patrick.net

CL says

To summarize the seemingly consensus view here:

1) We (regardless of ethnicity) are right to fear blacks if they are walking towards us in a dark alley, since they are much more likely to murder us than a Caucasian

2) Yet when a black person applies for a job, the same fear does not prevent their being hired.

They just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, and those who care should never try to help by affording them jobs, education or opportunities beyond what the society offers the white community by default.

White people deserve the benefit of the doubt, whereas a black or Latino deserves the doubt.

Is that about right?

You just sound like a person who blames others for personal failures.

Our government for a while made it easy to just claim to be a victim of society and you got paid, got tangible benefits, and quickly many folks jumped onto the train.

I guess seeing folks with a mindset like yours, victim mentality, I don't see that changing any time soon.

FortWayne says

You just sound like a person who blames others for personal failures.

Where would you get that? I clearly am indicting the society, of which I am a part, for SYSTEMIC problems that treat blacks differently than whites.

Yet, it is hardly a personal issue when demographically an entire ethnicity not only fares worse by any metric, but is treated as though it is their own fault.

It's really you who are blaming the victim here.

On what grounds would you posit that they are not victimized by our society?

Unequal healthcare, unequal education and unequal treatment under the law.

Unless, as is implied, there is a genetic component to "black struggle"? But even the detractors here don't believe that, except for Foxman.

So, you are assigning personal failure to an entire class of people, right?

FortWayne says

You just sound like a person who blames others for personal failures.

Our government for a while made it easy to just claim to be a victim of society and you got paid, got tangible benefits, and quickly many folks jumped onto the train.

I guess seeing folks with a mindset like yours, victim mentality, I don't see that changing any time soon.

What? I see nothing in the above that is laying blame for a personal failing.

A disadvantaged child, growing up in a drug addicted home, and in poverty has the same chance in america as a child growing up in a wealthy household in Cupertino? Is this your claim?

Affirmative Action works by you claiming you are a victim? Is that how it goes? I challenge you to walk up to 100 people of your choice and ask them if they see themselves as a victim. If the answer yes, ask them what of? Ridiculous. Very few people label themselves as victims.

Affirmative action is a very imperfect way of trying to correct damage done to minorities and women in America's history. There is lots not to like about it, and there are some things which ARE actually needed/good.

The manner in which this can be done without detracting from someone's rightful achievement, or taking away from someone who has earned something, is troubling ... but I don't see a better solution.

What's your solution? Sounds to me like you think we have enough equality now in America to just let things sort themselves out. Demographics would show you are wrong.

Question: Do you think women in the muslim world would benefit from something like Affirmative Action? (and I am using muslim women here to represent a clearly discriminated against social group ... could as easily just be a minority, but this is a great example. Your answer to this question would tell you/me whether it is just Affirmative Action you have a problem with, or its use in America today.)

There will always be some who mooch off of social programs. Does that mean we should have nothing because a few will cheat? I don't like it any more than you do, I really don't, but the slight cost at those who will milk it is far less than the benefit social programs/"entitlements" have.

Again, your argument seems to go straight to : "dog eat dog world, no government needed, load 'em up and keep one in the chamber."

That's in no way shape or form the vision of America, or an America I want to live in. There is a balance here between personal responsibility and us helping those in society who need it.

little true story:

A lovely 20 yr old african american college student came one day to give her resume for a summer job at my old place of work here in “progressive” san francisco.
she was perfect in every sense: accomplished, experienced, execellent grades, well spoken, well dressed etc. etc. the part- owner manager took her info and interviewed her on the spot. after the interview was over and they exchanged final handshakes, she said goodbye and left the building. at which point partner- manager takes her resume and rips it up in front of 6 employees while saying "you think i’m ever gonna give a job to the likes of that black bitch!"

i kid you not!

re: affirmative action.

We actually got it better than many countries.
You can not open a business in Malaysia with out taking on a "Silent" indigenous Malay as a silent partner. They are not even obligated to contribute NOTING to your business. They get 30%, and they didn't even invest in your business. When you are opening a business, you have to pick one from a list, and then cut them a check every month, based on your profits.

There was talk to do away with it, but I don't know what happened.

Also you can't emigrate there unless you have (RM)500K to put down on a house, and 500K to put in the bank.

foxmannumber1 says

FortWayne says

Obama is black.

Obama's family on his mother's side is all white people as far as we can tell.

Obama's family on his father's side is all black people as far as we can tell.

Technically speaking he is just as white as he is black.

not exactly correct. On hos absent dad's side he is a small part negro/ african, and is a much larger portion arab (non-negro). It is a great example of the left looking foolish by calling Obama a "black" American. He aint. He is a light skinned, 1/2 white, partial arab, little bit of black - Hatian - american.

Bap33 says

little bit of black - Hatian - american.

That would explain the over achieving part.

CaptainShuddup says

re: affirmative action.

We actually got it better than many countries.

Yes, we do, but that does not mean that we are without our problems that need solutions.

John Bailo says

Obviously you've never been to the Hemp Festival in Seattle...a 3 day open air celebration of pot smoking (and hemp use). They take over a city park in the heart of downtown and at the last one the Mayor and City Attorney gave speeches!

I said unless it's a Phish concert. (synonymous for Festival)

That being said, this is a phenomena I saw first hand at my first Grateful Dead concert in 1987 at the Miami arena. The hall way, was a big sit in, where heads from all over the world were sitting on the floor with their bags spread out in front of them rolling huge tatters, and passing them to the right. I was thinking OMG there's going to the Riot squad sent out.
The few Police I did notice, had this look on their face like... "Where would we even begin?" People do end up getting arrested, but it's usually because they did some other stupid stuff besides being caught smoking dope. Like donning a Conehead skull cap and jumping on the Green Peace table and doing pirouettes during China Cat sunflower while ignoring the Polices instructions to get down from the table.

In 1989-90 I don't remember which memorial day week end, Bay Front park in Miami, threw a huge free concert. With Foreigner, Alice Cooper, Damn the Torpedoes and a few other major acts. I thought we copped the only blotter doses there when we were offered a few tabs. But by time Foreigner the headliner was playing the whole park was coordinated off with that thick orange safety netting, no one in or no one out.
By then it was evident that 95% of the people there were tripping balls hard. We even saw two police officers who lost their shit, and just couldn't hold it together. Never saw one arrest.

I think its because there safety in numbers. If a large portion of the crowd is partaking, then they tend to just ignore it. How ever that's not to say if you're walking down the street on the way to the event even with just four of five of you, that you wont get popped. But the inside the events, I've never figured out if the promoters pay extra to not call out the patty wagons, or if it's just the unwritten code of Festivals.

These days, the last time I went to a head show, people seemed more low keyed. Nothing seemed to be happening out in the open like it had been in the past.

But I would say that if Cops bust black folk during the Hip Hop week end, when they are a large crowd partying on South Beach, then there must be some bias going on there.

Rew says

Affirmative action is a very imperfect way of trying to correct damage done to
minorities and women in America's history. There is lots not to like about it,
and there are some things which ARE actually needed/good.

I think one can argue that Affirmative Action and other well meaning welfare programs trying to help certain groups of people can actually perpetuate some of problems they are trying help out.

For instance, our government have massively increased welfare aid to help single mothers and has reduced the stigma of out of wedlock births. Now over 70% of African American children are born to single mothers and GUARANTEED POVERTY.

No matter how much financial assistance the State provides, raising children to single parents is an almost guarantee of poverty, lack of education and crime. We see this cycle perpetuating in the black community and it is tragic.

I am not suggesting we don't have a safety net for the poor. But we need to also work on fixing the culture and encourage our families and communities to take responsibility to look after each other instead of the Feds.

Instead, we have Obama and the Democrats running goofy cartoon campaign ads about the "Life of Juila" showing how the government will help provide for Julia her entire life.

John Bailo says

(I'm pro police and think they should protect themselves as the girl was being belligerent. But I'm just saying...about the differences in treatment.)

I always wonder if the rightwing gun advocates who fear the government have these guys in mind too?

Do they picture the BPP as fellow conceal-carry supporters?

Would they feel the same if the BPP came to say, a Romney rally brandishing their legal firearms?

http://www.youtube.com/embed/_DgB3WASwXA

The Romneys were on welfare. We should all be so lucky!

Another way of saying this: The path to hell is paved with good intentions

socal2 says

I think one can argue that Affirmative Action and other well meaning welfare programs trying to help certain groups of people can actually perpetuate some of problems they are trying help out.

Maybe this Indian individual should have been reading this thread

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Raveesh-Kumra-Use-of-Hookers-Lead-to-Homicide-190493151.html

coriacci1 says

little true story:

A lovely 20 yr old african american college student came one day to give her resume for a summer job at my old place of work here in “progressive” san francisco.

she was perfect in every sense: accomplished, experienced, execellent grades, well spoken, well dressed etc. etc. the part- owner manager took her info and interviewed her on the spot. after the interview was over and they exchanged final handshakes, she said goodbye and left the building. at which point partner- manager takes her resume and rips it up in front of 6 employees while saying "you think i’m ever gonna give a job to the likes of that black bitch!"

i kid you not!

And what did you do? If i were there and that happened that person would be paying me hush money the rest of my life.

Moderate Infidel says

And what did you do? If i were there and that happened that person would be paying me hush money the rest of my life.

Something should be done to give minorities a level playing field. :)

Black gangs targeting Indians because they are stacking chips like Frito-Lay. The reason why they get away with it is because they suspect Indians won't fight back.

MMR says

Maybe this Indian individual should have been reading this thread

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Raveesh-Kumra-Use-of-Hookers-Lead-to-Homicide-190493151.html

Let me guess, you are an entrepreneur or capitalist who works for himself? Easy to say if your paycheck doesn't depend on it.

Moderate Infidel says

And what did you do? If i were there and that happened that person would be paying me hush money the rest of my life.

Does gun control do a good job of solving black on black crime? Would more control do the trick?

Top guard dogs. Good for mauling Indian-targeting hood rats(Usually Black or Hispanic in California) that usually carry illegal firearms with the registration numbers wiped off. Any welfare family hood rat who attempts to enter my future California home with intent to rob or harm will escape with only with significant injury and none of my assets

http://listverse.com/2007/11/13/top-10-badass-guard-dogs/

The type of crap people do (usually White) to Asian Americans, they are afraid to do/say to a black person's face because, statistically speaking, and yes, this is politically incorrect, the white guy is usually scared that the Black guy might kick his ass/shoot him.

http://blog.angryasianman.com/2011/10/asian-americans-teens-bullied-more-than.html

Some 62% of Asian American kids faced 1-2x/month bullying compared to 18.1% of whites.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ieIKEf6GvJAwc1iBJZ1itH-HGbyA?docId=CNG.1732b21b28ee34447047f9aa12dd08c5.b31

What's the deal with this black or white crap anyway. Last time I checked Asians made up 30% of San Francisco, San Jose and prob close to 20% of Oakland. But that's right, Asians don't matter because it's a black or white world, not brown or yellow

ET HOME says

Have you been in Cuba????? I am cuban now live in Miami.

the number are just political flags the gov use to say they are ok,

I rely on the CIA World Factbook. In any case, there are other metrics we've applied here, and by any of them blacks are not faring well in America.

As the Professor said, compared to white American counterparts their infant mortality scores distressingly poorly, regardless of whether or not we trust the CIA's sources.

MMR says

What's the deal with this black or white crap anyway. Last time I checked Asians made up 30% of San Francisco, San Jose and prob close to 20% of Oakland. But that's right, Asians don't matter because it's a black or white world, not brown or yellow

Asians don't live drowning themselves in victim mentality, hence they do well in the "land of the free".

FortWayne says

Asians don't live drowning themselves in victim mentality, hence they do well in the "land of the free".

And are overwhelmingly Democratic voters, like all minorities who I guess just don't know that there's no race problem in America, and in the GOP in particular.

That's right, when they are bullied 3.3x more than white kids, they just commit suicide

FortWayne says

Asians don't live drowning themselves in victim mentality, hence they do well in the "land of the free".

Why it might be that Asians who are bullied 3.3x more than white people might commit suicide

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=193774

Among all Asian-Americans, those aged 20-24 had the highest suicide rate (12.44 per 100,000).

Among Asian-American adults, those aged 18-34 had the highest rates of suicidal thoughts (11.9 percent), intent (4.4 percent) and attempts (3.8 percent) compared to other age groups.3

Asian-Americans college students were more likely than White American students to have had suicidal thoughts and to attempt suicide.4

Pressure to achieve is a huge factor but family conflict and bullying at school have to be strong factors as well

So 'bootstrapping in the land of the free' does have some downsides

http://www.apa.org/pi/oema/resources/ethnicity-health/asian-american/suicide.aspx

MMR says

Top guard dogs. Good for mauling Indian-targeting hood rats(Usually Black or Hispanic in California) that usually carry illegal firearms with the registration numbers wiped off. Any welfare family hood rat who attempts to enter my future California home with intent to rob or harm will escape with only with significant injury and none of my assets

http://listverse.com/2007/11/13/top-10-badass-guard-dogs/

LMAO! i will get a German Shepherd. professor Useless (what his students call him) can get a Chihuahua for home protection since he's one of those "all dogs are created equally" type of guy.

Yeah, German Shepherds are awesome. I wish I had a big dog now but such dogs don't do well in tiny apartments.

Mark D says

LMAO! i will get a German Shepherd. professor Useless (what his students call him) can get a Chihuahua for home protection since he's one of those "all dogs are created equally" type of guy.

MMR says

Yeah, German Shepherds are awesome. I wish I had a big dog now but such dogs don't do well in tiny apartments.

Mark D says

LMAO! i will get a German Shepherd. professor Useless (what his students call him) can get a Chihuahua for home protection since he's one of those "all dogs are created equally" type of guy.

i would go with a shotgun. i believe all Asians should have guns.

Moderate Infidel says

And what did you do? If i were there and that happened that person would be paying me hush money the rest of my life.

i reported him to the other partners and the eeoc. he was subsequently forced out of the partnership. i kept my job for a while, then moved on to a different company.

The rate of murders by white people of blacks is wildly over stated by the official stats. A huge number of Hispanics, who are by no reasonable definition white, are listed as white in police databases. I'm talking about tattoo on the back of the neck, white socks up to the knees straight Cholo types and when they kill someone it is listed as a white murder.

I have no idea why so many Hispanics call themselves white but it may have something to do with their parents illegal status.

The actual instances of someone identifiably white doing this is so low that when a white sounding name "Zimmerman" came up as having killed a black guy the entire media establishment lost its mind.

As for the gibberish about blacks getting a hard time by being arrested more the opposite is true. The sheer volume of black crime means that a lot of people get away with things. Add to that the snitching culture and even if everyone knew who committed a crime the police are on their own trying to prove it. If a black guy had killed Trayvon there could have been 50 witnesses and most of the time not a single one would say what happened.

The black community is violent. In every city on earth with a significant black population these neighborhoods are always the "don't go there at night" areas.

CL says

To summarize the seemingly consensus view here:

You hit it on the nail. There is a difference between acknowledging and dealing with the fact that blacks murder whites more than the reverse and presuming that a given black is a would-be murderer.

The fact is that most people, black or white, do not commit murder. So the generalization is not valid. It is that generalization that leads to paranoia and more unjust killings.

Now the information that blacks murder whites more often than white murder blacks might be useful. The immediate question that comes to mind is why? Is it the result of poverty, racism, the gap between haves and have nots, culture, lack of education, or something else?

If the goal is to minimize murders, asking the why question is what's important.

Start by ending the war on drugs and you can minimize that number by quite a bit (incl. the disproportionate arrest of blacks for possessing drugs). Unfortunately that's not a position held by the mainstream democrats or republicans, only by libertarians.

mell says

Start by ending the war on drugs and you can minimize that number by quite a bit (incl. the disproportionate arrest of blacks for possessing drugs). Unfortunately that's not a position held by the mainstream democrats or republicans, only by libertarians.

This is true. if drugs were regulated like alcohol-our bursting prison systems would be cut down to size and many men won't be barred from good jobs, because of drug busts and prison terms that will show up in background checks for job applications. How is one supposed to put your past behind you and move on when you can't??

Dan8267 says

You hit it on the nail. There is a difference between acknowledging and
dealing with the fact that blacks murder whites more than the reverse and
presuming that a given black is a would-be murderer.

Yup this is my whole point about the TM case. Wether it is murders or crimes blacks do have a higher proportion of crimes. There is nothing wrong in acknowledging that or even looking at why. But in one of the companies I worked for as a consultant, the Director was a black woman who rose up from humble beginnings. Does this mean if she walks home in my neighbourhood with her son, I should follow them and get in a fight and kill them-because they look funny?

Also black welfare is very high. I read that blacks make up 10% of population but 30+ % of welfare-which is just wrong. Well, it more or less mirrors CA's ratios . But maybe the govt should start matching folks on welfare with "undesirable" jobs like working in the fields or some such. But that is off topic .

What percentage of "whites murdering blacks" in South Florida is actually "Cubans, Dominicans and Puerto Ricans" vs Anglo whites?

Dan8267 says

Now the information that blacks murder whites more often than white murder blacks might be useful. The immediate question that comes to mind is why? Is it the result of poverty, racism, the gap between haves and have nots, culture, lack of education, or something else?

At the very least, the odds are that it would reduce their chances of becoming drug dealing pawns on the street, living at home with mom, taking penitentiary chances to make a living and making less on a per-hour basis than a mcdonalds cashier.

http://www.freakonomics.com/books/freakonomics/chapter-excerpts/chapter-3/

lostand confused says

But maybe the govt should start matching folks on welfare with "undesirable" jobs like working in the fields or some such. But that is off topic .

Dan8267 says

If the goal is to minimize murders, asking the why question is what's important.

That is rarely the actual goal in these sorts of observations.

Goals are usually one or more of:
Less of something
More of something
Nothing at all
Apartheid
Pretend this is the Natural Order and we should accept it