that you are not accepting the logical conclusion means that you disbelieve in the afterlife and thus god as much as I do. And no amount of bullshiting is going to change that.

PersainCAT says

HAHA, keep thinking that science has many "schools of thought" which is effectively a scientific denomination.

Um, no.

Science is universal. It transcends all national, racial, regional, gender, political, social, and economic boundaries. Religion historically has promoted xenophobia and no amount of whitewashing can change that.

PersainCAT says

Economics are a good example Austrian v Keynesian comes to the top of my mind.

Economics is not a science. It should be, but it isn't. Not by a long shot.

PersainCAT says

As for physics as that's my specialty

Yeah, no physicist is going to quote Wikipedia when there are far better resources on the Internet. And your previous posts make me believe that you are a physicist as much as I'm the pope pretending to be an atheist just to mess with people.

That's a quote from you that I was refuting! Geeze, if you are going to contradict yourself, why should we believe you?

liv4ever says

the fact that men have distorted God's word does not make God a liar.

The fact is that men are the voices behind all god puppets. There is no supreme being that speaks for what is morally right. If there were, it wouldn't let "men" treat it like an ass puppet and feed it words.

liv4ever says

“in his image,” that is, the ability and capacity to love.

Meerkats have the capacity to love. Love, like all emotions, was created by evolution.

liv4ever says

Charles Darwin's nephew was the first one to use the term "eugenics".

Oh yes, Charles Darwin was a Nazi and he burned millions of Jews in ovens. Please, make that argument.

liv4ever says

Animals ARE souls- "And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind." Genesis 1:21

So PETA is right? Meat is murder?

Dan8267 says

After he died, like all rebels, he was cartoonified and incorporated into the state by Constantine, who found Christ useful for manipulating the peasantry of the Roman empire

That's a very interesting claim. Can you prove that?

Dan8267 says

And yes, most Christians would reject Jesus today, particularly the fundamentalist. Jesus was a commie true and true. He demanded that you give all your possessions up to follow his way, and the only time he ever got pissed off was at the bankers or money changers as they were called. Christian philosophy is incompatible with capitalism.

I don't think anyone is out there making the case that Christianity = Capitalism.

As for "Fundamentalist", I don't know what you mean by that. I don't think I've ever met a "fundamentalist." I've met lots of Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, etc.

Dan8267 says

Christian fundamentalists believe in the false premise that if they are extremely religious and evangelical and literally interpret the Bible, then their daughters won't become sluts. The fundamentalist movement came about in response to the sexual revolution. The Bible thumpers thought that cramming down religion would keep their girls from fucking

That's quite a claim. Can you back that up? I think your term "Bible thumpers" says more about you than it says about the "fundamentalist" people you don't like.

liv4ever says

it's not what you and I think that counts, it's what God thinks

That presumes the existence of god, which I and others have thoroughly discredited. And even if you were to take one of those bullshit "impossible to define god" stances, then you couldn't know what such a b.s. god thinks.

More importantly, what man thinks affects his behavior including the behavior of waging wars, using nuclear and biological weapons, protecting or destroying the environment, establishing social justice or totalitarian regimes. So, what man thinks matters.

liv4ever says

Dan8267 says

Arrogant: The belief that your god is the one and only god.

1. most important, what does God believe ?
2.You are guilty of this too aren't you. You essentially say your belief system is the best, because you have thought it over. What is wrong with that thinking and optimizing etc. ?

I would never say that one of my conclusions is best because I thought it over. That is antithetical to my world view. The messenger is irrelevant and the person who cranks out the math is irrelevant. What's important is the argument itself, not who makes it.

liv4ever says

however there is the danger of becoming dogmatic, if that is what you mean. But that goes for atheists as well.

I have yet to meet a single person who was irrationally atheistic. In theory that's possible, but it sure ain't the norm. Now irrational about faith, that's quite common. Why just this morning I was listening to NPR while driving my Volvo to work (yes, I'm a cliché), and on the radio a caller told the story below. I'll have to paraphrase from memory, but I'll get it as close as I can.

I was a little girl and during school one day I made a painting. I was so proud of it I excitedly ran up to the teacher and say, "Look what I created!" The teacher snapped at me, "Only god creates!"

Yep, that's someone I'd like teaching my kids.

wthrfrk80 says

Dan8267 says

After he died, like all rebels, he was cartoonified and incorporated into the state by Constantine, who found Christ useful for manipulating the peasantry of the Roman empire

That's a very interesting claim. Can you prove that?

What would constitute proof to you that Jesus was cartoonified?

wthrfrk80 says

I don't think anyone is out there making the case that Christianity = Capitalism.

Obviously, you haven't been listening to the Republicans for the past 30 years.

wthrfrk80 says

That's quite a claim. Can you back that up?

Yes

Watch the entire episode. It explains where, when, and why fundamentalism started.

wthrfrk80 says

I think your term "Bible thumpers" says more about you than it says about the "fundamentalist" people you don't like.

It says that I, like most people in the world, have no respect for people who behave badly and use religion as a justification for their actions. I reserve the right to pass judgment on assholes, especially assholes who poison the minds of children, bash gays and foreigners, and promote unjust wars.

Dan8267 says

It says that I, like most people in the world, have no respect for people who behave badly and use religion as a justification for their actions. I reserve the right to pass judgment on assholes, especially assholes who poison the minds of children, bash gays and foreigners, and promote unjust wars.

Dan,

Who are you to decide what is bad behavior? Prove it, scientifically. Otherwise, I asume you are just spouting your opinions which are no better than anyone else's. Who are you to judge?

It seems that your secular utopia will be just as "intolerant" and "judgemental" as the Bible thumper utopia.

Who are you to say what's right and wrong? Who made you judge?

Dan8267 says

Obviously, you haven't been listening to the Republicans for the past 30 years.

Right, I haven't been. All politics is bullshit, it's just cynical power games.

Dan8267 says

What would constitute proof to you that Jesus was cartoonified?

Anything. I'm still waiting for something specific. Like a claim that the written accounts of Jesus' life were somehow altered or "cartoonified".

Zlxr says

I don't pretend to define god for anyone other than what I believe - but it has struck me that in order to disbelieve in something - you have to have an idea of what you think it is in the first place

Well said. Exactly.

For example let's say you have some nuanced beliefs that you have cultivated over your entire life, and these are personal beliefs that you can't even describe. And let's also say that tangential to these beliefs, is your membership to a community, that has some traditions and rituals, that I sort of do understand, but I take them literally, and I have rejected these traditions (for myself). But because of my particular emotional and ego makeup, it's not enough for me to reject them just for myself. Like Richard Dawson I come along and say that even though I have almost no clue what it is you believe (I can not relate to these beliefs in the slightest), I am going to tell you that your beliefs are not only wrong, but that all people that have any of an entire class of beliefs of which you beliefs fit, are wrong and are irrational. Furthermore, mankind would be better off if nobody had beliefs like yours.

If I made such claims, as Richard Dawkins and other extremist religious atheists do, I would have to be inconceivably arrogant, or emotionally unhinged (or both), or possibly as Einstein put it, simply still hung up on the process of tearing myself away from religious dogma of my youth.

"The fanatical atheists," Einstein said in correspondence, "are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the 'opium of the masses'—cannot hear the music of the spheres."

Although Einstein did not believe in a personal God, he indicated that he would never seek to combat such belief because

such a belief seems to me preferable to the lack of any transcendental outlook

(Jammer, Max (2002). Einstein and Religion: physics and theology. Princeton: Princeton University Press)

wthrfrk80 says

Who are you to say what's right and wrong? Who made you judge?

What are you bitching about now? Are you complaining that I think it is wrong to rape and murder? OK, you go out and do those things and then tell a judge who he is to say what's right and wrong.

Wtf does any of that have to do with this thread and Marcus's incorrect argument that the Schrödinger's Cat thought experiment means that there is a god?

In any case, this thread has certainly shown how nasty and mean Christians are. And that's the best argument against your religion one could make.

Try to talk objectively about the existence of god with the faithful and they bring out the pitch forks. And that alone is sufficient reason to not spread the virus of religion to the next generation.