patrick.net

clambo, Right on! I'm going to make a note of your comments, very astute!

And how about this: "You are rich when you are satisfied with what you have".

And this: "A small house can hold as much love as a big house".

Finally this: "Never look into another mans pocket".

"With great power comes a high electricity bill"

If I wanted to look up historical quotes, I can do that on my own.

clambo says

I guess I don't so much mind being old, as I mind being fat and old.

I saw few die of hunger; of eating, a hundred thousand.

In general, mankind, since the improvement of cookery, eats twice as much as nature requires.

Sounds more like a weight loss book.

I heard that normalizing for every other variable, the best indicator for how much money someone would make in their life is... The number of math classes they take.

Who knew ??

Finnian says

I heard that normalizing for every other variable, the best indicator for how much money someone would make in their life is... The number of math classes they take.

I wish.

marcus says

I wish.

Yeah, I doubt there is a strong correlation. It would be nice though.

I think there is a correlation, up to a point. Most students going to the very best Univrsities probably took Math at least up to Calculus (even if they are English majors). And then if students are great at MAth, but not so much at other subjects, and therefore not going to a top college or University, they still probably have a good shot at a very good technical career.

Another factor to becoming a millionaire I forgot to list: AFFIRMATIVE ACTION.

We still discussing this list Abe made up then attributed it to some "top rated" business coach who chooses to remain anonymous?

You realize Patrick had a link to an article that discussed this exact thing. It includes actual names of actual rich people and things they attribute to their success.

http://www.alternet.org/books/155149/the_self-made_myth%3A_debunking_conservatives%27_favorite_--_and_most_dangerous_--_fiction_?page=1

…interviews with 14 wealthy Americans -- including well-known names like Warren Buffet, Ben Cohen, Abigail Disney, and Amy Domini -- …Over and over, these people credit their wealth to:
* An excellent education received in public schools and universities

* The support of the Small Business Administration and other government agencies

* A strong regulatory environment

* Enforceable copyright and intellectual property laws

* A robust system of roads, ports, airports, and mass transit

* The government's role in creating the Internet

* The ability to issue public stock in a fair, reliable, regulated marketplace

Also, discussed in the article is “The Role of Luck and Timing”.

People who hit the jackpot often ascribe it to their genius or their system.

There was a great study where people were given the same leadup of a man & woman in a dating encounter.

At the end, the story given could bifurcate into a scenario where it either ends romantically or she is dragged away and raped. Startlingly enough, participants in either end scenario tended to attribute either outcome as having been an inevitable consequence of the things the woman did. Despite the fact the scenario was constructed such that the actions of the woman were irrelevant it was just luck whether she was facing a rapist or Mr. Right.

People work from the outcome and RATIONALIZE backwards.

LEO - USE YOUR GOD GIVEN BRAIN - EVERYONE HAS ACCESS TO THE 7 ITEMS THOSE RICH GUYS SAY HELPED THEM SUCCEED.

WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF THE 315 MILLION AMERICANS...WHY AREN'T THEY FILTHY RICH TOO? THEY HAD THE EXACT SAME "STRONG REGULATORY ENVIRONMENT", AND EVERYTHING ELSE ON THAT LIST.

Not that you understand logic Abe, but I think the point was that the government is a necessary condition for success but not that it's a sufficient condition for success.

ie:

Success implies that the support of government was received, but the support of government does not imply success.

Mr. Marcus,

Government is a necessary condition for success? Is that like AIR is necessary for success. Or food is necessary for success?

Please elaborate, I don't understand YOUR logic. Last time I checked, governmental agencies, strong regulations and the like, were roadblocks to success. Hurdles that needed to be overcome.

Robust system or roads and mass transit? Thats government SUPPORT for success? Again, that same SUPPORT was recieved by ALL THE COMPANIES AND BUSINESSES THAT FAILED.

Oh poor me, I coulld NEVER SUCCEED AT ANYTHING WITHOUT MY CARING AND SUPPORTIVE GOVERNMENT. Is that what you actually think???

Does the government put up the capital?
Does the government take the risks?
Does the government make the tough decisions?
Does the government put in the hours?
Does the government put up with all the problems?
Does the government help make payroll?
Does the government hire the employees?
Does the government manage the employees?
Does the government defend junk lawsuits filed by the employees?
Does the government pile on regulations?
Does the government have a blizzard of laws, codes, rules and standards of practice which must be complied with?
Does the government have stiff penalties for lack of compliance?
Does the government assist in the payment of any fees, charges, permits, assessments or taxes from any town, city, county or any other jurisdiction?
Well does it?

In my experience success is something individuals, or groups of individuals, create on their own, in spite of the government.
I'm not saying we don't need government and roads and the internet (Thanks Al Gore!!). We do need government. But success is a personal accomplishment, not something government created or assisted with.

So again? What support did the government provide that allowed success to blossom?

Honest Abe says

So again? What support did the government provide that allowed success to blossom?

The government wrote the constitution, and set up the most free market ever known on this planet.

You can't have a free market without government

CBEO - Government didn't write the constitution. Men who fought for their freedom from oppressive government wrote the constitution, so that men would be free FROM oppressive government.

The free market hasn't been free for approximately 100 years. You can't have a free market WITH government, the pendulum has sung way too far to the un-free side.

(And yes, you need laws to prevent poison from being in food, and you need teachers, and roads, and police. What you don't need are a bunch of busy body liberals micro managing every aspect of everyones personal and business life from cradle to grave). There, I said it.

CBOEtrader says

You can't have a free market without government

You're wasting your time. Abe is a bot programmed that complete anarchy is the correct route to eventual Paradise.

Honest Abe says

What you don't need are a bunch of busy body liberals micro managing every aspect of everyones personal and business life from cradle to grave

I agree with this statement in the same way I agree that we don't need a bullet in the head.

Here's the thing dude. You talk in such extremes, that you don't end up communicating unique content. Sometimes your posts read like the front cover of a Ron Paul book. Bullet points don't tell you much-- Thats why the author writes the whole book.

Forum debate tips (I think we should start this as its own thread)...

1)Don't speak in hyperbole. Saying "OBAMA is the WORST EVER" is a waste of time. Saying "Obama screwed big time when when he XYZ" combined with some supporting evidence, perhaps a historical perspective, etc... might prompt interesting discussion-- which is why we are all here, right?

2)Try to find common ground before pointing out where you disagree. Showing you can relate to where another is coming from will open their mind to your ideas (as well as your mind to their ideas).-- Again, this just makes for a more interesting discussion.

3)Namecalling often makes you appear as whatever you accuse the other to be.

I'd love to hear more tips from those that frequent forums to discuss/learn, rather than to flame.

Honest Abe says

The free market hasn't been free for approximately 100 years

Perhaps, but this is still hyperbole lacking content.

There's no such thing as a completely free market...and every industry is a different shade of grey.

If you want to make this point, try showing specific changes and their impact on an industry. Or perhaps compare a free (er) version of an industry compared to a more controlled version.

For instance, the enormous success of silicon valley is a potential case study for the power of a free market. Technology, the internet, etc... have all been relatively unregulated compared to our more mature industries. Thus, the barriers to entry have often been nonexistent. This resulted in Bill Gates, Sergey Brin, and Zuck to all start companies using little more than the power of their own innovative minds-- creating massive wealth and thousands of jobs for Americans. (Though it should be pointed out that the government shoud NOT stand idly by and let MSFT influence monopoly power.)

Honest Abe says

What you don't need are a bunch of busy body liberals micro managing every aspect of everyones personal and business life from cradle to grave).

Fiscal liberals only want to micro-manage corporation's businesses from cradle to grave. Social conservatives are the ones who want to manage people's personal business from cradle to grave.

Those who are social liberals and financial conservatives want neither.

If social conservatives are the one's who want to manage peoples personal lives, why are the sponsors of most of the bills and legislation democrats???

Honest Abe says

If social conservatives are the one's who want to manage peoples personal lives, why are the sponsors of most of the bills and legislation democrats???

OK, but I need more specifics before I am convinced. If I am understanding you post correctly you are implying that every bill manages peoples personal lives with equal weight. So, whoever is introducing more bills is managing our personal lives more. That correct?

OK, to finish off your very convincing argument, please:
1. Demonstrate that Democrats actually do sponsor more legislation.

2. Demonstrate that either:
a. All legislation equally managers peoples personal lives; or
b. Legislation sponsored by Democrats is more heavily weighted to manager peoples personal lives.

NOTE: One off examples do not count, we need to view the entire data set objectively to come to a conclusion.

Thanks.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2012/may/8/house-vote-trayvon-amendment/

Democrats don't want anyone to be able to defend themselves. Call 9-11 (dial-a-prayer) and let someone else defend you. When seconds matter, they'll be there in just a few minutes, if they get the address correct.

Selling homemade baked goods banned in MA (D)

Winter sledding banned in NY (D)

Tossing football at beach in CA illegal (D)

Lemonaid stand violates law in GA (D)

Flying American Flag by vet banned in MI (D)

Saying prayer at football game ruled illegal in NE (D)

Try paying attention. This kinda crap by Dumb-o-crats isn't that hard to notice.

Bullshit on you. It says that footballs and frisbees are allowed "UNDER CERTAIN CONDITONS". Yea, its ok to toss them on Tuesdays and Thurdays, between 7:45 am to 11:00 am, if and only if the weather is clear and sunny, and the tide is at a low-low condition. Under all other conditions its illegal.

If the law is violated, you get a $1,000 fine, 10 days in county jail, 30 days community service, and a real probation officer.

Zev Yara-sloth-ski is a (D) isn't he?

Honest Abe says

If social conservatives are the one's who want to manage peoples personal lives, why are the sponsors of most of the bills and legislation democrats???

I don't know what you are referring to here. Are you saying that most legislation is sponsored and passed by Democrats? If so, I'd be more concerned about what the legislation is rather than how many bills there are. Some legislation like the USA Patriot Act and NDAA are extremely intrusive and oppressive. Other bills are innocuous.

Now both Democrats and Republicans have voted for both evil acts, but Republicans have overwhelmingly given greater support for both acts as shown by the following.

NDAA Votes
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/112-2011/h375

The Tea Party and the Patriot Act Vote

http://www.themonkeycage.org/assets_c/2011/02/teapartypatriotact2-305.html

Roll Call: How Tea Party in House voted on Patriot Act, May 2011

Yep, the Republicans, especially the self-proclaimed Tea Party voted overwhelmingly to undermine the Constitution and manage people's personal lives. Now, if the Tea Party actually believed in any of the crap they claim to, you know like small government, they would have rejected everything about the Patriot Act and NDAA, and I would be singing their praises. However, the didn't. The small government party that fears the overwhelming executive power that the negro Obama has usurped in an unprecedented power grab, is a-okay with the government kidnapping, torturing, and raping people they claim might be terrorists, but have no accountability if they're wrong.

And that's why I can't take Republicans or the Tea Party serious when they claim to want small government. Every chance they get, they make government bigger and scarier. I actually do want small government. I want the government to have less money, less power, less leeway, more transparency, more accountability, and more oversight by us citizens. I want the government to fear the people because the only alternative is for the people to fear the government. I say the government shouldn't have any power that we the people don't explicitly give it. But that's not what the Republicans and the Tea Party want. It's clearly not what they want.

The thing is, if the Republicans actually believed the things they claim to believe, they would be an entirely different party. And I would support them. But they don't. It's all lies and hypocrisy and has been since Reagan.

The Republicans believe in only one thing: keeping the poor and middle class in place so that the uber-rich can live dedicate lifestyles. Republican politicians don't believe in rugged individualism, hard-work, earning your income and keeping it, free markets, or competition. All of those things would hurt the uber-rich who have nothing to gain from entrepreneurship and everything to lose if someone makes their monopolies obsolete.

Now that doesn't mean I like the Democrats at all. I think they are absolutely full of shit, corrupt, and greedy. But their corruption and greed is of the normal political type. The level of bat-shit crazy, insatiable greed and corruption and sheer evilness of the Republicans over the past 30 years makes the Democrats look like My Little Ponies in contrast. As bad as the Democrats are, they aren't nearly as vile and despicable as the pro-torture, pro-tyranny Republican Party.

Things have gotten so bad over the past 30 years with the Republican Party that it is now irredeemable. The only chance for fiscal responsibility is for the Republican Party to utterly die and a new party to be formed that has nothing to do with the people who were in the Republican Party. I mean none of the racists, none of the Jesus-freaks, none of the war-mongerers, and none of the fiscal parasites that have no problem destroying the economy to make a quick buck.

A true small government, low tax, low spending party would have to be made of people with a strong ethical backbone and fiscal responsibility. If such a party were formed, many "fiscally conservative Democrats" would leave that party for the new one. In fact, I think the only thing holding the Democratic Party together is opposition of the bat-shit crazy Republican Party. Democrats are basically everyone who isn't an extremist nutcase hell-bent on turning America into a mix of lawless corporations and a theocracy. Without the Republicans, the Democratic Party would shatter from its differences and internal disputes. We could end up with three or four parties.

Honest Abe says

Selling homemade baked goods banned in MA (D)

Winter sledding banned in NY (D)

Tossing football at beach in CA illegal (D)

Lemonaid stand violates law in GA (D)

Flying American Flag by vet banned in MI (D)

Saying prayer at football game ruled illegal in NE (D)

Try paying attention. This kinda crap by Dumb-o-crats isn't that hard to notice.

Assuming those things aren't out of context, I would disagree with all of those policies and I would call their proponents idiots and sleezebags. Do you have links about each of those so I can read the whole issue and provide meaningful feedback?

In any case, none of these things even approaches the level of having electrodes attached to your genitals, being sexually molested by the TSA, having nude pictures of yourself taken without your consent, having your phone, email, and bank account tapped without warrant, and a host of other violations that Republicans love.

Top success factor to becoming a millionaire:
1. Save your dough after age 25. Most before that age don't give a shit.
2. Resist trying to impress the chicks with your dough. Pick up tabs at "interesting"=cheap Chinese, Vietnamese, etc. restaurants. Any restaurant where the waiters are caucasian and wear actual suits is OUT.
3. Resist taking on debt to get a nice car. California has awesome used cars. In New England they rust away. Buy used here.
4. Resist fancy vacations with your girlfriend. We know screwing in a new location is more fun, but it's not truly worth the expense. Don't bring sand to the beach.
5. Invest the dough you save agressively. Don't bother with too esoteric funds like Emerging Markets however. Even "domestic" funds have foreign stocks in there for total exposure, e.g. Fidelity Contrafund.
6. Don't chicken out and sell when the market dips. This is what the stock market does. Buy when the market dips or don't do anything and wait.
7. Don't buy fancy clothes unless you are paid to wear them. You can find some high quality brand name shit at thrift stores. My brother started this hobby and got the rest of us interested. You would be surprised the fancy shit that is donated in small affluent towns. A rich guy dies and his blue blazer goes there eventually
8. Buy AAPL if you still can before it's $900+ per share.
9. Don't waste time wondering what other people think of your financial situation.
10. Don't waste too much time helping out people who are going to drag you down in every sense of the word. They can be girls with some problems who also happen to be hot looking. Hit and run.
11. Don't buy expensive toys you will never use. Go out fishing on your friend's boat. He bought it and now needs a first mate/cabin boy. Don't get suckered into buying a luxury you won't use.
12. Don't get unhealty. Stay active and not a couch potato. You need energy and health to go out and make money.
13. Don't go to the mall to stroll around with your girlfriend. You may end up seeing something she must have and you may feel obligated to buy it.
14. Don't feel sorry for those who are broke. They can make it if they are not handicapped or blind. Don't get suckered by their sob stories, it's bullshit. I have heard 1000 of them here in Santa Cruz.
15. Buy stuff used on Craigslist or new at Walmart.com
16. Accelerate slowly. F=MA. This will increase gas mileage.
17. Don't waste too much time on these blogs. I just broke that rule.
Enjoy your million dollars. It will take you about 20 years or so.

clambo says

12. Don't get unhealty.

Ah, ha ha best advice yet on getting rich in the US.

clambo says

12. Don't get unhealty. Stay active and not a couch potato. You need energy and health to go out and make money.

Uh, my Aunt was a big wig at Patagonia, the clothing company. She was extremely active, and basically her entire free time was spent climbing walls or climbing mountains. She had next to no body fat and in fantastic shape.

She died several years ago, in her early 40s, from a second bout of breast cancer. Never smoked, never did drugs, had no kids.

clambo says

Enjoy your million dollars. It will take you about 20 years or so.

Riiight.

Most of your other points either blame women for spending a guy's money or fail to acknowledge youthful stupidity.

Remember, Jobs died in his 50s. He didn't make it to 65. He was also a health nut by most accounts. Many others, who are far less well off, don't make it either.

thunderlips11 says

had no kids.

Doesn't not having kids present extra health risks later in life for women? I vaguely recall something about that.

It's interesting how different male & female biology is in small things. Like bone mass on women is added from inside outward, whereas in men it's the reverse. Then once menopause hits that stops, and they start losing bone much faster than men.

Jobs real problem was he tried to pretend he would magically get better and didn't do anything about his diagnosis for too long.

Vicente says

Doesn't not having kids present extra health risks later in life for women? I vaguely recall something about that.

Could be, now that you mention it, I do recall hearing something about that. Like Jobs, my aunt also delayed kemo by a few weeks, but she had already been through it before. Even had she run right in for it, the prognosis wasn't good given that the cancer returned so quickly and they didn't have much left to remove.

I don't want to give the impression that taking care of one's self is useless, just that shit happens sometimes even when you do.

clambo,

I like your list. There is probably some "tongue in cheek" humor there...but there's also a lot of truth to what you say.

Save $$$
Don't overspend
Resist debt
Don't buy things you don't need
Stay healthy
Buy used.

Now if we could just teach congress-critters the first four items on my list above. Oh well, so much for wishful thinking.

clambo says

Top success factor to becoming a millionaire:

Damn, I've been doing 14 of the 17 things on your list since I was 22, and I'm not proud of it. Well maybe 15 since Apple is in the S&P500.

http://www.f150online.coms/general-discussion/267069-now-illegal-go-sledding.html

sledding banned in Omaha.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/general-political-discussion/125509-bake-sales-illegal-massachusetts.html

Bake sales banned in MA.

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/story?id=100640&page=1

Football prayer illegal in TX

http://www.zimbio.com/Flag+Etiquette/articles/11/Homeowners+Association+Bans+American+Flag

HOA bans american flag in AZ

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blumer/2011/07/15/young-girls-lemonade-stand-shut-down-midway-ga

Lemonade stand shut down in GA.

You liberal dummies are either not paying attention to the deterioration of America...or are actively supporting it.

Its the latter, isn't it?

Honest Abe says

not paying attention to the deterioration of America...or are actively supporting it.

Yawn. Others have pointed out that we would agree.

The thing is, in my view the single biggest problem is that we don't respect real debate or have enough intelligent conversations about what is going on.

You Abe are basically a poster boy for the dumbing down of political discourse and the right wing's penchant for boiling things down to stupid and evil little sound bytes to be consumed by the likes of CS, Bap and you, and many others who are even less perceptive.