patrick.net

marcus says

IT might not be clear why this is so relevant, but,... fact:

Academic success in grades k - 12 is very highly correlated to being middle class (or above). And this isn't just because of bad nutrition, single parent households, distractions of gangs and so on in poor neighborhoods. It's a cultural thing. Poor kids typically don't believe in the system and in the opportunity that school presents (maybe in part a reflection of their parents beliefs and fears about the system).

It's not that simple, but giving someone a good opportunity affects more than just his or her prospects. It's going to affect their children too.

Marcus is right in one way. For each race, SAT scores go up the further along a person is on the income ladder. Still, there is a large racial gap. It cannot be overcome by raising a child's living conditions. This experiment has failed.

Scagnetti says

Adding diversity for diversity's sake is not productive. Selecting the best person for the job is.

If you say that again, you obviously missed the entire point of my post.

kentm says

Keep repeating that and being in denial. My answer is NO, your wrong

Thomas, unfortunately you pretty clearly just don't understand the concept, and making an assumption based on your log in name - that your family is heritage is chinese - I find that kind of surprising, unless I suppose you actually are pretty deep denial. Have you looked into the kind of immigration practices that were in place in California not many years ago for people coming in from china? Do a bit of reading on Angel Island. Would you be arguing to keep those policies in place were they still policy?

Assuming thomas.wong.1986 is Asian, the above charts are a good reason for him to be anti-affirmative action. If we were running on a true merit based system, there would be an OVER-representation of Asians. Asians as a whole are HIGHLY competetive. Asians (a minority) are being discriminated against because of this policy!

tatupu70 says

Scagnetti says

Adding diversity for diversity's sake is not productive. Selecting the best person for the job is.

If you say that again, you obviously missed the entire point of my post.

I "got" what you're saying. I think you "get" what I'm saying too. I also think that Orchestra's don't represent the workplace at large. Choosing an artist is personal taste. Choosing the best candidate for the job in many other fields would be much more cut and dry.

Scagnetti says

Choosing the best candidate for the job in many other fields would be much more cut and dry.

Really? It's not possible that a deep down subtle bias exists even in non-racist people that might prompt them to hire a white person over an equally qualified minority? If only because it is more comfortable?

tatupu70 says

Many companies have found that adding diversity has proven to add more efffective people.

I have posted numerous facts on here showing diversity CAUSES problems. If you think companies are better off for it, can make more money, make a better product, with better quality, because of a diversified workforce, prove it.

tatupu70 says

Scagnetti says

Choosing the best candidate for the job in many other fields would be much more cut and dry.

Really? It's not possible that a deep down subtle bias exists even in non-racist people that might prompt them to hire a white person over an equally qualified minority? If only because it is more comfortable?

Inversely, how about all the minorities we have put into managerial positions through affirmative action. Do you think they would be more likely to hire people like themselves? Remember, the sword cuts both ways.

I don't think that orchestra's are the best examples for the overall workforce. I do think that it would be more obvious in a different situation who would be a better candidate. For example, hiring police officers based on test scores.

Scagnetti says

Still, there is a large racial gap. It cannot be overcome by raising a child's living conditions. This experiment has failed.

If you just make shit up, do you really think that makes it true?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are just an idiot, rather than a racist idiot.

The experiment has barely been done, but it has been successful to the extent it has been done. It's not an experiment though really, we are just talking data and facts. Public schools in middle class areas that are significantly hispanic and or african american do WAY better than similar schools in impoverished neighborhoods. Even when money spent is held constant.

Scagnetti says

I have posted numerous facts on here showing diversity CAUSES problems

No, you haven't. Diversity isn't the problem.

Scagnetti says

Inversely, how about all the minorities we have put into managerial positions through affirmative action. Do you think they would be more likely to hire people like themselves? Remember, the sword cuts both ways.

lol--I think we're a long way from that being a problem.

marcus says

Scagnetti says

Still, there is a large racial gap. It cannot be overcome by raising a child's living conditions. This experiment has failed.

If you just make shit up, do you really think that makes it true?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are just an idiot, rather than a racist idiot.

The experiment has barely been done, but it has been successful to the extent it has been done. It's not an experiment though really, we are just talking data and facts. Public schools in middle class areas that are significantly hispanic and or african american do WAY better than similar schools in impoverished neighborhoods. Even when money spent is held constant.

WRONG! I did not make this up. Please see the above charts. I DID say that improving a family's income will raise the child's performance. I also said there is a racial gap, which I provided evidence for. You have provided none. You have already acknowledged an achievement gap. Your argument is that the achievement gap is based totally on the family's income level. The data I provided acknowledges this as a factor but also shows the racial gap. Just because the facts are not pleasant to your eyes doesn't make them untrue.

Scagnetti says

If the goal is to have a strong academic and corporate world, maybe we should be more selective in who we let in the country.

We are very fortunate not to have the population challenges that many countries have (because of our southern neighbors).

I changed my mind, you are a racist idiot.

marcus says

Scagnetti says

If the goal is to have a strong academic and corporate world, maybe we should be more selective in who we let in the country.

We are very fortunate not to have the population challenges that many countries have (because of our southern neighbors).

I changed my mind, you are a racist idiot.

Like I said before, you can't invalidate an argument by name calling. If your argument will stand on its own, there's no need for that. Simply prove me wrong.

On another note, you call me a racist because I think we should accept highly effective, educated, and motivated people into the country? Or is it because I posted some data about SAT scores that undermined your argument? Don't be mad at me! That's just what the data shows.

Maybe by racist you think I'm pro asian because of the above chart I posted!

Your accusations toward me are a classic example of trying to silence debate. We should be ENCOURAGING debate on these type of topics, not stifling it. We can never move forward if we don't challenge some of the assumptions we have that may be wrong! Also, I wont be knocked off course for fear of you or anyone else "calling me names".

It is scientifically proven that the Irish perform lower on standardized tests than whites. Study after study has confirmed the circumference of the Irish skull is smaller than English heads.

We must ban any further Irish from entering the country. The sheer number of Irish have pushed this nation into decline, and the Irish make terrible underclass minions for men of stature and merit.

I had a good friend in college that was Asian. He found it comical when he would walk into an advanced math course on the first day: many would glare at him apparently thinking, "aw crap, there goes the curve!"

He told me there's good reason for that stereotype, though. He said it's probably NOT true that Asians (as a whole) are inherently better at math than the rest. It's that ONLY the smart Asians make it into the U.S. to study math. He put it bluntly, "all the dumb Asians are still back in Asia."

So if you only sample the Asians at U.S. universities, you probably WILL find that they are better at math than the average American. It's not just a stereotype!

It's a well known fact that Orientals are good at one thing and one thing only, and it is certainly not mathematics.

This should be evidenced in my nicely cleaned suit.

And whites are still more marginalized than any other group in America.

I'm surprised this thread is this long. Every day is white boy day. You want your own exclusive club? It's called every day life.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/TG4f9zR5yzY

Kevin says

I hate white men.

There we go, so it comes out.

Why didn't you just say so in the first place, that way we wouldn't think you're just being an Asshole.

Sometimes, I use my truck to shoot my gun,
then other times when I'm depressed I call the lawn service so I can watch Minorities work. One time I paid my bills with a skin sample.

Scagnetti says

Like I said before, you can't invalidate an argument by name calling. If your argument will stand on its own, there's no need for that. Simply prove me wrong.

On another note, you call me a racist because I think we should accept highly effective, educated, and motivated people into the country?

You're right about the name calling being unnecessary, and I doubt that you are as racist as you sounded, but I would stand by my pov that these statements sound racist.

Scagnetti says

If the goal is to have a strong academic and corporate world, maybe we should be more selective in who we let in the country.

Scagnetti says

Still, there is a large racial gap. It cannot be overcome by raising a child's living conditions. This experiment has failed.

I don't care to try to prove to you that this latter assertion is bs. I don't know what experiment you are referring to, but I know for a fact that living conditions and middle class culture as a whole have a HUGE and obvious impact on children's beliefs about their future and their academic potential. This is clearly related to whether the parents are engaged in a decent work situation.

I'm not arguing that therefore people don't have to earn good jobs. Just arguing that what you said is wrong, and that equal opportunities and pushing things towards disenfranchised people having better job opportunities has a HUGE impact, much of which is indirect and hard to measure.

Scagnetti says

For each race, SAT scores go up the further along a person is on the income ladder. Still, there is a large racial gap.

What do you think this is more attributable to, culture (which is affected in the longer term by the average relative income of the entire group) or genes ?

I say it's primarily culture, although this is complicated, because if one culture bases mating decisions more on academic success and future job prospects than another culture, then in the short term genes become a factor.

But this type of difference can be overcome in just a few generations, or less and is not some sort of deep genetic difference as many racists seem to feel.

And by the way, I do believe that even though welfare has been necessary to some degree, the extent to which we have a long term welfare dependent poor culture in this country is a bad thing.

The right wing isn't completely off with their point of view on some of these matters, but they are overly dependent on the selfish needs of their overlords.

And the overlords (corporate and plutocrats) are not willing to do the really valuable investment in our long term future. Everything is about maximizing short terms gains and rents.

marcus says

But this type of difference can be overcome in just a few generations, or less and is not some sort of deep genetic difference as many racists seem to feel.

Make me a believer! Show me some data. Prove it.

Nomo - this isn't about me. Its not about whether or not I'm successful. Its not about whether or not I went to college. Its not about whether or not I bump out dents.

Actually I do bump out dents. In my spare time I like to restore American muscle cars. I taught myself how to do body work, rust repair and auto painting. Its quite rewarding and emotionally satisfying. I recently finished wet-sanding and buffing out a red 1972 Dodge Dart. I am in the process of doing body work and paint on a white 1960 Buick convertable, and body work and paint on a Plum Crazy 1968 Dodge Dart.

Unlike the liberals on Patrick.net - I judge people based on their character, not on the color of their skin. You people see color first...in order to give them preferential treatment.

I, on the other hand, am color blind.

You whiney white boys really need to look up the definition of marginalization.

This thread continues to be fucking moronic.

Honest Abe says

I, on the other hand, am color blind.

Oh, that sucks, how do you watch 3D?

Kevin says

You whiney white boys really need to look up the definition of marginalization.

This thread continues to be fucking moronic.

I like to catch Catfish with my hands, but you like to watch.

Nomograph says

Now you pound out dents for a living and you're looking for somewhere to place the blame.

Fender mending is goddamn good money. Head liner replacement, also.

Nomograph says

You only feel marginalized because you haven't been able to achieve success and are looking for someone to blame other than yourself. It's YOUR fault that you didn't go to college. Now you pound out dents for a living and you're looking for somewhere to place the blame. Try a mirror.

LOL! as the youtube video shows, you have people (white and hispanic) who have achieved success, but were denied their annual promotion because it would cause an "imbalance in racial diversity".

Not exactly the idea to encourage any success unless its dictated by the court. How would that motivate anyone, might as well go pound out dents ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IDoqE5ioYHA

There is only one solution to the historic discrimination of the white man by the United States government. We need to intern the Coloreds in separate but equal camps with a policy of apartness. It's what is best for them.

Scagnetti says

Make me a believer! Show me some data. Prove it.

I am speaking from experience and what seems obvious to me.

Question: Why should I have to prove it ?

Why would your default belief NOT be that those differences are due to socioeconomic reasons rather than race? And why would you not require proof to believe otherwise ?

These are good questions if you can comprehend them.

Jeremy says

Straight white males between the ages of 18 and 54. As far as I can tell, this is the only group of Americans that can not form a group to promote themselves or their own advancement within American society. Am I wrong?

Well, isn't Congress, the CEO of nearly every corporation, every university, all the military services, major leadership positions in every private sector category, centuries of clubs like Lions, Elks etc, country clubs, golf clubs, car clubs, motorcycle clubs,movies, TV primarily representing white straight males enough?

Are you just saying you want to be able to have exclusively race based clubs?

Come join me for a round at the golf club some time and I'll show you how marginalized we are. We're doing pretty stupid good, man. I agree with the Louis C.K. ideas and that's been consistent with my thoughts on the marginalization of white men for a long time.

It's probably a sign of advancement that this gets discussed as hard as this discussion is to understand. What little I understand about evolution says diversity benefits humans so it's helpful to promote diversity. Or if you believe in creation, then you must see that God promotes diversity.

FunTime says

Well, isn't Congress, the CEO of nearly every corporation, every university, all the military services, major leadership positions in every private sector category, centuries of clubs like Lions, Elks etc, country clubs, golf clubs, car clubs, motorcycle clubs,movies, TV primarily representing white straight males enough?

Not this argument again, I'm the only White guy I know.

Nomo, I restore cars as a hobby...though working with ones hands is nothing to be ashamed of, which you insinuate.

Again, this thread is not about me, my success, my college degrees, or my critical skills in thinking. I don't need to justify myself to you or anyone else. You don't know me, as such you cannot accurately jusge me. Otherwise you are PREJUDICED (as well as being a racist).

For all you know I could be wealthy, or not. I could be a minority, or not. I could be married to a person of color, or not. I could have advanced college degrees, or not. I could hold lifetime teaching credentials in multiple states, or not. I could own multiple office buildings, or not. I could be CEO of multiple corperations, or not. I could have improved the lives of countless people, or not.

I also recognize the fact that whites are marginalized - you don't. I recognize there is a divisive double standard in existance - you don't. I recognize that a sound currency is necessary for a sound economy - you don't. I recognize inflation steals from the poor - you don't. I recognize that throwing money at every problem in life is not the solution - you don't. I recognize that the more government grows, the more liberty and freedom decline - you don't. I recognize that the rule of law is superior to the whims of man - you don't. I recognize the futility of central planning - you don't. I recognize the sanctity of life - you don't. I recognize that cooperation is superior to force - you don't. I recognize that price fixing distorts the market - you don't. I recognize the destruction of unintended consequences - you don't. I recognize the fact that utiopia doesn't exist - you don't. I recognize my range of critical thinking skills is vastly superior to yours - which is apparently too hard for you to comprehend.

Score as of today: Abe-117 Nomo- 0

FunTime - God doesn't PROMOTE diversity, she CREATED diversity. Big difference.

Honest Abe says

I also recognize the fact that whites are marginalized - you don't.

By "recognize" you mean "have paranoid delusions about".

marginalized: past participle, past tense of mar·gin·al·ize
Verb:
Treat (a person, group, or concept) as insignificant or peripheral: "they marginalize those who disagree"; "marginalized groups".

Man, white people are just so insignificant and peripheral. They have no say in government, business, education, religion, or any other aspect of people's lives. It's so sad what they've done to white people.

Kevin, "Crackers" are not allowed to form groups to promote their own advancement (which was the main point of the original post).

Its not that whitie isn't involved with government, business, education, religion. It's just not acceptable to liberals or other racist groups for whites to form groups LIKE THEY HAVE, to "promote or advance" their own agenda.

You know, NAACP, CORE, Anti-Defamation League, National Black Caucasus, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms. Heck, you even have a racist president calling on black churches for additional black votes. Imagine the firestorm of protest and outrage if Mitt Rommney called on "White churches to encourage white votes".

You deny it (as usual) but having groups like National Association for the Advancement of White People, National White Caucasians, WDPT (whites demanding preferential treatment) would cause riots in America. All the major cities would be in flames. The battle cry would be "Burn Baby Burn"...have you ever heard that before????

Thanks for posting the definition - you validated the premise of the original post.

Hope you overcome your hate and distorted thinking soon. All the best, Abe

Kevin says

Man, white people are just so insignificant and peripheral. They have no say in government, business, education, religion, or any other aspect of people's lives. It's so sad what they've done to white people.

Kevin that's the point, and where you Liberals fall flat on your asses. That is the whole fucking point of democracy and especially the United states. Nobody has any say in business, religion or any aspect of people's lives. It's the liberals that want to crawl up everyone's butt and drive the direction of everything they do.