patrick.net

socal2 says

It's never the Democrats fault. Ever. Even when Democrats hold total majorities.

Democrats in the minority failed to stop the $2T wars, the Medicare C & D bullshit, and the $3T tax cuts, Gramm–Leach–Bliley, Greenspan's malfeasance at the Fed.

Democrats in the majority passed NAFTA and were silent on our $700B/yr trade deficit.

are you really against free trade agreements?

Free trade, in the abstract, is great. But persistent trade deficits, above and beyond the Triffin Dilemma considerations, are immensely harmful to the long-term prospect of this nation.

We need to forge a new future and it is going to be hard and competitive.

That's not our problem. How can you be competitive in manufacturing when the line labor rate is ~$300/month?

The trade with China and Mexico has been an immense wealth transporter INTO this
country -- for every $1 in wealth we've sent to them we've gotten $5 in wealth in return.

But this transaction is not completed yet due to the deficit we've incurred -- we owe the world $5T in sovereign debt alone, as I mentioned 100 million man-years of labor at $25/hr. Private debt held by foreign interests is no doubt of the same magnitude.

This nation has been living on credit and bullshit for a very long time now:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=6sy

and it's going to come someday when we'll have to pay the piper.

What we really need to do is learn from our mistakes. The mistakes the conservatives in power -- Democrat and Republican -- have been making for a generation now.

keep 20th century manufacturing jobs going in America so we can all buy $5,000 IPods and $70,000 GM cars to support expensive union manufacturing?

for a putative hard-nosed reality-based person you sure spout the bullshit

socal2 says

Both Left and Right better get through their heads that we no longer hold our post WWII monopolies on industry and that we are going to have to scrape, claw and compete with the rest of the planet.

I think you're right.

socal2 says

And Democrats got total control of Congress in 2006.

By which point the damage (ie. wars, tax cuts, medicare part D) had already been done.

socal2 says

Why do you think the Teaparty wing of the Republicans sprung up in recent years?

Because the Koch Bros funded that POS faux astroturf campaign that is why.
http://www.alternet.org/media/129656

Lately they've pulled most of their funding and so the Tea Party has already begun to fade now that it is no longer of any use to the Republicans since its been successfully co-oped.

socal2 says

I am just pointing out that the Democrats were also a big part of the spending binge - and they had a chance to undo all the "Bush Tax Cuts" when Obama had majorities in 2009, but he pussed out and wasted our country's time on Obamacare for 3 years.

See that is a good reason to dislike Obama and the Democrats but that is also a very far cry from what you were saying earlier, which was essentially to lay most or all of the blame for our current deficits on Obama.

socal2 says

Again, at least the Republicans are now paying lip-service to the idea of getting our deficits in order.

Lip service is all you'll get from them. Oh they'll happily cut social program funding and even cut Medicare and Social Security if they can even though those programs are all being paid into by Americans...and then they'll take the money they've saved by cutting those programs and give it to the military or banks or mega corps. And the deficit will just get bigger. They've been doing that for years so I have no clue at all why you'd believe they do different.

socal2 says

Its totally the failed Blue State model of big expensive, unionized government and high taxes.

Oh god not this crap again. Before we go much further on this topic you're going to have to present some data and not talking points before I take you seriously. Case in point, taxes aren't very high at all in most states, even in supposedly very blue "socialist" states like CA which in reality isn't blue or socialist at all:

socal2 says

Granted California has had some pathetic RINO Governors (Arnold), but the California executive position is one of the weakest in the nation and the California Legislature has been dominated by FAR LEFT liberals forever.

Where are you getting your information from? Freep or Drudge? Quit reading that crap R propaganda. The CA legislature is anything but dominated by the FAR LEFT, which as far as I can tell basically doesn't even exist anymore in American politics. There are no Communist Party reps in congress, and nearly no Socialist or Green Party reps in congress either IIRC. The Democrats are anything but FAR LEFT, they're FIRE economy corporatist just like the Repubs these days, so stop being hyperbolic. Propositions 8, 13, and 187 are a but few landmark far right laws that were passed in CA off the top of my head.

socal2 says

I assume you are aware of the terrible pension bomb facing California municipal and State workers? No amount of increased taxes is going to square that circle. Are you really going to blame both parties for these unsustainable union policies and benefits?

Damn straight I am. That problem was brought up and failed to be addressed multiple times over the years by several state legislatures and governors who decided to play kick the can instead of fix things. The retirement funds were mismanaged heavily (ie. buying CDO's and MBS at the top of the housing bubble as AAA investments) in particular this decade, its got nothing to do with "unsustainable union policies and benefits". Many people paid into those retirement funds fair and square and need the money they were promised in order to live when they retire.

This just in to refute Marcus original post:

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/5-trillion-man-debt-has-increased-under-obama-502776147648456

And there you have it.

Honest Abe says

Your hero, in three and one half years, has increased the debt $5.0 Trillion

Abe is incapable of understanding that Bush policies still in place during Obama's preidency would have added to the debt (during Obama's Preidency) even if the economy was way better than it is.

But since it fell off the cliff in a financial crisis, lowering revenues (but with Bush tax cuts and war spending still in place), it accounts for a big part of the debt he wants to blame on Obama.

If that lie basically makes it easier for you to condemn Obama, okay. SOme of us just wish you were a little more intellectually honest.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/5-trillion-man-debt-has-increased-under-obama-502776147648456

Here, again, is the post that shows how much the debt ($5 Trillion) has increased under oBAmA.

Facts don't matter to Honest Abe.

marcus says

If that lie basically makes it easier for you to condemn Obama, okay. SOme of us just wish you were a little more intellectually honest.

This response to red political pavlovian programming sounds full of the blue version of the same.

In the spirit of intellectually honesty, please list the exact lie you are discussing and the party you feel is lying.

CBOEtrader says

In the spirit of intellectually honesty, please list the exact lie you are discussing and the party you feel is lying.

See quote.

marcus says

Honest Abe says

Your hero, in three and one half years, has increased the debt $5.0 Trillion