patrick.net

marcus says

Scagnetti says

If the goal is to have a strong academic and corporate world, maybe we should be more selective in who we let in the country.

We are very fortunate not to have the population challenges that many countries have (because of our southern neighbors).

I changed my mind, you are a racist idiot.

Like I said before, you can't invalidate an argument by name calling. If your argument will stand on its own, there's no need for that. Simply prove me wrong.

On another note, you call me a racist because I think we should accept highly effective, educated, and motivated people into the country? Or is it because I posted some data about SAT scores that undermined your argument? Don't be mad at me! That's just what the data shows.

Maybe by racist you think I'm pro asian because of the above chart I posted!

Your accusations toward me are a classic example of trying to silence debate. We should be ENCOURAGING debate on these type of topics, not stifling it. We can never move forward if we don't challenge some of the assumptions we have that may be wrong! Also, I wont be knocked off course for fear of you or anyone else "calling me names".

It is scientifically proven that the Irish perform lower on standardized tests than whites. Study after study has confirmed the circumference of the Irish skull is smaller than English heads.

We must ban any further Irish from entering the country. The sheer number of Irish have pushed this nation into decline, and the Irish make terrible underclass minions for men of stature and merit.

I had a good friend in college that was Asian. He found it comical when he would walk into an advanced math course on the first day: many would glare at him apparently thinking, "aw crap, there goes the curve!"

He told me there's good reason for that stereotype, though. He said it's probably NOT true that Asians (as a whole) are inherently better at math than the rest. It's that ONLY the smart Asians make it into the U.S. to study math. He put it bluntly, "all the dumb Asians are still back in Asia."

So if you only sample the Asians at U.S. universities, you probably WILL find that they are better at math than the average American. It's not just a stereotype!

It's a well known fact that Orientals are good at one thing and one thing only, and it is certainly not mathematics.

This should be evidenced in my nicely cleaned suit.

And whites are still more marginalized than any other group in America.

I'm surprised this thread is this long. Every day is white boy day. You want your own exclusive club? It's called every day life.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/TG4f9zR5yzY

Kevin says

I hate white men.

There we go, so it comes out.

Why didn't you just say so in the first place, that way we wouldn't think you're just being an Asshole.

Sometimes, I use my truck to shoot my gun,
then other times when I'm depressed I call the lawn service so I can watch Minorities work. One time I paid my bills with a skin sample.

Scagnetti says

Like I said before, you can't invalidate an argument by name calling. If your argument will stand on its own, there's no need for that. Simply prove me wrong.

On another note, you call me a racist because I think we should accept highly effective, educated, and motivated people into the country?

You're right about the name calling being unnecessary, and I doubt that you are as racist as you sounded, but I would stand by my pov that these statements sound racist.

Scagnetti says

If the goal is to have a strong academic and corporate world, maybe we should be more selective in who we let in the country.

Scagnetti says

Still, there is a large racial gap. It cannot be overcome by raising a child's living conditions. This experiment has failed.

I don't care to try to prove to you that this latter assertion is bs. I don't know what experiment you are referring to, but I know for a fact that living conditions and middle class culture as a whole have a HUGE and obvious impact on children's beliefs about their future and their academic potential. This is clearly related to whether the parents are engaged in a decent work situation.

I'm not arguing that therefore people don't have to earn good jobs. Just arguing that what you said is wrong, and that equal opportunities and pushing things towards disenfranchised people having better job opportunities has a HUGE impact, much of which is indirect and hard to measure.

Scagnetti says

For each race, SAT scores go up the further along a person is on the income ladder. Still, there is a large racial gap.

What do you think this is more attributable to, culture (which is affected in the longer term by the average relative income of the entire group) or genes ?

I say it's primarily culture, although this is complicated, because if one culture bases mating decisions more on academic success and future job prospects than another culture, then in the short term genes become a factor.

But this type of difference can be overcome in just a few generations, or less and is not some sort of deep genetic difference as many racists seem to feel.

And by the way, I do believe that even though welfare has been necessary to some degree, the extent to which we have a long term welfare dependent poor culture in this country is a bad thing.

The right wing isn't completely off with their point of view on some of these matters, but they are overly dependent on the selfish needs of their overlords.

And the overlords (corporate and plutocrats) are not willing to do the really valuable investment in our long term future. Everything is about maximizing short terms gains and rents.

marcus says

But this type of difference can be overcome in just a few generations, or less and is not some sort of deep genetic difference as many racists seem to feel.

Make me a believer! Show me some data. Prove it.

Nomo - this isn't about me. Its not about whether or not I'm successful. Its not about whether or not I went to college. Its not about whether or not I bump out dents.

Actually I do bump out dents. In my spare time I like to restore American muscle cars. I taught myself how to do body work, rust repair and auto painting. Its quite rewarding and emotionally satisfying. I recently finished wet-sanding and buffing out a red 1972 Dodge Dart. I am in the process of doing body work and paint on a white 1960 Buick convertable, and body work and paint on a Plum Crazy 1968 Dodge Dart.

Unlike the liberals on Patrick.net - I judge people based on their character, not on the color of their skin. You people see color first...in order to give them preferential treatment.

I, on the other hand, am color blind.

You whiney white boys really need to look up the definition of marginalization.

This thread continues to be fucking moronic.

Honest Abe says

I, on the other hand, am color blind.

Oh, that sucks, how do you watch 3D?

Kevin says

You whiney white boys really need to look up the definition of marginalization.

This thread continues to be fucking moronic.

I like to catch Catfish with my hands, but you like to watch.

Nomograph says

Now you pound out dents for a living and you're looking for somewhere to place the blame.

Fender mending is goddamn good money. Head liner replacement, also.

Nomograph says

You only feel marginalized because you haven't been able to achieve success and are looking for someone to blame other than yourself. It's YOUR fault that you didn't go to college. Now you pound out dents for a living and you're looking for somewhere to place the blame. Try a mirror.

LOL! as the youtube video shows, you have people (white and hispanic) who have achieved success, but were denied their annual promotion because it would cause an "imbalance in racial diversity".

Not exactly the idea to encourage any success unless its dictated by the court. How would that motivate anyone, might as well go pound out dents ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IDoqE5ioYHA

There is only one solution to the historic discrimination of the white man by the United States government. We need to intern the Coloreds in separate but equal camps with a policy of apartness. It's what is best for them.

Scagnetti says

Make me a believer! Show me some data. Prove it.

I am speaking from experience and what seems obvious to me.

Question: Why should I have to prove it ?

Why would your default belief NOT be that those differences are due to socioeconomic reasons rather than race? And why would you not require proof to believe otherwise ?

These are good questions if you can comprehend them.

Jeremy says

Straight white males between the ages of 18 and 54. As far as I can tell, this is the only group of Americans that can not form a group to promote themselves or their own advancement within American society. Am I wrong?

Well, isn't Congress, the CEO of nearly every corporation, every university, all the military services, major leadership positions in every private sector category, centuries of clubs like Lions, Elks etc, country clubs, golf clubs, car clubs, motorcycle clubs,movies, TV primarily representing white straight males enough?

Are you just saying you want to be able to have exclusively race based clubs?

Come join me for a round at the golf club some time and I'll show you how marginalized we are. We're doing pretty stupid good, man. I agree with the Louis C.K. ideas and that's been consistent with my thoughts on the marginalization of white men for a long time.

It's probably a sign of advancement that this gets discussed as hard as this discussion is to understand. What little I understand about evolution says diversity benefits humans so it's helpful to promote diversity. Or if you believe in creation, then you must see that God promotes diversity.

FunTime says

Well, isn't Congress, the CEO of nearly every corporation, every university, all the military services, major leadership positions in every private sector category, centuries of clubs like Lions, Elks etc, country clubs, golf clubs, car clubs, motorcycle clubs,movies, TV primarily representing white straight males enough?

Not this argument again, I'm the only White guy I know.

Nomo, I restore cars as a hobby...though working with ones hands is nothing to be ashamed of, which you insinuate.

Again, this thread is not about me, my success, my college degrees, or my critical skills in thinking. I don't need to justify myself to you or anyone else. You don't know me, as such you cannot accurately jusge me. Otherwise you are PREJUDICED (as well as being a racist).

For all you know I could be wealthy, or not. I could be a minority, or not. I could be married to a person of color, or not. I could have advanced college degrees, or not. I could hold lifetime teaching credentials in multiple states, or not. I could own multiple office buildings, or not. I could be CEO of multiple corperations, or not. I could have improved the lives of countless people, or not.

I also recognize the fact that whites are marginalized - you don't. I recognize there is a divisive double standard in existance - you don't. I recognize that a sound currency is necessary for a sound economy - you don't. I recognize inflation steals from the poor - you don't. I recognize that throwing money at every problem in life is not the solution - you don't. I recognize that the more government grows, the more liberty and freedom decline - you don't. I recognize that the rule of law is superior to the whims of man - you don't. I recognize the futility of central planning - you don't. I recognize the sanctity of life - you don't. I recognize that cooperation is superior to force - you don't. I recognize that price fixing distorts the market - you don't. I recognize the destruction of unintended consequences - you don't. I recognize the fact that utiopia doesn't exist - you don't. I recognize my range of critical thinking skills is vastly superior to yours - which is apparently too hard for you to comprehend.

Score as of today: Abe-117 Nomo- 0

FunTime - God doesn't PROMOTE diversity, she CREATED diversity. Big difference.

Honest Abe says

I also recognize the fact that whites are marginalized - you don't.

By "recognize" you mean "have paranoid delusions about".

marginalized: past participle, past tense of mar·gin·al·ize
Verb:
Treat (a person, group, or concept) as insignificant or peripheral: "they marginalize those who disagree"; "marginalized groups".

Man, white people are just so insignificant and peripheral. They have no say in government, business, education, religion, or any other aspect of people's lives. It's so sad what they've done to white people.

Kevin, "Crackers" are not allowed to form groups to promote their own advancement (which was the main point of the original post).

Its not that whitie isn't involved with government, business, education, religion. It's just not acceptable to liberals or other racist groups for whites to form groups LIKE THEY HAVE, to "promote or advance" their own agenda.

You know, NAACP, CORE, Anti-Defamation League, National Black Caucasus, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms. Heck, you even have a racist president calling on black churches for additional black votes. Imagine the firestorm of protest and outrage if Mitt Rommney called on "White churches to encourage white votes".

You deny it (as usual) but having groups like National Association for the Advancement of White People, National White Caucasians, WDPT (whites demanding preferential treatment) would cause riots in America. All the major cities would be in flames. The battle cry would be "Burn Baby Burn"...have you ever heard that before????

Thanks for posting the definition - you validated the premise of the original post.

Hope you overcome your hate and distorted thinking soon. All the best, Abe

Kevin says

Man, white people are just so insignificant and peripheral. They have no say in government, business, education, religion, or any other aspect of people's lives. It's so sad what they've done to white people.

Kevin that's the point, and where you Liberals fall flat on your asses. That is the whole fucking point of democracy and especially the United states. Nobody has any say in business, religion or any aspect of people's lives. It's the liberals that want to crawl up everyone's butt and drive the direction of everything they do.

Honest Abe says

FunTime - God doesn't PROMOTE diversity, she CREATED diversity. Big difference.

So God lacked intent?

Honest Abe says

Kevin, "Crackers" are not allowed to form groups to promote their own advancement (which was the main point of the original post).
Its not that whitie isn't involved with government, business, education, religion. It's just not acceptable to liberals or other racist groups for whites to form groups LIKE THEY HAVE, to "promote or advance" their own agenda.

I really think you've got this backwards. Whitie isn't "involved" in the the groups and organizations you listed. Whitie "formed" them. So then people of other ethnic backgrounds came along and said, "Hey, we want groups too! In fact, we really need them because all of the groups that exist explicitly exclude us." So to say whites/caucasians can't form groups to promote their advancement, or further domination in this case, seems to remember only a couple decades back.

And besides that, are there really groups being struck down? I'm aware of groups of all white men that get formed all the time. Is the point that they're not officially defined as being for white's? Some of the groups that have been formed for other kinds of people are actually not exclusive. Many groups formed for women, appreciate the attendance and membership of men, for example.

Scagnetti says

It's not possible....it has been scientifically proven time and again. The American racial experiment has failed.

So far, right? Are you really giving up? It took us a long time to get here. Do you think we'll figure it out in a few decades? The world is not the way we want it, so let's keep trying to change it.

Scagnetti says

Still, there is a large racial gap. It cannot be overcome by raising a child's living conditions. This experiment has failed.

I would find it helpful if you'd post the source study for your charts. Also, what do you think about the discussions/debate regarding the bias of tests?

marcus says

These are good questions if you can comprehend them.

Here is a general response to your many comments...

Judging from your previous posts, you are obviously an apologist, if not a blatant supporter, of affirmative action. Affirmative action is racist, sexist, and anti-merit. Your justification for it is immaterial to this fact. Even though this policy is all of those things, I never called you racist, sexist, anti-white, or anti-merit, although you continue to label and vilify me. Once again, make your argument, not personal attacks.

You assert the importance of having a diverse society and that we are making "great strides". I pointed out to you that this diverse society you are creating is not merit based, but based on state sponsored prejudice. I will repeat, your justification for it is immaterial to this fact.

I proved it by posting information showing that whites and asians on average had much higher SAT scores. The most competent and qualified college applicants were being rejected in favor of black and hispanic applicants with lower test scores! I had previously posted information about the anti-white and anti-asian admission standards at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. After the posting of the SAT scores showing a difference between the races, you had an EMOTIONAL MELTDOWN!

Next, you took segments of my posts out of context, and argued that "middle-class life" makes a large difference in scoring. I had already acknowledged this as a FACTOR. I am the one who posted the information that showed this remember? Here is the whole of my post that you cut, took out of context, and went on a childlike rant about...

Scagnetti says

Marcus is right in one way. For each race, SAT scores go up the further along a person is on the income ladder. Still, there is a large racial gap. It cannot be overcome by raising a child's living conditions. This experiment has failed.

You then claim to be ignorant of the "experiment" I referred too. After your "cooling off" period, you realized I was talking about whether people are a product of their environment, genetics, or both. After that, you take the contemporary and politically correct view of; all people are exactly the same and only environmental/social factors matter. You pre-emptively state that anyone who has a different view is a racist.

In regards to different groups having different SAT scores you say....

marcus says

But this type of difference can be overcome in just a few generations, or less and is not some sort of deep genetic difference as many racists seem to feel.

I asked you to prove this with some data and you COULDN'T OR WOULDN'T. You have provided no proof for your claim! Maybe it's because, IT HAS NEVER BEEN OVERCOME!

Think about this...

Did you know that the VAST majority of world class sprinters are from African descent? Why is that? Are you going to argue that whites can overcome this deficiency within a few generations with proper training, equal opportunity, and a different culture? Or do you think blacks' dominance in sprinting is just raw innate talent?

The NFL is mostly black and so is the NBA and no one utters a word. Blacks' dominance in these sports is realized. The second you post some SAT scores that show Whites and Asians come out on top, LOOK OUT, Marcus and the bunch that think like him will demonize you. Does anyone see a double standard here? That its ok to be pro-black, pro-hispanic, pro-anything, EXCEPT pro-white?

"There are very few moments in a mans existence when he experiences so much hostility, or meets with so little benevolence, as when he challenges fashionable perceptions of race."

Scagnetti says

No one even bats an eye at this stuff anymore. The NFL is mostly black and so is the NBA and no one utters a word. Their dominance in these sports is accepted. The second you post some SAT scores that show Whites and Asians come out on top, LOOK OUT, Marcus and the bunch that think like him will demonize you. Does anyone see a double standard here?

I don't think you've illustrated a double standard. Your writing suggests that for every occupation in the world, there is equal consideration of every person. Then the best people end up in that position, or the people with the most potential for that position. That's not how it works.

FunTime says

Scagnetti says

No one even bats an eye at this stuff anymore. The NFL is mostly black and so is the NBA and no one utters a word. Their dominance in these sports is accepted. The second you post some SAT scores that show Whites and Asians come out on top, LOOK OUT, Marcus and the bunch that think like him will demonize you. Does anyone see a double standard here?

I don't think you've illustrated a double standard. Your writing suggests that for every occupation in the world, there is equal consideration of every person. Then the best people end up in that position, or the people with the most potential for that position. That's not how it works.

Really? I thought it was pretty apparent. No one is ostracized for saying that blacks are dominant in lots of athletics. Its true. On the other hand, when you prove whites and asians are dominant scholastically and intellectually, you are called a racist and vilified. See the above vitriol. You don't see the double standard there? That its ok to be pro-black, pro-hispanic, pro-anything, EXCEPT pro-white? Really?

Scagnetti, I clearly see the double standard you described, don't know why FT can't. BTW, I've heard that the best way to get accepted into college is to identify yourself as "American Indian". That puts you ahead of Blacks, Hispanics or any other 'Government favored' group.

Hahaha, the double standard so loved and charished by liberals is being defeated and trumped by a new triple standard, hahaha. Libs beaten at their own game - SWEET !!!

FunTime says

Your writing suggests that for every occupation in the world, there is equal consideration of every person. Then the best people end up in that position, or the people with the most potential for that position. That's not how it works.

Yes, I know that's not how it works! That's the problem, highly competent and qualified whites are being passed over for lesser competent and lesser qualified minorities!

Now you're just starting to sound like a silly fool.

Reconcile this statement with the study I posted above that proved how competent individuals were passed over because of the internalized biases of those judging them in favor of more visually acceptable but less competent individuals. I double dog dare you to acknowledge and accept the findings of that study, WITHOUT twisting it's meaning to support your position, which is exactly the opposite.

So the point of your posts is basically "the poor, poor white men", have I got that right? So downtrodden are we, so repressed and maligned and pushed from any power and success that's possibly ours, by those dastardly, undeserving and yet somehow wildly successful minorities. Is that the essence of your thought process here?

Is life still horrible for white men today? The mexican lady who I pay to clean my toilet didn't seem interested in having the discussion.

This is a call to all my White brothers and sisters! It's time to break the chains of oppression and make our way to the land of freedom! I have a dream that one day, all of my persecuted White brothers and sisters will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old spiritual;

Free at last! Free at last!

Thank GOD Almighty, we are free at last!

You go, girl.

Scagnetti says

After the posting of the SAT scores showing a difference between the races, you had an EMOTIONAL MELTDOWN!

If calmly observing that you are a racist idiot is what you call an emotional meltdown then okay.

I never said this:

Scagnetti says

After that, you take the contemporary and politically correct view of; all people are exactly the same and only environmental/social factors matter.

No, but I did say that I think average children's test score differences by race are about socioeconomic factors, rather than race. But hey, I'm just a teacher, what would I know.

I meant it when I said I don't know what experiment you were referring to.I would try to help you get over the obvious emotions you have about these issues, if I thought I could. But that's obviously a lost cause.

This was my best attempt:

marcus says

Why would your default belief NOT be that those differences are due to socioeconomic reasons rather than race? And why would you not require proof to believe otherwise ?

And by the way, before our brief exchange, I did say this.

marcus says

Don't we all at least partially understand the complexity of this? And probably many of us, myself included, have some ambivalence about it when it comes to for example med school or law school admissions.

We really are tribal animals, as said in one of the other threads. Maybe that's why we obsess over skin pigmentation? It's a psychological "us vs. them"?