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Greatest I am says

The bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or sin.

Can you please point me to this scripture? I am not familiar with this verse.

frankbshouse says

was crucified from the foundations of the Earth

http://bible.cc/revelation/13-8.htm

Regards
DL

Thank you for providing the verse at Revelation. Reading over the different translations in the link you provided, it seems the most common way to translate this verse is using the terms “founding of the world” instead of using the word “Earth”. The English word ‘world’ is used in the Greek Scriptures to translate the Greek work ‘ko’smos’. “World” can have different meanings but it never refers to the literal Earth when used in the Greek Scriptures. It can be used to mean mankind as a whole, the conditions around a person, or the group of humans that are God’s servants. So one key to understanding this verse is that when it states ‘founding of the world’ it is referring to the ‘founding of mankind’.

The second key is understanding the word “founding.” When translated in Greek “founding” literally means “throwing down of seed.” Adam and Eve had not produced offspring prior to their disobedience to God. Thus, no “throwing down of seed” had occurred yet. It was immediately following their rebellion that they produced children. Interestingly and in harmony with Rev 13:8, it was after the rebellion also when God decreed that Jesus would come to Earth to redeem mankind at Gen 3:14,15 (the seed). Thus when Revelation Rev 13:18 states that Jesus ‘was slaughter from the founding of the world’ it is referring to God’s plan to rectify man’s sin as recorded at Gen 3:14, 15. We can understand from these verses then that God did predestine Adam and Even to sin and for Jesus to give his life in sacrifice.

frankbshouse says

We can understand from these verses then that God did predestine Adam and Even to sin and for Jesus to give his life in sacrifice.

Sorry, I mean God did not predestine....

Then you ignore scriptures.

Whether he predestined or not, does not take away the fact that God promoted and planed the needless murder of his own son and gave man the insane notion that the innocent should be punished and not the guilty.

Quite a piss poor notion and law that. Immoral to boot.

Also anti-scripture and logic.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psalm 49:7

None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

Thomas Paine, in Age of Reason, wrote:
If I owe a person money, and cannot pay him, and he threatens to put me in prison, another person can take the debt upon himself, and pay it for me. But if I have committed a crime, every circumstance of the case is changed. Moral justice cannot take the innocent for the guilty even if the innocent would offer itself. To suppose justice to do this, is to destroy the principle of its existence, which is the thing itself. It is then no longer justice. It is indiscriminate revenge.

This single reflection will show that the doctrine of redemption is founded on a mere pecuniary idea corresponding to that of a debt which another person might pay; and as this pecuniary idea corresponds again with the system of second redemptions, obtained through the means of money given to the church for pardons, the probability is that the same persons fabricated both the one and the other of those theories; and that, in truth, there is no such thing as redemption; that it is fabulous; and that man stands in the same relative condition with his Maker he ever did stand, since man existed; and that it is his greatest consolation to think so.
Emphasis mine.

So not only is the killing of an innocent man immoral, but it shows that the redemption allegory being used is that of a financial debt. Which is an interesting parallel to the practice of purchasing 'pardons'.

[It is] not good that the man should be alone ; I will make him an help meet for him. (Gen. 2:18) KJV Story book

Free will to me is the ability to make a choice without coercion.
A choice made while under coercion, (especially under threat of pain and suffering), is not a freely made choice, ergo it is not free will. In fact there is a name for it; it's called extortion and it is a criminal offense precisely for the reason that it is not a free choice but a forced one.

"Extortion (also called shakedown, outwresting, and exaction) is a criminal offence which occurs when a person unlawfully obtains either money, property or services from a person(s), entity, or institution, through coercion. Refraining from doing harm is sometimes euphemistically called protection. Extortion is commonly practiced by organized crime groups. The actual obtainment of money or property is not required to commit the offense. Making a threat of violence which refers to a requirement of a payment of money or property to halt future violence is sufficient to commit the offense." Wikipedia

"Test all things"
1 Thessalonians. 5:21

No noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a so called son just to prove it's benevolence.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am says

Whether he predestined or not, does not take away the fact that God promoted and planed the needless murder of his own son and gave man the insane notion that the innocent should be punished and not the guilty.

If you would be so kind as to review my previous posts from our other discussion, I have explained why Jesus death was not needless. Adam was perfect but lost perfection. The only way to balance justice and refute the Devils claims that man could not be faithful was for a human to prove faithful to death. God delighted, not in seeing his Son suffer, but in observing Jesus’ absolute faithfulness to the very death. We should share God’s delight, recognizing all that Jesus did to prove Satan a liar and sanctify God’s name, thus vindicating the rightfulness of His sovereignty.
Further, Jesus even taught his suffering was required. At Mark 8:31-33 it states "Also, he started teaching them that the Son of man must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by the older men and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and rise three days later. 32 Indeed, with outspokenness he was making that statement. But Peter took him aside and started rebuking him. 33 He turned, looked at his disciples and rebuked Peter, and said: “Get behind me, Satan, because you think, not God’s thoughts, but those of men.”"
Yes Peter didn't understand why Jesus had to suffer such a fate and Jesus corrected him and told him his thinking was flawed.

Finally, God didn’t murder his Son like you say. Jesus was murdered by Satan and his followers. Yes, God knew this would happen, that is why when he uttered the prophecy at Gen 3:14,15 that Satan’s seed would bruise the woman’s seed (Jesus) in the heal, he was referring to Jesus being murdered. However to state that God murdered his Son is incorrect. Satan is the one who raised all these issues. He is the one to blame, not God. Satan said man would ‘curse God to his very face’ when facing adversity. (Job 1:11) Thus the challenge had been laid, that God’s creation only served him for what they could get and not out of obedience. Thus, God allowed Satan to put Jesus to death, to prove that God's servants would and could remain faithful, but God did not murder Jesus. God was loving enough to sacrifice his only begotten Son to give you and me a chance at obtaining perfection and everlasting life again.

Greatest I am says

Also anti-scripture and logic.

It’s quite logical when you reason on it. If God just covered over or didn't bother with punishing Adam and Eve wouldn't it have proved Satan's point right, that no one would serve God because they wanted to, only because they had to? Satan's brothers, the angels, were watching, what would they have thought if God just swept everything under the rug so to speak?
So Adam and Eve lost perfection and everlasting life. There was absolutely no way for the human race to redeem themselves. No punishment, penalty, gift, anything they could present to rectify their sin. However, God designed a way for humans to be redeemed which would satisfy his justice. A perfect man would come to Earth to prove faithful, refute the Devils claims and cover over Adam's original sin.

As far as being anti-scripture, we need to look more closely at the scriptures you quoted and their context.

Greatest I am says

Psalm 49:7

The inspired psalmist said: “Not one of them can by any means redeem even a brother, nor give to God a ransom for him . . . that he should still live forever and not see the pit.” (Ps. 49:7-9) This Scripture helps us to see that man did not have the ability to give God a ransom for their life because humans do not possess what Adam lost, perfection. Therefore, help had to come from outside the human race. God sent his Son as a perfect human. Since no human can produce perfect offspring, this is why the Psalm 49:7 states that we cannot give ourselves as ransom for another, even our brother. God had to provide the ransom because humans had no way to fix the situation. This scripture helps us see we needed a redeemer it is contradicting the ransom provision.

Greatest I am says

Ezekiel 18:20

This scripture has nothing to do with the ransom. It is merely stating each individual is judged according to his ways. Further, you can't even apply this scripture to Jesus because he is 'sinless'.

Greatest I am says

No noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a so called son just to prove it's benevolence.

Please reread my posts which will give you a better understanding of why Jesus had to suffer and die.

Greatest I am says

If you had God’s power to set the conditions for atonement, would you step up yourself or would you send your child to die?

I mentioned this in my other post. How could God answer the claims of Satan by coming to earth himself? He would prove faithful to himself? Only a servant of God could answer the Devil's claims. God chose his Son to accomplish this task because he knew Jesus would not only want to vindicate God's name but that he would be faithful in doing so.

If your Catholic it demands you sacrifice. If your Christian you say Jesus is the sacrifice. Why did it take Christianty so long to come up with that solution? Either way your asked to sacrifice and you know thats true. You do it by becoming ignorant. Your a man. If you stifle your sense thats not the smartest thing on the earth for a man to do. Simply put. I'm not just talking sexually. I'm talking about enjoying the earth. God put you here for a purpose. Thats not the case. Your special to no one really except maybe parents and family and you. See no ones coming to help guy your a man. You lose it all see who shows up. Not Jesus no ones going to help. See how your friends scatter to. Jesus is simply a twist on the Abraham story. With Abraham the "curse" was lifted. See curse. Blessed whole earth got. What your reading is a contrived story hell bent on robbing you of everything thats yours. When you stop and think duh. All these motels have bibles. You might want to stop and think hey wonder if thats in the loan agreement? This is a big fucking coincidence. All hotel and motel owners agree to it dosen't matter what they are. The people that printed that fucking bible are loan sharks. The same ones that have your county 40 years past due and invading everything they can for what they want in raw material. So they can bring it back and let you work on it. You people are in debt up to your ass. So debt slave. Forced slave whats the difference both have your labor. One makes you the other one lets you labor to pay your debt off.

This monetary system is nothing but lending and loans everything flows back up loan mountain. Deal is they don't care about paper what they want is your labor and everyone elses working on their assets in one way or another. Cause if they don't get you directly they get you indirectly with a loan to someone else. Your boss may owe big he drives you 3 times as hard to get his debt paid off.

Israel has the same monetary system. Its a fact.

So let them take your cloak and they will sure take you pants. He wants you to walk a mile with him. Just bet its going to be 20 miles you get to go. A flat panel monitor is 35 bucks to make its nothing but a circut board and sells to you for 800 then put that on a revolver your back at work. Dosen't matter if its food, cable, internet or power. They are going to make sure you owe. So you swallowed the gnat pal and forgot to look at the elephant.. Don't bow your head and give me any of this just believe crap if you do. You just threw all your sense away if you did and thats not smart. Think I'm picking on you any nitwit that believes in government is just as shucked. People that believe in government are just as delusional as people that believe in religion. Use your head.

The bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings .

patrickbrown says

The bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings .

Yes. Quite sick that God.
And some like frankbshouse think it a good moral idea for us to profit from God taking bribes and ransoms of dead humans.

I would not trust a God I could not bribe either. LOL.

Regards
DL

Lots of 'brave' talk here about rejecting God BUT only a fool rejects God when God both forgives and judges sin. It comes down to two things that you have to believe in order to live:
1. God exists and hates sin. Sin came about because of Adams and Eves sin. Sin will never be in Gods presense. Since all were born in sin because of Adam and Eve, by default we are all enemies of God.
2. God gave us His Word to show us how to be redeemed from the curse of sin, which is death. Not just physical death, this is spiritual death and eternal separation from God at death for those whose sins are not forgiven by Christ.

Believe or not, but you will be judged by your belief in Christ the instant you die. Most of you reading this will go to hell because inspite of hearing the truth, you hate God.

I posted this as im hoping that this registers with someone, who finds repentance from sin and salvation in Christ, while there is yet time.

"Most of you reading this will go to hell because inspite of hearing the truth, you hate God."

Will I go to hell if I hate idiots like you who post such utter crap?

rofl people still believe this hocus pocus crap. If you made this shit up today you'd be locked up in the looney bin.

News flash: If there actually is a god, there is a 0% chance man actually understands and has described it accurately. The bible was written by barbarians who scientifically didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground. But yeah, it's an accurate depiction of reality.

The people who are refuting the OP seem to be using Adam and Eve and the sin in their discussion

Well,if they are thinking in those lines..and believe in it,then a 2 year old is more rational in my opinion

Adam and Eve is just a story thats there. It's not in original Hebrew writtings and is part of another religions writing again that bible is pieced together. A little of it even has some zoro roaster in it. Here. I was able to read spent years in the second largest theological library in the world. 4 huge floors stacked with nothing but "theology" mostly Christians some other religions to. Writings dating back from the 1300s. I found the place highly interesting and took the opportunity to utilize it to further my discussions with Fred who is now a doctor and a surgeon. He went to that University. I liked partying with the other pre-med students. Their company which I kept for that time was nothing but smart on my part and very interesting.

What you take for granted. When seen in very clear dissemination not with belief. It is then seen as very clear that the bible is a patchwork of several different semetic peoples writings. Not just Luddites which would glean to zoro roaster lol. There were reasons for the similar writings. Then some not so similar to the Hebrew religion that were of the individual semetic peoples. The reasons the Catholic church put all of these writings together were to please all of those peoples. The Catholic church until this day trys to be all things to all people. Whats written dosen't matter its the fact that you believe thats Catholic foundation. The Catholic church saw this as a good way to make all of those people into the Roman empire. It was more of an inclusion of everyone. Which the Catholic church believes in highly. Theres was the Religion of all peoples of whom the Roman empire had many different peoples. Taking a little of the relgion of each people fitting it to there own. Which of course they did even before Christianity. Then later the decsion was made for Christianty by the emperor based on the passivity of its followers. To be exact. Christianty came out of Greece. It was the Grecians attempt to make the Hebrew people passive who had given them so much trouble after their conquest. That was the first attempt although very small at Christianty. It failed however it actually worked in Greece to some degree. The decision was made out of Rome in about 700ad way after the Hebrews were out of the Roman empire and Israel. The Greek Orthodox were similarly the original inventors and followers of Christianty. It was hard of course for the Grecians to use the City State method of division on such a small place as Israel. The people were to close and basically a family and of course a religion. Greek city state division was nessesary because its people are highly caustic and prone to riot and overthrow. Religion was a science that came out of something close to university. The word university in itself has to do with having a way to make people live together. You take a look at OWS. Which is nothing but University student led. Those people who are the leaders of that concentrate on their "futures". Their ambitions within the system. The possiblity of "leadership" within that system at some point in a variety of careers. Politics, corporate etc. Such are people well aware that only the basics are taught at the lower levels of "education". Many of these are very intensely aware of the Greek "educational" system and its purpose. Some are very, very skilled in political division which they have learned from their parents. Non-violence is a simple enough concept which has been developed through a variety of stories. Its in keeping with Grecian city-state concept. Political division. The passivity of religion. Its basically the sociological managment of people.

It's very important to remember a lot of what you believe,think,understand is "developed" through story.

laughnow says

I posted this as im hoping that this registers with someone, who finds repentance from sin and salvation in Christ, while there is yet time.

Thanks for the threat. You follow your God well.
You are as much of a tyrant as your pathetic son murdering God.

Regards
DL

ArtimusMaxtor

Developed yes. By politicians who chose a God of war.

http://www.WD0eSqFJ7J4

Regards
DL

A big fat "ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ"

Greatest I am says

Developed yes. By politicians who chose a God of war.

Actually they are trying to develp the story of Constantine from that point leaving everything wide open for the Apocolypse. Which Catholics despise yet they leave it around. Christians adore. They apocolypse theme is keyed off of in both religions of course. In some ways its backround. However the oddball in this is the nuclear. Which eludes to science. That of course has its as one of its themes the middle east. It leaves Christians with a great deal of confusion. Except for one fact. The camps near WW2. Then a Jewish man discovering the bomb. Then re-establishment. Which leaves everyone with a lot of questions waiting for the big one.

Figure closer to 700 AD with the story developed from there. That would put it closer to a leveling off of the Roman Empire. Then followed by a decline then an ascendency. Rome was finished about 900 AD.

Thanks for this.

Regards
DL

patrickbrown says

The bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings .

Please see post 3 for an answer to this.

CrazyMan says

rofl people still believe this hocus pocus crap...The bible was written by barbarians who scientifically didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

Repubthug says

Well,if they are thinking in those lines..and believe in it,then a 2 year old is more rational in my opinion.

ArtimusMaxtor says

It is then seen as very clear that the bible is a patchwork of several different semetic peoples writings.

I appreciate the candid comments. I realize it is unpopular to believe in Biblical accounts. I originally replied to help 'Greatest Am I' see their understanding of Rev 13:8 is incorrect. However, it is somewhat pointless to discuss doctrine when it is clear most commenting here don't believe in Biblical accounts. It seems it would be more productive to discuss the evidence of the Bible being inspired.

I have studied the Scriptures for many years and feel they are inspired. I see comments often about the Bible not being scientifically accurate, but have yet to actually see a true problem in what the Bible says. Maybe someone can help me understand how Bible writers would have known the following:

The earth is suspended in space. Job 26:7, stated about 1613 B.C.E.

The earth is round. Isaiah 40:22, written about 732 B.C.E.

Water moves in a cycle. Ecclesiastes 1:7, written before 1,000 B.C.E.

The universe is governed by laws. Jeremiah 33:25, written before 580 B.C.E.

I can list some more, but I thought I would post these first.

And and on a side note:

pazuzu says

Will I go to hell if I hate idiots like you who post such utter crap?

Greatest I am says

Thanks for the threat.

Not to worry, (which I know you are not), you aren't going to a burning hell. The Bible doesn't actually teach this. - Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6

Quite the inspiration. To write of a God not worth much of anything in terms of morals. A genocidal son murderer. Inspired.

Inspired to show his faults I guess.

Regards
DL