patrick.net

What the....

Well I for one am very, very skeptical of things like the inquisition. Religious wars etc. Such things are used to titillate religion "zombies".

I can see it being used by the leaders of a country to "incite" their "religous" population into doing something. The leaders of countries who are usually swindlers of sorts. Way to fast to buy into religious bullshit. They have to know whats real and whats not. Are after property, booty, land something of value.

Books are filled with bullshit of the past. Just look at the bullshit going on today. Leaders of nations are portrayed in some at the very least "righteous cause" That would appeal to either the Humane morals" or "Religious morals" of a person.

I believe that "morals" or real indignation really appears in places where the population as a whole decides to take a cause on with little leadership and overthrow the outrages perpatrated against them. For everyday people to do that takes a lot.

When it swings on a common axis. Like centeralized leadership. Look out there is going to be all kinds of manipulation on many different levels of the population. Another words look carefully at how they are trying to incite different parts of their populations.

That might be what "some" are saying here because they are victims of such incitements. In a sly way by their governments. Then on a very different level by religion itself. Some look at it as simply "education" of people that are programmed to be religious or caught up in such. Even that is done in such a way as to incite religious at the present time. It in of itself may do the same thing.

It would take something like the Vatican coming out and saying look this is what we did. These are the reasons we did it. This is who we did it with and why.

Division is interesting. It alienates. Then again it binds people together in commonality on either side of the division. It brings on a hurried social structure around that comminality. It forms relationships with the people in the division. An entire structure dedicated to the opposition of the other side of the division. It sets up leadership (which you would be very, very suprised to find the dividers usually setting up) So they can "steer" the division wherever they want it to "go". Very few exceptions in that. There can be a binding or seperating of those divisions depending on what purpose they have. In this present case the centrifuge coming apart. Advanced knowledge. Not imparted. Well planned out. Then brought forward.

Dan8267 says

Man does not need a god to justify his lust for land and riches. Sure, it helps. But absent a god, man will find other excuses to slaughter the vulnerable and take their land and natural resources.

So you admit the possibility of "evil" without religion? And the possibility that religion might not be inherently evil, but is often twisted to justify inherent desires for land, resources, money, and power?

http://www.youtube.com/embed/dXYl5NrHPb4

Dan8267 says

I have yet to hear of a single incident in which a community of atheists have threatened or tried to punish a person for being a monotheist.

Maybe not in the USA...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet_Union

Incidents are used to incite. Everyday people. Unless huddled in their oh so secret "division" hold their secrets fast.

People get along. Once I said. I can go anywhere I mean anywhere. In any city on earth and get along with the people in any part of any city. Same holds for you to if you have ever tried.

Reason comes into play. Its for various things. However being with someone not like you demands reason. Reason is an everyday protection. Really its a nice thing to have. It says you have a heart just like me. Sure we have differences. Maturity can work those out really well. Its always good to know when someone is trying to "game" you especially people you don't know. You look at whats coming out at you from a television or newspaper or some report. They are total strangers you never interact with. There is no reason only theirs and your reasoning with yourself. You never get to reason back so their is "no" relationship there. It's difficult in many cases for you to ascertain what they are up to. So you go out an find a "live" person to interact with based off of what someone you can't interact with said. Who's purpose you don't understand or know. Because there is no interaction.

Sure you know Becky from newsland. You see her everyday. Becky dosen't know shit from Shihana about you. You don't know what Becky's up to anymore than know what your best friend is up to at this minute. You don't completely trust your best friend. (you don't want him to think your an idiot). Why in the fuck would you trust Becky (who you can't test) a total stanger to tell you anything true?

The incitement forms once again a very fast combining of a division. They interact. Their social interaction picks up very fast. People fall for this shit every single day. I choose to ignore it for the most part. Seperating bullshit from whats real. It's nessesary because I don't like bringing crap into where my friends are to analyze.

You must also realize that what is true. Is a threat to the people that don't want that truth to be known. They have goals they want to accomplish. It leads to frustration in reaching that goal. You have to recognize that your goals are legitimate also. Your a person on this earth also. The faluire in all of this mentioned. Is no interaction which leads to frustration with one way communication. Your saying HEY I'm not stupid pay attention. I have your best interest at heart. Listen to this. Eliminate the part where they think your dumb and dumber. Then to - I have that ability. Recognize it. Then reason just possibly maybe can begin.... Before you think reason is easily obtained. Its not. Sometimes it requires jolting. Time and time again. Until the realization comes. Hey what we are dealing with here isn't stupidity it is something very, very serious. Time to engage in some human interaction. Because bullshit is not working on a very serious person. That once again has my best interests at heart. Time to let go and reason into a really nice future.

I've never understood how some of the most vocally patriotic people in the US can also be in favor of flying the confederate flag. Flying the confederate flag a seditious act. Making statements like "the south shall rise again" is a seditious act.

thomas.wong1986 says

You do realize the many European settlers who only had faith in GOD brought them to the new world. It wasnt technology, but faith and their religion that brought them here. Was that a move backward or holding society back. NO! And add to that the migration into the west.. all based on faith in God.

And not that long ago explores to the moon quoted the bible...I dont see anyone suing NASA or Apollo crew back in the 1960s for quoting the Bible or seperation of church and state. .

These great human achievements and faith in God is something to be proud of.. It make you proud being an American .. it makes you proud being a Christian.

And faith in god isn't going to get you across the Atlantic ocean or to the moon. If it did, people would have gotten to the moon well before 1969. Put your faith in god if you like, I'll put mine in people.

It is true that some of the original colonists were religious zealots of one sort or the other. Lucky for us the founding fathers constructed a state that is secular and allows us not only freedom of religion, but also freedom from religion. You want to pray, go pray in private. Don't force or drag people into it who want nothing to do with it.

It's just four words she could choose not to say them? Ok, it's just four words, how about everyone else just mentally add them themselves? Are christians not capable of such "strenuous" mental activity?

Christians need to stop confusing not getting their way 100% of the time with religious persecution.

omgbacon says

I've never understood how some of the most vocally patriotic people in the US can also be in favor of flying the confederate flag. Flying the confederate flag a seditious act. Making statements like "the south shall rise again" is a seditious act.

Therefore wearing a Lynyrd Skynyrd T-Shirt is treason...

Do you know of anyone calling any member of LS a biggot or racist, either in the 70s up to today ?

omgbacon says

And faith in god isn't going to get you across the Atlantic ocean or to the moon. If it did, people would have gotten to the moon well before 1969. Put your faith in god if you like, I'll put mine in people.

Ask yourself why they quoted the bible in Space during the Apollo 8 Moon mission ?

omgbacon says

It is true that some of the original colonists were religious zealots of one sort or the other. Lucky for us the founding fathers constructed a state that is secular and allows us not only freedom of religion, but also freedom from religion. You want to pray, go pray in private. Don't force or drag people into it who want nothing to do with it.

Thats not a fact, its only your opinion.. anyone can pray any place at any time, and the Govt cannot prohibit such actions.
Congress in public, starts its sessions with a prayer...

Below is Todays prayer as Congress met to start the day...

http://chaplain.house.gov/

Opening Prayer

02/16/2012
Reverend Patrick J. Conroy, S.J.

Eternal God, through whom we see what we could be and what we can become, thank You for giving us another day.

In these days, our Nation is faced with pressing issues of conscience, constitutional religious and personal rights, and matters of great political importance.

We thank You that so many Americans have been challenged and have risen to the exercise of their responsibilities as citizens to participate in the great debates of these days.

Grant wisdom, knowledge, and understanding to us all, as well as an extra measure of charity.

Send Your spirit upon the Members of this people's House who walk through this valley under public scrutiny. Give them peace and Solomonic prudence in their deliberations.

And may all that is done this day be for Your greater honor and glory.

Amen.

wthrfrk80 says

So you admit the possibility of "evil" without religion? And the possibility that religion might not be inherently evil, but is often twisted to justify inherent desires for land, resources, money, and power?

I've stated many times that religion is evil. Therefore, of course, I believe that evil exists. That does not require me to believe in a god or any religion.

And, of course, there are evil things in the world besides religion. That does not mean that religion isn't evil.

And religion is inherently evil as it requires the suspension of critical thinking an unquestioning following of doctrine, which is exactly why it appeals to power-hungry politicians.

wthrfrk80 says

Dan8267 says

I have yet to hear of a single incident in which a community of atheists have threatened or tried to punish a person for being a monotheist.

Maybe not in the USA...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet_Union

We've already had this discussion. Do I have to post more topless pictures of Tom Selleck? Do a history search if you want to relive that discussion.

Dan8267 says

I've stated many times that religion is evil.

Nice that you have an opinion! But that all it is from an athiest.

PersainCAT says

It would be the same concept as if i were to live in the Islamic areas in Michigan and the school had a painting to Allah on the wall.

Geeze, I don't think so. If there was a painting to Allah on the wall, the Muslims would burn down the building. They would find that highly offensive.

I mean, if you don't know anything about Islam, you should at least know that. If you type in "Allah" in Google Image Search, Google replies, "Oh no, I'm not even going to go there.".

omgbacon says

You want to pray, go pray in private.

That's what Jesus said. Yes, he actually said that.

thomas.wong1986 says

Ask yourself why they quoted the bible in Space during the Apollo 8 Moon mission ?

The same reason we have "In God We Trust" printed on our money even though it's a blatant endorsement of monotheism in violation of the First Amendment. Our stupid ass, short-sighted politicians back in the cold war wanted to use religion to make the dumb-as-shit poor masses think that the United States empire was better than the Soviet Union empire. That way, we, not the Soviets, got to rape and pillage all the natural resources of weaker nations.

Religion: It's useful to the state.

PersainCAT says

Edit** Dan based on the context of what i seen you post it seems like you would think that something like this painting would GOOD to have up on places like school, and universities to teach the dangers of religion as an affront to logical thinking and science and use them as example of the the past stupidities of man. celebrating the culture of the past doesn't mean you are promoting that ideology.

I would like to see an impenetrable wall between church and state. And if that's not possible, then church has to be eliminated by the complete rejection of religion by the masses. No matter how you polish the turd, the story in this posting shows what religion drives people to: hatred, violence, and discord.

However, I do not think the state should get involved in the discussion of religion. Individual citizens should debate the issue with no interference from the state. In fact, the state should not enforce any cultural norms as doing so is a violation of the individual's liberty.

Luckily, religion will eventually disappear from the mainstream. Someday, any person who believes in a god will be viewed as cooky as a person who believes in astrology or card reading.

I know this because statistically as individuals become more educated and scientifically literate, they abandon mysticism. Sure, Isaac Newton believed in astrology and the occult, but he lived in a primitive, illiterate culture and that was the norm. If he were alive today, he would not.

With the Internet delivering practically all of mankind's knowledge to every corner of the Earth, eventually society will change so that politicians can no longer use religion to make war, suppress people, and commit acts of evil.

I do my best to hasten that day because there is a chance that if the world doesn't change quick enough, we'll blow ourselves up or render the planet inhospitable. The good news is that we're getting more enlightened. The bad news is that we're running out of time to get our shit together.

Dan8267 says

That way, we, not the Soviets, got to rape and pillage all the natural resources of weaker nations.

Tell that to a East German, Pole, Romanian, Bulgarian or a Czech.

PersainCAT says

my question is why is a painting on a wall that was done 40 years ago something so offensive if the concepts arent actively taught or people are forced to pray.

Image the painting is porn, but its concepts aren't actively taught and people are forced to have sex. Do you still have to ask why some people would find it offensive despite it's age?

PersainCAT says

How does that mural from a by gone time actively offend an atheist.

I don't find it offensive as an atheist. I find it offensive as an American. I have no problem with religious images and ceremonies in churches or even private industry. However, I object to the public school system being subverted by any religion as it violates my freedom of religion which includes freedom from religion. I object to a single cent of tax payer money being spent promoting any religion or for that matter promoting the end of religion.

Even when I was Catholic and went to a Catholic school, I objected to public schools endorsing religious beliefs. Now I'm an atheist, but as an American, I would still object to a public school endorsing atheism (and no, that doesn't include teaching real science) even though I agree with it. I don't get why this is a hard concept to appreciate.

PersainCAT says

so isnt the mural just a homage to the olden days instead of actively forcing religion on people.

That's not it's intent. And intent matters.

Ask yourself one very important question. Does a government that allows TONS of pornography. Really violate your freedom of religion? Even Peco's Bill liked to screw. Its the one fucking thing we hold OH so dear in this culture. Even Pat Robertson is subject to erosion. He may not want it. He may struggle, sweatin', babblin' to Jesus. But one thing Pat sure as fuck knows. Its nice to know its there. Pat will pretend not to know what Megaupload is. But one sure thing Pat heres tell of it was sure GD fast.

thomas.wong1986 says

Ask yourself why they quoted the bible in Space during the Apollo 8 Moon mission ?

Because they were brought up religious? God didn't build their space ship. Attributing their success to god and their faith in god is disregarding the actual hard work people did and the risks they took to perform such an extraordinary task.

Know who's never been to the moon? The pope. If faith was all it took the Vatican would have an embassy up there.

thomas.wong1986 says

Thats not a fact, its only your opinion.. anyone can pray any place at any time, and the Govt cannot prohibit such actions.
Congress in public, starts its sessions with a prayer...

Below is Todays prayer as Congress met to start the day...

no, it is a fact. the prayer they use to start the day is non-demoninational and equal access is given to all religions. it's not exclusively christian. if it was, it would be illegal.

omgbacon says

thomas.wong1986 says

Ask yourself why they quoted the bible in Space during the Apollo 8 Moon mission ?

Because they were brought up religious? God didn't build their space ship. Attributing their success to god and their faith in god is disregarding the actual hard work people did and the risks they took to perform such an extraordinary task.

I bet there were a lot of atheists involved in the Apollo missions, scientists and engineers, who kept their mouths shut out of fear of being fired if it got out they were atheists.

Yes, that is a conjecture, but it's a pretty damn reasonable one.

thomas.wong1986 says

Therefore wearing a Lynyrd Skynyrd T-Shirt is treason...

Do you know of anyone calling any member of LS a biggot or racist, either in the 70s up to today

sedition is any act that lends itself toward insurrection toward the establish political order.

raising the rebel flag and celebrating those who acts to overthrow the legitimate government and clearly stating their intent to do it again is sedition.

we've prosecuted muslims for less than that when it comes to "providing material support" to terrorists.

omgbacon says

no, it is a fact. the prayer they use to start the day is non-demoninational and equal access is given to all religions. it's not exclusively christian. if it was, it would be illegal.

I would argue that it is wrong to use an extremely expensive tax payer project as a theological platform at all. I pay NASA tax dollars to do science, not religion. And if the astronaut had said something like "Gagarin was right; there is no god up here.", you can bet your ass that all the Christians in America would be up in arms even if an astronaut said it as a personal observation and not as an official statement of the government.

Dan8267 says

I would argue that it is wrong to use an extremely expensive tax payer project as a theological platform at all. I pay NASA tax dollars to do science, not religion. And if the astronaut had said something like "Gagarin was right; there is no god up here.", you can bet your ass that all the Christians in America would be up in arms even if an astronaut said it as a personal observation and not as an official statement of the government.

I agree with that. I also think that congress should be able to operate just fine without starting the day with an overt religious prayer.

congress would do well to recognize that the highest recognized authority in the US is man, not god, and that laws of man come from man, not god.

which means they should concentrate on doing their job to the best of their ability. god's not going to save you.

Dan8267 says

That's what Jesus said. Yes, he actually said that.

How could you possibly know that? I thought the Gospels were forgeries created Emperor Constantine.

Most people prefer the earth. Anything else is boring. It's a nice place to live. Perfect for sustaining people. Star Trek is boring. Id rather go to a lecture on mating habits of a Robin. Don't gaze at the stars. You'll only strain your neck. Unless your in the desert of course. Other than that. No one for the most part really looks up or cares.

omgbacon says

the highest recognized authority in the US is man, not god, and that laws of man come from man, not god

Scary, isn't it? Especially when 0.1% of our population is in control of the US government.

Dan8267 says

No matter how you polish the turd, the story in this posting shows what religion drives people to: hatred, violence, and discord

Or, it shows how when you attack the culture of a community, things get ugly. That's human nature. Not a good thing necessarily, but it's real psychology.

wthrfrk80 says

How could you possibly know that? I thought the Gospels were forgeries created Emperor Constantine

It took way, way more than Constantine to put that little religious show together. Now that took a lot of work. Years of putting it together. Before rolling it out I'm sure. The key is the Hebrew religion of course. The derivation of. The collaboration. Trades and exchanges made. The Muslim religion similar rollout. Very much a derivation of. Hey the Christian thingy worked. Some collaboration. One of the keys once again you can pacify or insite accross a nations borders. In fact a whole country can be taken out by a religion. To members of the religion selected or persuaded other people seduced by the said religions. THIS is where some of the religious persecution arrived. Meaning the actually spreading of that religion. I'd say from what I know 700AD the start of Christianity and 1012 AD for the Muslim religion.

Scewed up pathetic atheists.. LOL!

http://www.youtube.com/embed/GcsROMfxNyY&feature=related

omgbacon says

the prayer they use to start the day is non-demoninational and equal access is given to all religions. it's not exclusively christian. if it was, it would be illegal.

It sure isnt Budist, Shinto or Islam. Deal with it!

wthrfrk80 says

Dan8267 says

That's what Jesus said. Yes, he actually said that.

How could you possibly know that? I thought the Gospels were forgeries created Emperor Constantine.

To clarify, the character Jesus in the Bible said that.

All characters appearing in this work are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.

wthrfrk80 says

Dan8267 says

No matter how you polish the turd, the story in this posting shows what religion drives people to: hatred, violence, and discord

Or, it shows how when you attack the culture of a community, things get ugly. That's human nature. Not a good thing necessarily, but it's real psychology.

If standing up for Constitutional rights means attacking a culture, then so be it. Whether we're talking about religious rights or the civil rights movement of the 1960s, some cultures need to change.

It was a culture that inter-racial marriages were taboo, but the right for two consenting adults to marry challenged that taboo and the underlying culture and won. The same thing will happen with gay marriage and the separation of church and state. And rightfully so.

Dan8267 says

If standing up for Constitutional rights means attacking a culture, then so be it. Whether we're talking about religious rights or the civil rights movement of the 1960s, some cultures need to change.

So you're going on the record as saying it's ok to attack a culture? That's a very authoritarian statement.

Bush thought the culture of Afghanistan needed to change. So he attacked it. Do you agree with that?

I can't quite figure you out, Dan.

On one hand you seem to be very libertarian: porn is ok, marijuana should be legal, etc. Fine.

But on the other hand, you seem to be very authoritarian: some cultures must be attacked because they NEED to change (because you say so). Religion must be eliminated...because you say so (even though people like religion almost as much as they like porn, and religion has existed since the stone age...just like porn).

wthrfrk80 says

So you're going on the record as saying it's ok to attack a culture? That's a very authoritarian statement.

So be it. In Saudi Arabia women are stoned to death in honor killings because of the culture. I'll gladly go on record as saying that culture and others are bad and should end. Culture is not an inherently good thing and some cultures sure as hell are better than others.

I'm not going to pussy out and pretend that all cultures are equal. Cultures that subjugate, enslave, torture, or brutalize people are inferior to cultures that do not. Fuck political correctness when people's lives are on the line.

wthrfrk80 says

Bush thought the culture of Afghanistan needed to change. So he attacked it. Do you agree with that?

Bush thought god was talking to him and telling him to kill Muslims for the glory of Christianity. Fuck Bush. Read any of my posts about him if you want to know my opinion.

However, this is a Straw Man argument. The so-called war on terror is really a war on human and civil rights and an attempt to take over the natural resources of other countries. Of course, I don't think it's right.

That doesn't mean we should try to stop rape, torture, and genocide in other countries because it would interfere with their cultures. There are legitimate reasons to go to war, as expressed in international law.

The international legal rules governing the use of force take as their starting point Article 2(4) of the U.N. Charter, which prohibits any nation from using force against another. The charter allows for only two exceptions to this rule: when force is required in self-defense (Article 51) or when the Security Council authorizes the use of force to protect international peace and security (Chapter VII).

http://worldpress.org/specials/iraq/

However, one does not have to use war or military force to "attack" a culture. You can change -- my word -- a culture in many ways.

America's culture has changed a lot for the better -- an in some ways for the worse -- over the past two hundred years. Europe completely changed its culture during the Renaissance and Age of Enlightenment. The American south was forced to change its culture when the federal government stepped in to prevent lynchings, segregation, and outright racial discrimination. And that was the right thing to do. If the some backwaters county needs to be dragged out from the Dark Ages and into the 21st century kicking and screaming, so be it. Better then letting these injustices fetter.

wthrfrk80 says

I can't quite figure you out, Dan.

On one hand you seem to be very libertarian: porn is ok, marijuana should be legal, etc. Fine.

But on the other hand, you seem to be very authoritarian: some cultures must be attacked because they NEED to change (because you say so).

It's not hard to figure me out. I'm quite consistent in my political philosophies.

First of all, realize that the messenger is not important. The fact that I am making this arguments instead of someone else is completely irrelevant. All that matters is the argument itself, not where it comes from. Or to put it another way,

http://www.youtube.com/embed/29pPZQ77cmI
The concept is valid no matter it originates.

Of course, one can go too far,
http://www.youtube.com/embed/g_47mmt5SZY

As for my position, I have given ample evidence across multiple threads of the severe death, destruction, and injustices caused by religions across the millennia. I have also shown that technology has advanced to the point where such irrationality could lead to the extinction of our species through nuclear war or ecological collapse. These are more than sufficient threats to warrant the abandonment of Bronze Aged myths and to embrace more rational philosophies.

Furthermore, I have been quite consistent in upholding the principle that individuals should be allowed to do what they want provided that they are not violating the rights of others including freedom of speech, freedom from religion, and property rights including public property rights such as the right to clean air and clean oceans. If you understand this philosophy, you'll see that I am quite consistent in my arguments.

I often feel like Doolittle talking to the bomb on this site.

Dan8267 says

As for my position, I have given ample evidence across multiple threads of the severe death, destruction, and injustices caused by religions across the millennia

Yes, and he's also taken a serious look at the positive side of religion and spirituality in general. By interviewing many people who are advocates for spiritual pursuits, such as the dali lama, and several of the most famous American authors who look optimistically about the possible future of religion, and those who note the historical contributions of religion to civilization in the past, Dan has been able to do an unbiased analysis of both the negative and the positive side of religion, bringing him to his nuanced position on its place in mankind's future.

OH wait, that wasn't Dan, I'm thinking of someone else. Nevermind.