patrick.net

mike2 says

Technology cost a lot of other jobs but so far the public keeps hiring realtors? Must be a reason that they like.

Maybe the public doesn't like realtors, but also doesn't have any real choice about it.

No one ever asks the buyer if he wants to pay the 6%. Buyers are trapped by the system as soon as the seller signs a listing contract. They agents get in the way and hide information for their own profit, without providing any real value.

Agents prevent buyers and sellers from talking directly to each other.

mike2 says

It has been tried and the public is no interested enough to do it. There are tons of websites for the MILS already or similar ones that download from the MILS.

Doing this on your own seems very confusing and I've not even tried. Just looking for a sales price for a house is extremely difficult. This is done on purpose to keep the power with people who's incomes depend on housing business. If this information was made easily available, for example if the exact sales price of a house was immediately reported to a public website upon sale, the industry would be a lot more comfortable and easy to understand.

The NAR only gets more powerful. Its far far more likely the nar will get laws passed making FSBO illegal (epecially in CA!).

There are already very real reasons to use an agent and not FSBO one being exposure(most all buyers are chauffered around by a soccer mom/agent so they wont see your FSBO). AND the other main reason is LEGAL - I would bet you could make a decent amount of money buying a FSBO then suing the seller for not following the laws on disclosure (If they fail to give you a letter in writing diclosing the lead paint, asbestos, the land fill 2 miles away, etc etc - EZ money for a CA abulance chasing attorney. If you are an agent you know the laws and you WILL ALWAYS DISCLOSE to protect your own ass and the seller.)

KILLERJANE says

Yeah I hate the 6% fee too but I would want someone representing me. I never met anyone I bought from or sold to. I prefer that, keep emotions / conflicts lower. Same goes for people I rent to, except for one time. It's better to not get to personal with $.

So hire a real-estate lawyer to deal with the legal side and optionally negotiation if that's not your thing.

You may be looking at $250/hour or $62.50 per piece of correspondence with a 15 minute billable increment if you don't negotiate a flat fee with some limits (review and negotiate up to 3 contracts for $400 or whatever).

With three years of training in law school to look after your legal interests he should do a _MUCH_ better job than a Realtor(TM) with their 40 hours of training.

Plus $1000 for an MLS listing and lock box you're spending much, much less than the $6000 you're paying a listing agent for a $200K property or $12,000 on a $400K one.

If you're uncomfortable coming up with your own comps for pricing (ex, you live in a state where transfers aren't a matter of public record, there haven't been recent sales) hire an appraiser for $350 for a walk through (c 2006-2008) or $200 for a drive-by.

My wife and I sold two properties that way, using an appraiser to price one and eyeballing sales records the other. We negotiated for flat fees with the lawyers and talked to the buyers ourselves. With a little staging by her and inexpensive replacement of worn surfaces half a notch better than the competitions' rental/sales grade replacement (we also skipped the popular chocolate chip carpet look which we felt looked like rodent droppings) we exceeded competing Realtors(TM) sales prices and undercut their time on market.

I do doubt you'll avoid giving a selling agent their cut. There aren't many buyers who haven't been convinced that they need an agent, even those who initially come without one at which time you tell them that without an agent you'll knock the selling agent's commission off the sales price and that after paying a few hundred dollars for a lawyer's time to look after their interests they'll still save thousands.

"How would you get around realtors' refusal to share MLS listings?" Okay I have done a LOT of research on this. First you have to know IF and how the listing agent is doing this. Here are some tips. We both know that this is done ALL the time ( listing agents to working cooperatively with buyers agents). I contacted the state DRE and spoke to an investigator. The main person who gets screwed over is the seller. You need to look at the original MLS listing agreement, and they won't show it to you. What we have is a failure of the listing agent to aggressively market the property. In response, the listing agent can always say that they listed it, so that's proof they tried to market it . They have a point. But an Broker insider told me that there is NO LAW that says that listing agents must answer the telephone or respond to emails. They acknowledged the practice. Also the MLS systems are DESIGNED to help listing agents get away with this and other frauds against the seller and buyer. if you look carefully at the public MLS websites you might no be aware but the LISTING AGENT IS ALWAYS listed---allegedly so the "Biuyers agent" knows who to contact. This is B.S. because the MLS's have a way to show CONFIDENTIAL information such as name of the seller and other details and disclaimers The MLS's could always input listing agent information only here, but they won't because it enables the listing agent to maintain CONTROL over the listing, and this inhibits "aggressive" buyers agents from getting lower prices. Each MLS uses a database that is published to other Realtor websites automatically (example: Realtor.com, Redfin, Zillow etc) But this database program SUBSTITUTES the name of the other realtors AS THE POINT OF CONTACT for the listing. Many buyers do not know about the public MLS sites and think because Joe Blow realtor has this listing on their website that IT IS THEIR LISTING. We know that is usually not the case. If buyers always went to the public MLS sites including Realtor.com FIRST, they would know who the listing agent REALLY is. Another point, if a listing agent attempts to deceive buyers---and many do this--the MLS systems encourage this by the way they are designed. Example: Many buyers AND buyers agents want to AVOID short sales and/Or bank owned REO's. These can be difficult transactions and delay income if any to the agents on the "buy" side. Many agents REFUSE to take on short sales or REO's. but there are now TWO new tyoes of listings by the sly sneaky listing agents. I call these "Stealth short sales" or Stealth REO's. The listing agent initally lists the property as ACTIVE not short and not REO. This loads the database as a "New" listing. All participants in the MLS agreements get this initial listing. After a few hours to even weeks, the listing agent changes the status to its accurate type. For example "active" to "short". This gets them a lot of traffic until it is listed as a "short" sale. But by then, they have generated a lot of leads to go out and try to scoop up any buyers for a dual agency contract. TO THEIR (not the sellers" advantage. Now the buyer if they REALLY know what they are doing might be able to extract enough information from the listing agent---as a possible buyers agent for the buyer. But there are pitfalls. If the listing agent is willing to screw the seller, why aren't they equally willing to screw the buyers? They WILL--if they can. On Short sales and REO's the banks know what is going on. They keep statistics on each listing agent. If they think the listing agent is not aggressive enough or if they notice the buyer is represented bu the listing agent or someone from their office, they might be curious. So one game of listing agents is to "seduce" buyers into thinking that "the buyer" is getting a deal, when it is not true. I have seen this many times. These sales transactions are NOT transparent and the advantage is always to the buyer who has the most accurate information.

Here are some tips: The listing agent will use different telephone numbers and email addresses for their buyers, sellers and everyone else. Look at all the telephone numbers each agent has! I can also play that game! Listing agents may use a WATS line usually 800 but NOT absolutely required. They see all information about the caller. If they don't pick up immediately, they are sure to check the caller ID to find out if it is a buyers agent. They will not return these calls, unless they have a buyer in their pocket for both sides of the deal. Some listing agents have a "third party" answering service screen all calls. They want BUYERS not other agents.

I have more if you want information, I can provide it.

My strategy is to do this:

NEVER GET EMOTIONAL about ANY property.
LEARN EVERYTHING you can about properties BEFORE they are listed. Think about it---there are many ways.
Carefully monitor the new listings---there are some tricks here. Sometimes other buyers (your actual competition) only look at the latest listings- Big mistake. Some listers are able to make a listing look OLD before it is listed. I saw one listing that was NEW--NEVER been listed (last 5 years), however the property was listed "listed over 30 days", how I don't know, but I KNOW it happened. The seller told me. I never use filters on the MLS. Many excellent listings have the following characteristics: Incorrect decsription. The listing will show LESS or lousy "features" ie NO photos, bad out of focus photos, NO indoor photos. They will show 2 bedroom 1 bath 800 sq ft fixer with no photos, when it is initially listed, but it is really a 3,000 sq ft 5 bed 3 bath custom house less than 5 years old. Once the listing agent gets their buyer they change asking and other data so it looks like they did whatever they tell the bank. On the offer I have now in escrow they did this. It was initially listed 35% higher at only 2 bed 2 bath at small sq footage, when it is really a 5 bed 2 bath larger house with a detached 4 car garage NOT listed initially. Dr van Norstrand / art vandelay asked to see this house within hours. I knew the area very well and was waiting for something like this to come on the market. I had my trusty walmart throw away phone set up for our favorite "actor" , and called as at 8 am. No one answered---NOT a surprise. Two minutes later I called a call... " Dr van Norstrand speaking....blah blah I knew EVERYTHING about the area, house and price information ---LOOK AT THE CLOSED SOLDS less then 90 or 30 days, NEVER contingencies, pendings or asking prices. Appraisers only look at closed SOLD's within 1 - 2 miles same type of house etc less than 30-90 days old. I knew this by my research. I acted VERY stupid about real estate, and she asked me the KEY question. Do you have to sell your house to buy this one? No, I need to buy the house to avoid hotel costs when visiting my sick * (fill in the blanks---be creative here). They will be VERY interested in showing you this property...and SHE WAS. But I had to know "value". I told her that I learned this because my sick* fill in the blanks relative has lived in this area many years and they know many people in the community. I am not at liberty to discuss their illness but they will be sick as long as they are alive...of course you understand many illnesses may make others think badly about one.

That cinched it... she cancelled several meetings and called me back on my cell phone while I was "packing my bags at the bed and breakfast preparing for my flight back to " be creative here-- I said Beverly hills.
"Don't mind the rental car"-- I only need it to get to/from the airport" This what Dr van Norstrand would say. I walked through quickly checking my watch frequently and said fine, I hope my wife likes the kitchen, but it seems too small. What was that price again? She dropped the price to the lowest that she thought the bank would accept ( BTW--the house was NOT listed as a short sale at this time). I asked her if I could close in a month so I could invite some family members without the inconvenience and expense of a renting a hotel or B&B and ts costs. I could buy a car and have it available to anyone who wanted to visit old * be creative here.

It took me seconds to figure out if this was a good deal THATS when I found the Notice of Default AND the date of auction (in two weeks! ). I knew I got a crooked listing agent who wanted to close a deal FAST. The bank is small so who cares if she gives away the property. It's unlikely the bank has more listings available. Other agents saw this also.. I AM NOT AN AGENT. But now she has to HIDE from other agents while trying to get an offer from me. Instead, my wife dropped by with her Buyers agent and MY INSTRUCTIONS. The agent told us he would not insult the seller with out offer. But I said how much work is it anyway. He consented, I made my offer with no contingencies "as is" ...and it was accepted within one day! He said we had no chance since there were "...so many higher offers.." But why did we get the offer accepted ? It's all about the DEAL to realtors. Most are lazy and want the most they can for doing no work.

After we got the bank approval, my Realtor asked me what the hell happened. I reminded him he had a legal obligation to represent us.

He agreed and I told him. BTW I had to advise him HOW I wanted to word the offer. He is a top BROKER and did not have a clue.

He did NOT LIKE what I did...why? If he is supposedly representing us and NOT THE SELLER.

Anyway some more tidbits. I used a 15 yr loan for this one, so I don't want ANYTHING to derail the transaction. NO contigerncies AS-IS EXCEPT loan company appraisal ( price is good), but what if the appraiser sees something " or questionable ? I will have the appraisers report TOMORROW, but next Monday I have MY five inspectors at least checking everything...at my cost. NO reports to the loan company, or escrow, or sellers agent. This is for MY EYES ONLY . I have a statutory 17 day rescission period where I can walk for ANY reason. If the estimates of any repairs, termites etc exceed my predetimined amount -- I am assuming - 2% equity loss over next two years. Now all concerned want me to close the deal, the realtors ONLY want to get paid and the loan company knows I can handle any unknown to them repair costs if any. What i don't understand is that while writing the offer I HAD TO DO ALL THE WORK, Where is my so-called representative-buyers agent in all this. I also added other REQUIREMENTS of the seller--and they agreed. ALL PERSONAL PROPERTY to be removed 15 days before close of escrow---target date in ink. Bank liked this one---the target close date. All person to vacate property 15 DAYS before target date close of escrow. Already the seller is freaking out. They need the "cash for keys" which really comes from my down payment to have the cash to move. Too bad for them, so it's HUSTLE timed for last day of the month...how can they rent in the middle of the month? THEIR problem! But I have more-- I ran a Google check on the names of the sellers with keyword "convicted". Paydirt! Now, I am in control , if the sellers start playing games that they can't afford to leave, someone is sick and other excuses, all I have to do is let them know THAT IS KNOW they ( sellers, listing agent and bank) failed to disclose a material fact about the house covered by state law. Serious business. The house is defined UNDER the CALIFORNIA law as "stigmatized" or "insurmountable". ONLY they don't know that I know ...and it is a legally binding requirement they must disclose this in writing, and they have not and I don't think they ever will...because it is "that bad" about the sellers. But I do not care, I want the best house at the lowest price, in fact if they want to GIVE me the house I will take it. ROFL. I told my agent and he freaked out...he said they were breaking the law. The house is only "stigmatized" if it is known. And this will change when I become the owner. I will never have to disclose this when I sell. I don't know it.

theRebel says

Anyone interested in teaming up with me to develop some kind of application/website/mobile solution to compete with the realtor?

How would you get around realtors' refusal to share MLS listings?

Autodialers! Autodialer can take a phone exchange and dial every number in that exchange. Have it look for sellers. Each line can dial at least 1000 numbers a day.

E-man says

To argue that realtors are trying to claim 6% of ownership to all properties in the U.S. when the ultimate decision belongs to the sellers is weak. You're blaming the realtors because the sellers don't know how to negotiate for themselves?

Again, it's the victim's mindset, or shall I say a loser's mindset. It's always other people's fault for your weak and pathetic negotiation skills.

I agree. The post is all conspiracy theory based on irrational hatred. If a seller was willing to list their house at 10% below market value most Realtors would be willing to take less commission. In practice most sellers think their crap is gold. The Realtor knows an overpriced house is going to be a hard sell and they may lose the listing before it sells. In a perfect world, if every house was reasonably priced and sold before it expired Realtors could charge half the commission and still earn more. Sellers are as screwed up as the foolish Realtors who take their overpriced listings.

I've trained Realtors for the past seven years and I've haven't seen what would be called corruption. Incompetence, hell yes. Believing NAR, sometimes. NAR needs to be investigated rather than idividual Realtors.

Efficient Life Church says

I've trained Realtors for the past seven years and I've haven't seen what would be called corruption. Incompetence, hell yes. Believing NAR, sometimes. NAR needs to be investigated rather than idividual Realtors.

Training? How hard is it to say "it's a great time to buy".

LOL. That's NAR's job. I teach them how to better use the MLS, tax and Virtual Tour programs.

Housing Prices Are Cratering says

Efficient Life Church says

I've trained Realtors for the past seven years and I've haven't seen what would be called corruption. Incompetence, hell yes. Believing NAR, sometimes. NAR needs to be investigated rather than individual Realtors.

I hope you're training them in basic economic fundamentals, ethics and honesty.

It's a different class of Realtor who's willing to pay for training. The ones I interact with are usually top producers. They already figured it out. The dishonest ones are the ones who are struggling. This still is a business based on referrals and reputation. It's highly counterproductive to work unethically.

Believe it or not many buyers and sellers are highly unethical as well and they usually wind up with the unethical Realtors. For example take the way investor90 conducts himself and recommends others conduct themselves. He rationalizes that Realtors are crooks so it's OK for him to deal dishonestly. If he didn't have someone to demonize he would have to grow a conscience. "Birds of a feather (usually) flock together..."

Most people are honest most of the time. Those who keep running across unethical people need to take a look at themselves.

After 9.5 years quite purposely renting, we've decided to dig roots in the North Bay area and buy in Marin Co.

Prices are at ~ late-2004 range now....it's almost certain to be going down from here over time...but, we have assets and 7 year ARM's (our preferred, as we have good assets) are now 3%. Indeed, assuming one has 20% down payment, the combination of 2004 prices and unheard-of low mortgage rates for those qualified, make for a more compelling 'equation' to buy in this area than in 15 years. I'm a bit dismayed that the sale prices haven't come down more than they have - after all, in CA, one's taxes are based on sale price and not assessed values...so a lower sales price is more meaningful in CA than most other places around the US.

I'm now seeing firsthand the work that goes into buying and selling agents on a transaction.....and I'm not feeling that 6% overall commissions is onerous. Mind you, I'm a person that pays all credit card fees in full, has a 790 FICO score, 'banks' with Fidelity Investments and Vanguard as they have no commission paid agents, buy pre-owned vehicles at significant discount to new, etc. I'm not one to give up money for nothing...yet, I still think 6% is not onerous.

I'm in the Import/Export business (consumer durables). We have our specialty areas, but we essentially buy something made in China at X and try to sell for X times 25%. 25% is our hoped-for gross profit. We've been doing this awhile, have deep ties to major retailers in many countries now and have had a good few hits the past 11 years (you might well know or own our products). Because we keep overheads very low, when we find a product that both retail buyers and consumers covet, we make our 25% and keep about half of that as net profit. Those items that are not as embraced as strongly by the market, we don't make as much.

The difference here is that our retail buyers don't know what we mark our products up for (20-25%). Many of them ask for a better price as negotiating tactic, we have to judge the market and respond appropriately. We've been doing this awhile, so we usually go in strong and simply say no to their counteroffer. Most of the times we accurately call their bluff, and some of the time (I remember specifically a BIG deal with CVS some years ago) the buyer walks. But mostly, we get the deal we want at the price we want to them to pay because we did our homework well in advance - as a good Real Estate Agent would be.

Frankly, we and our staff pay little more time to transact a deal at 25% markup than RE agents pay to similar deals at 6% commish.

The difference in RE is that we KNOW the parasitic add-on is 6% and it's tempting to claw that amount of money back. But, each agent doesn't get 3%....1/3 to 1/2 of that is shared with their agency. Further, they are independent - car expenses including all gas and upkeep, tolls, and advertising, phone calls, cell phones, health insurance, etc. and all 1040 basis. No one is paying them a salary - they risk everything everyday to do what they do EVERY DAY and many fail because of this. It does take a special person, and perhaps a bit of good real estate market timing, to make a successful career at real estate. I wouldn't likely make it in that biz - I like business to business sales - as I don't want to have any personal involvement with people other than my friends and family. B2B is more impersonal way to make income via sales.

So, I'm a lifelong successful salesperson that hates to pay any excess parasitic fees for anything...but, 6% in total real estate fees is not in any way exorbitant to me. The good RE agents have earned it and the bad ones don't as they wither away and die.

Welcome to capitalism, folks; it's the unequal distribution of wealth for the successful rather than socialism's equal distribution of misery. Choose which path makes sense/cents to and for you and stay true to yourself in that choice. I choose capitalism.

Nice story...but as you mentioned above, you were the BUYER in the transaction... come back later and tell us when you become the SELLER and tell us if you like the 6% taken out of YOUR column on the HUD-1!!

===============================================================================

I agree...it remains to be seen what my view of the 6% may be when we sell and I have to pay it.

But, I do have precedent. We sold in late 2002 back east (the last time we owned a home), it sold in a weekend at over asking price and although that agent put very little time in selling it to reap her commission....what she did do was pretty spectacular in our opinion.

As the general market in Washington DC at that time was a sellers market, she underpriced the home to to draw in offers (boy, were we ever skeptical of that, but she assured us it is the right strategy and we let her guide us with some reluctance). Indeed, she was dead on - 3 offers a day after the first and only Sunday Open House. She went back to the 3 and said they were all in the same range (they were, + or - 2%) and to make the final offer at a preset time at her office on Tuesday @ 5PM.

The three buying agents came in with their final offers from their clients, we reviewed them and chose the best of the lot. The best offer was one for 10% over asking price...about 8% higher than even our giddy estimates were for the house.

Her efforts, tho brief in time, were herculean in scope and despite both the wife and I being in sales and or marketing...was something we simply could not have done on our own. Frankly, this agent was directly responsible for making us another $40,000 more than our most outlandish expectations could've expected.

In that light, the 6% was an easy amount to pay her - she demonstrated exceptional abilities that we could not have approximated. The next time, with uncertainty that underpins any home selling period in the future, I simply won't know until we get there.

I am preparing for the worst and hoping for the best. If it's 6% we are to pay, I'm going to use the very best agent we can find out there (my current buying agent is very good, but may not be the one we chose for that in 5-10-15 years forward). The great thing about this 6% is that it's pretty much fixed....you can pay a pro or a dog the same 6%. We're gonna' choose a pro and I strongly suspect to again find 6% rather cheap for their level of expertise.

We have that choice - another wonderful byproduct of capitalism we intend to make use of.

jsmarket says

Welcome to capitalism, folks; it's the unequal distribution of wealth for the successful rather than socialism's equal distribution of misery. Choose which path makes sense/cents to and for you and stay true to yourself in that choice. I choose capitalism.

This is very true!

For what it's worth, if anyone is in the Washington DC/Montgomery County, MD suburbs and needs a good agent...in Julie Roberts we found one.

Dunno' if her skills have declined in the ensuing 9.5 years, but she sure called it right in our case.

http://julieroberts.lnfre.com/AgentFeaturedListings.aspx

jsmarket,

Trying to understand your selling story.

Your asking price was less than your original expectations, so you were skeptical.
The final offer was 10% over asking, which was 8% higher than your giddy expectations.

So there was a 2% difference between your giddy estimates and the lowball skeptical price?

In general, is 6% too much?

Between tax payments on transfers, title costs, loan origination costs, and Realtor fees, there is a 10% cost to buy & sell a house.

Is that too much? If your down payment is 20% and you sell within 1 yr, you are looking at a 50% loss for a flat market. Let's say you are in a market with 2% inflation, you put 20% down and keep your house 7 years. Your house appreciates 15% (2% compounded annually). If your house was 100K, your $20K investment turned into $35K for a profit of $15K. You pay back 10% on transaction costs, which is $10K or 2/3 of your profit.

Now, your return on $20K is $5K over 7 years. That is about 3% annual appreciation.

So, 10% on the transaction of a leveraged investment over 7 years turns into 66% of your profits. The Realtor portion is 40%.

The question is, if you know the neighborhood, can drive around and see places that you would like to buy, and can see inventory and purchase prices for free over the internet. Would you give up 2/3 of your profit to have help picking a place?

If houses were cheap trinkets that you bought, 6% would be fine. If they are overpriced things that you can only buy with 4% borrowing costs, then a 6% transaction cost seems like a rip-off to me.

YesYNot says

jsmarket,

Trying to understand your selling story.

Your asking price was less than your original expectations, so you were skeptical.

The final offer was 10% over asking, which was 8% higher than your giddy expectations.

So there was a 2% difference between your giddy estimates and the lowball skeptical price?

Hi,

I'll be specific as it's probably easier to follow that way.

We thought the house was worth $500-$510K; Julie Roberts had us price it at $495K.

The three offers all came in at $490-$500K as I remember it.

It was then she went back to the buyers agents and told them they were all within 2% of one another (absolutely true) and to have your best offer available on Tuesday @ 5PM at her office.

On Tuesday, the 3 agents showed up with their offers and stories regarding their clients. Each buyer was very motivated to buy our home - it showed like a model with a lot of great touches - and one of them went to $550K to make sure they secured the home. my flicking memory of things had one other at $500K and another at $520 or $525K or so.

It happened to be the 'winning' couple had offered and lost a similarly constructed, old home just three doors down from us (we didn't know at the time) just a few weeks earlier. Our home was, frankly, nicer and they offered higher in recognition of that.

Julie Roberts, sales professional, was in our minds the reason we got an extra $40K for our home. Her acumen more than paid the 6% commissions involved off.

The couple that bought the house is still there according to an old neighbor...they put some real money into the house since (maybe $100K), but last time I looked it up Zillow had it at $775K. So, they may do okay on the sell, as well, as it turns out.

"...come back later and tell us when you become the SELLER ?"

Excellent Question!

A real estate developer/Realtor friend told me. Money is made in Real estate WHEN YOU BUY , not when you sell.!

For the most part this is true. Sellers are always selling for a reason. Donald trump calls these reasons the 5 D's of Real estate:

DEBT, DIVORCE, DISEASE, DISASTER, DEATH

These are the reasons most people sell. THESE reasons are MOTIVATIONS TO SELL NOW

When you as a buyers find a seller with EQUITY and ANY ONE of the reasons above are motives for the sale. You "may" have a BUYING opportunity...IF AND ONLY IF insiders such as Realtors don't beat you to the punch. One reason that many people get their real estate license is to get a discount on the sales transaction fees AND/OR to get inside BUYING information ONLY available to agents.

You see, most buyers ARE ALWAYS competing with REALTORS for the best buys. If a Realtor see a correctly priced property it is NOT illegal for them to buy it, even if they are representing YOU as a buyer on the same property. I call this INSIDER trading. In these cases the agent KNOWS everything about the competition: You as buyer! And they are NOT legally required to disclose the fact they are making an offer that will prevent YOU from having a winning offer.

investor90 says

You see, most buyers ARE ALWAYS competing with REALTORS for the best buys. If a Realtor see a correctly priced property it is NOT illegal for them to buy it, even if they are representing YOU as a buyer on the same property. I call this INSIDER trading. In these cases the agent KNOWS everything about the competition: You as buyer! And they are NOT legally required to disclose the fact they are making an offer that will prevent YOU from having a winning offer.

According to NAR which means it's probably inflated, the gross personal income for Realtors by hours worked: $49,000 (median for 40-59 hrs.) I bet they're just buying properties out from under everyone hand over fist. LOL.

What's the difference between a Realtor and a large pizza? The pizza can feed a family of three.

For those of you who believe the value of a REALTOR is opening doors and shuffling paper and lament about the payment, you lack a clue about the value a REALTOR brings to the transaction.
Consumers benefit from a brokerage fee system where it doesn't cost any more to hire the very best. Most consumers do not evaluate and chose an outstanding REALTOR that can and does add value to the transaction exceeding the cost.
Think of it as a wedding, you can to select having it at a Ritz Carlton or a McDonalds. They use similar ingredients; butter, sugar, flower are the same at both. If the cost was the same which would you choose. The service, presentation, experience and taste will be different. In brokerage services the cost is almost the same, but most consumers do not choose the Ritz Carlton service for the same price as McDonalds, who is at fault, is that most posting here blame the REALTOR.
As a REALTOR none of my clients object to my service all refer me to their friends, co-workers and associates. All understand the value I provide to their side of the transaction. I suppose most of you would complain about an $18 charge for a burger at the Ritz or Mc Donalds. It appears the majority of those posting would object to a $3 dollar burger charge at the Ritz while still eating the burger.
Next time you need heart surgery, brain surgery, a root canal, or are charged with a serious crime try to save money find the cheapest, least experienced professional, or go on line and figure out how to do it yourself or have your unemployed brother/sister/cousin assist you then go on line and complain about your outcome and cost.
Clearly experienced professional representation has a value and that value is greater than its cost. If that were not the case and you could sell a home as easy as trading stocks, ordering books, or ordering travel, the market would have eliminated the ability to charge for those services.
I am a REALTOR, I use REALTORS when I buy and sell, I am an Attorney, I hire an attorney when I litigate or need contracts drafted, when I travel, I hire a travel agent to plan my trip; I pay premium prices to eat at premium establishments, in seeking medical care I go to specialists, not a veterinarian to save money. My goal is always to maximize the value of the service by getting the best outcome, not the lowest price. The lowest priced provider seldom produces the highest quality outcome. Think government contracting seeking the lowest price bidder, not highest value return.
If you had a bad experience, hired a bad REALTOR, made poor real estate decisions look in the mirror you will see the source of your problem staring back at you. It is not an industry problem it is a personal problem.

Bwhahahahaha.

Look at the used house pimp's rationalizations and lies.

Bruce Ailion says

Next time you need heart surgery, brain surgery, a root canal, or are charged with a serious crime try to save money find the cheapest, least experienced professional, or go on line and figure out how to do it yourself or have your unemployed brother/sister/cousin assist you then go on line and complain about your outcome and cost.

This is absurd. Realtors are used house salesmen and are on par with used car salesmen. Comparing a Realtor to a brain surgeon is like comparing a car salesman to a brain surgeon. Sure there are good car salesmen and bad ones. Neither of these job paths have anything to do with surgery.

Bruce Ailion says

If you had a bad experience, hired a bad REALTOR, made poor real estate decisions look in the mirror you will see the source of your problem staring back at you.

My wife and I picked a crappy Realtor, because she was the fourth in a line of crappy windbags that we dealt with. We were very tempted to give up on the deal because of her. Was it our fault for going through with it? Maybe, but it would have been much harder to find a good Realtor than find the right house.

Bruce Ailion says

It is not an industry problem it is a personal problem.

It is an industry problem when > 90% of Realtors are absolute crap, because the industry incentives cause this problem. The light at the end of this tunnel is that picking a typical house is about as complicated as picking the best flight from Washington DC to Chicago. The Realtor for these deals should be about out of the picture at this point.

We can certainly hope that they will eventually go out of business. The optimist in me hopes that these walking impediments to easy house transactions will be replaced by something better.

To use your tortured restaurant analogy, using a Realtor is typically like paying $18 to eat a taco bell meat product that is 28% beef. There may be some super Realtor breed that can provide a Ruth's Chris steak for $18, but like playing the scratch off, you will likely end up with the taco.

Bruce Ailion says

Next time you need heart surgery, brain surgery, a root canal, or are charged with a serious crime try to save money find the cheapest, least experienced professional, or go on line and figure out how to do it yourself or have your unemployed

This struck me too. You cannot compare a Realtor to a surgeon. How long you had to go to school just to learn for your Realto's exam? Let's get real, you might have better people skills but there is nothing you are doing the typical person with average IQ cannot learn relatively quickly and do it on his own.
"Presentation..." what kind of presentation you are talking about? I don't need a presentation to show me the house. I saw enough of them to make my own decision. I only need from you an access to the house I want to see.
After assembling my first offer with a of Realtor, who BTW didn't know how to use a copy machine at her own office, I think I can handle the template and do it myself. What else do I need from you, negotiations, calling back and forth to the sales agent? Can't I handle it myself?
Most of these 'quality" agents don't even know how to handle todays’ market short sales or foreclosures. They are so used to regular sales that they don't want to deal with distressed properties transactions.

Calling a realtor "professional" is like putting a suit on a pig.

APOCALYPSEFUCK isFrank Sinatra says

A realtor is a financial sniper and a mercenary in the employ of himself and himself only, sweeping the countryside for opportunities to enrich himself on real estate transactions by any and all means excluding weapons play, not because of any moral objectives but because the other side may be armed.

The closest analogy to a Realtor®s point of view in real estate transactions would be a maternity hospital owned and operated by vampires. They know when the parents are due and will need their services. They know when the fresh load of untainted blood will arrive and they know where they can sink their teeth into the fresh victim.

I dunno if they're better described as financial arsonists or financial vampires.

lmao

You gotta wonder why one of these parasites would even bother writing anything on patrick.net no less reading. I mean seriously. Even their reputation on Main Street is lower than used car salesmen yet they come here as if we're the problem? Hardly. I'm stunned by their reticence or reluctance to even admit their lower than whale shit reputation. And that's just the first step. Getting one of these clowns to take a personal inventory would be a miracle in itself.

What clueless jack asses they are.

I'm surprised about the animosity towards realtors.

There's good and bad in any profession....and there are subjective likes and dislikes.

Take some time to discover the best for you - generally, anyone with less than 5 years experience should be avoided. If the agent has made it past that hump, they have the acumen to have built business despite the large obstacles in the way the first 5 years of business.

After that, it would seem to simply be a personality that suits your needs and wants.

For what it's worth, one of my best buds here in San Fran is a BIGGIE realtor....he's VERY successful (residential and commercial properties). He's a totally sharp, and unerringly honest, guy - with 4 great kids and wife. He set me up with his financier of choice and has given me choice advice the past few months while we've looked for a home. I cannot thank him enough for his input.

However, he's not our (buying) agent. Because I recognized my wife will be handling most of the house chatter and visits, we found one more suitable (for us). A totally buttoned up lady just down the street - unerringly positive and forthright - was our pick and I have to say it's been a fine choice throughout.

You have a choice - choice wisely in what's best for you - and take some measure of responsibility in the deal. If you're involved, it's your money (and or house), so make certain the end result is one that you are happy with.

jsmarket says

I'm surprised about the animosity towards realtors.

C'mon now. After the last 15 disastrous, corruption plagued years regarding housing sales and you're "surprised"? I got news for you bud...... the animosity isn't just here. It's everywhere.

You Lowlife says

jsmarket says

I'm surprised about the animosity towards realtors.

C'mon now. After the last 15 disastrous, corruption plagued years regarding housing sales and you're "surprised"? I got news for you bud...... the animosity isn't just here. It's everywhere.

I've found animosity often fills the void where responsibility should've been.

So, are realtors dramatically worse than they've ever been - or are people sloughing off their role and responsibility for any mess they may have been involved with?

If one has even 1% role in any decision, you could've changed the outcome. Instead, one whines about 'the others' poor habits. Social media such as Patrick.net, Facebook, and Blogosphere has made it easier than ever to shirk one's culpability.

It's your life - we all make good choices and bad ones - those that learn from both are all too rare.

jsmarket says

I've found animosity often fills the void where responsibility should've been.

Oh puleez.

NAR failed the public in every way possible. They're the problem, they've been the problem and based on their perpetual shirking of responsibility, they'll continue to be the problem.

Realtors are generally useless. They are currently enjoying a monopoly, so they can eke out a living while providing no real benefit.

Stating the above opinion isn't whining, displacing blame, or any crap like that. It is the pessimist that thinks we need a 6% Realtor tax to be able to buy and sell houses to each other. Any optimist would think that we can achieve such a simple task on our own much quicker than finding an honest Realtor.

jsmarket says

've found animosity often fills the void where responsibility should've been.

So, are realtors dramatically worse than they've ever been - or are people sloughing off their role and responsibility for any mess they may have been involved with?

I wouldn't take what anonymous posters say too seriously. If they post like a 13 year old they just might be, or you may just be entertaining an immature unemployed adult living in their parents garage. People who can't get the system to work for them tend to hate the system they can't figure out how to make work for them.

Every successful investor I've trained either has a Realtor they work closely with or have gotten licensed themselves. Having to rely on services like Redifin for your MLS is going to severely impair your competitiveness.

jsmarket says

I'm surprised about the animosity towards realtors.

Name one profession where every thing that professional says is 100% lies? It seems like you are clueless about the Realtor tactics. They are not even professionals. It is pathetic and down side of USA that here they make 6% of the sale price for doing nothing compared to other professionals where they have to work hard to earn.

bubblesitter says

Name one profession where every thing that professional says is 100% lies?

I can't name one. Except for realtor.

Clearly when your only tool is a hammer everything looks like a nail. If the only REALTORs you meet are inadequate perhaps the quality agents are unwilling to work with clients with perception and attitude issues.

One skill REALTORs develop is an ability to quickly assess the character of the people they represent and negotiate with. A average to good agent would pick up your attitude and quickly conclude, NEXT. The good agents have as many clients as they want. Those potential clients with ignorant, intolerant, critical, dishonest, biased, unreasonable attitudes and perceptions are thrown back. They are not keepers. Eventually these potential clients will find an agent to work with, the ones with little or no experience and who does not know better to avoid those who do not value their service.

We weren't passed on by any Realtor that we spoke to. We just could tell that all four agents were not trustworthy. We also offered within 3 weeks and closed in another 3 weeks after seeing 3 or 4 houses. So any astute agent would have known it would be pretty easy money. We are happy with our purchase, b/c we knew what we wanted. But we were very disappointed with the quality of the Realtors. Maybe next time we will have better luck.

Any advice on finding a good Realtor? Are there Realtor rating services? If some agents are so much better than the others, is there a way to see who got ripped off by whom? The good agents should be raking the bad ones over the coals, huh?

ELC, is there some reason that you think Redfin's data is lacking? Redfin had all of the same properties available through the Realtor's MLS data, and updated data within two hours when our house changed status. What does a Realtor offer that Redfin doesn't?

CBM says

his response is to inform those who may really care about some facts.

"Facts"? like your "integrity" when NAR released false data every single month of the year for 5 years running? That's a fact and the truth. We know all about your "facts". Your problem is you conflate your "facts" with truth and then pass it off as truth. And of course the public doesn't expect you people to know the difference so I'll explain it to you. A fact allows you to be "right". However, being "right" and the truth are two different things in that you can be "right" irrespective of the truth. And getting to the truth is always a bumpy painful process that you people seem to do anything to avoid.

CBM says

A REALTOR must abide by an oath to follow the Code of Ethics and that holds us to a higher standard

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

We know all about your voluntary code of ethics.

It's hilarious when someone invokes the "code of ethics" when desperately attempting to defend these shysters.

CBM says

Nobody forces anyone to use a REALTOR

Really? Another lame, worn out excuse by you creeps? And how many times will you continue to mis-use this false assertion? The truth is MLS is a monopoly.

What a seething shitpot of jackasses you people are.

APOCALYPSEFUCK isFrank Sinatra says

The Realtor® point of view is always - 'assholes, it's their fault for believing what they're told and the wife deserved to see her husband blow his brains out in front of her. Better luck next life. Hahahahahahahahaha!'

Exactly.

How many millions of lives have these people destroyed with their antics?

What a joke. Most of you clowns don't know the difference between shit and shineola. I mean really, pull your head out of your ass...what a bunch of under-educated windbags. If you ever want to do your own Real Estate transaction I welcome you...and I hope I'm the agent on the other end. You'd realize the value of an agent in a hurry. Most of you have an attention span of less than three minutes and couldn't negotiate a Real Estate transaction from start to finish if your life depended on it. You know what they say....Oh' wait, you don't know what they say do you.

If you prefer leaving a comment on this post, let it be known it will be for you and you only....as I will NOT be back to this waste of time website anytime soon.
Sincerely,

GoFuckYourself
REALTOR

Because, as one Realtor told me, they like people. That's why they are in the business.