patrick.net

I agree.
Its just stuff. experiences are what is important

gardener1 says

People, you have been philosophically and financially fleeced.

In California, New York City, DC, and Boston that is quite true.

In most other places, if you have a secure job and plan to stay put for 10 years, you *might* be better off buying a small house instead of renting.

See Patrick's "House Value Calculator" above.

Can you rent weed?

Didn't think so

Put that rented bunch of nothing,,,in your pipe and pretend to smoke it. Let me know how you make out

gardener1 says

What if more people like me stop buying losing propositions like real estate; we rent, we quit driving around in money sucking cars (we take the bus) we completely opt out of the ownership system?~(I have)~where does that land all of your speculative economic theories?

Rent prices increase dramatically. Companies fold and more jobs are lost. Basically the whole economy would fall apart.

gardener1 says

You quaintly think there aren't more people like me? People who realize that owning stuff is indentured servitude?

I guess I could rent forever, eat ramen, cut my cable and internet, and go straight home after work...just exist, as you put it. They key is to find a healthy balance; you can still spend money, even buy things (gasp), and still not be an indentured servant. I work to live, not live to work. For some people, buying a home is the right decision for them, you just have to be smart about it. I am still waiting to own until it is right for me.

Slightly off topic, but the vast majority of the elderly "just exists" because they saved up no money. That's a sad way to live the next 20-30 years, dirt poor, living in pain, watching QVC. If I were president I'd bring back Kevorkian methods so that the elderly could spend freely until they run out, then do themselves in instead of being a vegetable in a home waiting for death.

StoutFiles says

If I were president I'd bring back Kevorkian methods so that the elderly could spend freely until they run out, then do themselves in instead of being a vegetable in a home waiting for death.

You'd have Death Panels(tm)?

wthrfrk80 says

You'd have Death Panels(tm)?

In the beginning I'd just give them the option. Live in pain on a rocker for 20 years or see the world and have a blast for 2, then be able to say goodbye to all your loved ones and have a pain free death? I bet a good amount would take the offer.

StoutFiles says

In the beginning I'd just give them the option. Live in pain on a rocker for 20 years or see the world and have a blast for 2, then be able to say goodbye to all your loved ones and have a pain free death? I bet a good amount would take the offer.

http://www.theonion.com/video/social-security-reform-bill-encourages-americans-t,21006/

this is getting creepy... I don't mind living with less, but come on Stout... there is something called friendship... something called family... things that are priceless.

going off on a mini elderly dissertation... not going there... bad juju...... I'm out....

Let the elderly grow their own weed, and smoke it. They will be content living forever. I know its not as awesome as being doped up on a litany of pharmaceuticals and locked away in a prison errrr I mean nursing home, but if I was old, id opt for that

Gardening is fun

Have you ever grown weed, high on weed?

lisalisa says

this is getting creepy... I don't mind living with less, but come on Stout... there is something called friendship... something called family... things that are priceless.

I love my cat but when it gets too old I do the humane thing and put it down. It's always sad but it's the right thing to do.

For some reason with humans it's incredibly taboo to consider. All I'm saying is when I'm old and have X dollars, I'd rather not try to spread that out over an unknown amount of years, because it means I'm not able to splurge not knowing how long my money needs to last. This is all assuming I don't become a nursing home vegetable, watching TV and hoping my kids and grandkids come visit me this week. For many people, retirement could be their one chance to do all the things in life they never got to do...and it only works if they don't have to make their money last for an unknown amount of time.

No, I'd much prefer to live it up in retirement until I'm all cashed out while I'm stil mobile and my mind is still strong, then leave the world in a humane way. I should at least have the option, but no, society dictates that I sit around and penny pinch while my mind decays.

StoutFiles says

No, I'd much prefer to live it up in retirement until I'm all cashed out while I'm stil mobile and my mind is still strong, then leave the world in a humane way. I should at least have the option, but no, society dictates that I sit around and penny pinch while my mind decays.

Trying to change the world is lame, won't happen.

But your point about not owning shit, I'm right there with you. Within the past year I've literally purged my life of every consumable good that I haven't used regularly in the last year, sold it all or gave it away. Somehow we just acquire all this stupid shit and never throw it out. Then I stopped buying stuff, everything unless I really need it. There are no more days of "shopping" where I roam the mall or stores looking aimlessly for shit to buy. And if you think about it that is just stupid anyways, "shopping." You should only purchase things that you have a need for and seek out the best quality on price.

I've cancelled cable TV, don't pay for any cellphone or internet service, have a company car, and live on a lake which is essentially a free vacation every weekend in the summer. The clarity and freedom from not owning shit is amazing. In the end, that jetski or that nice car or that piece of property you own, you don't really own it. Because you need to pay for it, (usually in monthly installments) which means you need to work to pay for it, and you have to insure it, worry about maintaining it, spend your weekend on its upkeep...Your shit owns you.

Rent4Ever says

don't pay for any cellphone or internet service

How are you on this forum? Do you ride your bike to the library? Or do you goof off at work?

StoutFiles says

How are you on this forum? Do you ride your bike to the library? Or do you goof off at work?

Company pays for everything at my house.

errc says

Gardening is fun
Have you ever grown weed, high on weed?

I didn't know it was possible to grow Twinkies in my garden.

You sound like me when my credit was shit.

We Americans for too long have been spending too much money on things we don't need. I too do not plan on buying anything I don't have to.

gardener1 says

He was flabbergasted. Apparently no other client had ever come into his office without big plans for starting a business overseas and buying a place and making it big, big, bigger.

Of course no other client has ever walked into his office and said what you said since those people typically stay home and stay poor. Why would anyone walk into a financial planners office and tell them, "hey, I don't need your service because I don't plan to spend any money on buying anything." That's like me walking into Burger King and telling them I don't want their burger or anything else they are offering. Instead I want them to tell me how long I should space out my sandwich (that my aunt made me) so it can last me through the day.

I need people like you to pay $2500 rent every month so I can cover my $1200 mortgage on my rental property.

But hey, I can see the appeal in your simple-living philosophy. I guess I just hope that I have money rolling in after retirement and not out like you will be. Maybe I'll have something to pass on to my kids and make things a little easier for them when I am gone.

And the part about your company paying for things... kind of weakens your argument, eh? Finally, before I am sold that you really are convinced of what you are preaching, give us your credit score. Do you really believe what you are saying or do you have no choice but to believe what you are saying?

BayArea says

I need people like you to pay $2500 rent every month so I can cover my $1200 mortgage on my rental property. Understand?

Do you have a negative-amortization mortgage?

How else are you paying only $1200 on a $700,000+ property?

At today's interest rate of 3.5% and 25% down, a $1200 mortgage gets you a $375,000 house. It's not uncommon in parts of the Bay Area to have that level of house rent out for $2500.

That's an 8% annual rent:price ratio...

Why are you so surprised?

Rent4Ever says

Company pays for everything at my house.

If your company pays for everything useful, then of course you dont need to buy anything. Understand that most people need internet and have to pay for it, or need a car and have to buy one.

BayArea says

Why are you so surprised?

Because in the Bay Area, houses are going for $700,000, not $375,000.

So I guess the 15 million storage units packed full of crap, won't be in high demand anymore?

Sike! People love buying crap. Peruse an online dating service for a minute, every girls primary interest is shopping. And every guys primary interest is getting the girl. So the guy falls trap into the mindset that if only he buys more stuff, she will dig the cut of his jib, and then they can buy more stuff together

Disclaimer:

Long

Landfills
Trash services
Storage units

It is true that sometimes it's fun to stop buying stuff. I remember a few guys would call them "M.O.'s"=Material Objects.
If you saved and invested instead of succumbing to your whims and desires you will be better off in the future.
One time when loading our surfboards into my Toyota truck my female companion made some crack about it, and I was pissed off. "I made a bunch of dough with this funky truck, and I can show you the money now." She shut up.
You can buy anything you need on Craigslist today. I wanted another camera for traveling and someone sold a great little Sony with a Zeiss lens for $15. Works great and fits in my pocket the size of a deck of cards.
"Money talks, bullshit walks." I don't really know what this means but I like it.
Most people love to acquire stuff, particularly ladies with clothes, shoes and other stuff like iPhones etc.
I walked the Santa Cruz boardwalk on the 4th and it was interesting to see the teenagers who have probably nothing fooling around with their iPhones. It reminded me of those pictures of chimps playing with shiny objects.
I only want a few things in the future, a better truck, a boat to fish and scuba dive from, and a sailboat. They have small versions of both.
You must make a delicate balance. Give the impression to women that you are very "responsible" with your money and make investments but that you would never deny yourself something you wanted (or by extension, would like to buy for a woman).
Buy stocks and make a portion of the profit of those companies that are getting rich from the consumers around the world who won't stop consuming.

I think that technically we do have given items that certainly outlive people. Houses don't automatically fall apart after 80 years. Of course they do require money for upkeep.

I wouldn't say that renting for everything would be a balance but the concept of sharing certainly is getting stronger.
http://consumerist.com/2010/01/rent-out-your-household-items-for-fun-and-profit.html
http://us.zilok.com/

I've seen book trading services, dvd trading services, men's ties, kid toys and the list goes on and on. If people don't have money for new then they'll buy used or simply start trading.

P2P as a concept makes people think about illegal file trading..but few thought about it in actual physical products. Microlending filled the gap of smaller businesses and larger banks. Likewise this would be like Rent a Center but on a smaller scale.

I would recommend to the OP to move to the hispanic part of town asap, then learn to speak spanish, only speak spanish and nothing else everywhere for a year. Then you might do ok in south america. But they think white skin=rich so good luck.

ptiemann says

wthrfrk80 says

BayArea says

Why are you so surprised?

Because in the Bay Area, houses are going for $700,000, not $375,000.

San Jose has lots of houses under $400k. You can even buy below $300k and still fetch $2000 rent.

You are right, but there's a lot of gangbangers in those hoods.

Wow, people are willing to pay $2000/month to live in the hood with the gangstas?

That's f***ing crazy.

How much is the rent in a "safe" area?

I know these are rhetorical questions. I get that, and they are valid ones.

First, if you want to get all tin-foil-hat like, an owner doesn't "own" anything, they are just renting the land from the government which allows them to maintain title in exchange for property taxes.

Second, if everyone rents, we simply switch over to situations similar to New York City. Rents will go up to what the market will bear. In an extreme situation, we convert to a European style society with families staying in the same rental property for decades.

If what you are really asking is what happens if we stop being a consumerist society, well, let me know when you find out. I agree with Bob Kunstler (author of the Long Emergency and World Made By Hand) that it won't be pretty. Right or wrong, the U.S. (and California in particular) has arranged its values around the "consumer" lifestyle. If that is no longer a viable option, lots of people will be very frustrated.

ptiemann says

San Jose has lots of houses under $400k. You can even buy below $300k and still fetch $2000 rent.

Reason enough not to live in CA.

StoutFiles says

If your company pays for everything useful, then of course you dont need to buy anything. Understand that most people need internet and have to pay for it, or need a car and have to buy one.

No one needs a brand new Acura, Lexus, BMW, or worse yet needs to lease one or 300 cable TV channels ($100/mo), or the newest cellphone and data plan(100/mo). Buy a 3 year old honda or toyota, keep it for 12 years and come out Tens of thousands ahead. Only get basic cable, only get a basic cellphone. Save 150 bucks a month forever on those expenses, added to your vehicle decision alone will save you at least 70K+ over just 10 years. It's really not that difficult. Is having a luxury car, watching cartoon network and having some games on your phone really worth 70k after just 10 years? What about after 30 years?

People have more money now in this country than we've ever had, yet we find stupid things to spend it on.

wthrfrk80 says

BayArea says

Why are you so surprised?

Because in the Bay Area, houses are going for $700,000, not $375,000.

There are lots of 3/2 ranch houses in Sunnyvale selling for under $500K in neighborhoods where 2-bedroom apartments rent for $2100-$2900/month.

Some have broken $400K.

There are also parts of Menlo Park where the same 1950s houses (but with "updated" floors, kitchen, and bathrooms) sell for $1.2-$1.5M

DaleyCenterRegular says

First, if you want to get all tin-foil-hat like, an owner doesn't "own" anything, they are just renting the land from the government which allows them to maintain title in exchange for property taxes.

Very true. With or without the tinfoil hat.

DaleyCenterRegular says

Bob Kunstler (author of the Long Emergency and World Made By Hand) that it won't be pretty. Right or wrong, the U.S. (and California in particular) has arranged its values around the "consumer" lifestyle.

You mean Jim Kunstler? He's a very entertaining guy, even if many of his views are "out there."

wthrfrk80 says

Because in the Bay Area, houses are going for $700,000, not $375,000.

I don't know what to say to this so I am going to walk away really slowly but I will leave you with this median home price list (not everyone living in the Bay Area lives in SF or Marin County):

County May-12
Alameda County $353,500
Contra Costa County $295,000
Marin County $627,000
San Francisco County $700,000
San Mateo County $576,500
Santa Clara County $529,000
Solano County $190,000

dublin hillz says

You are right, but there's a lot of gangbangers in those hoods.

This conservative rental investment argument comes up time and time again. It's partly valid, but at the same time nobody says that you can't be a little selective about who you rent the property out to and you won't be living there. If you want the highest rent to price ratios, then yes, you have to sacrifice a bit on the quality of the neighborhood. I'm ok with that, of course there is a threshold.

drew_eckhardt says

There are lots of 3/2 ranch houses in Sunnyvale selling for under $500K in neighborhoods where 2-bedroom apartments rent for $2100-$2900/month.

Keep in mind that Sunnyvale isn't exactly topping the charts in the rent:price department either.

wthrfrk80 says

Wow, people are willing to pay $2000/month to live in the hood with the gangstas?

That's f***ing crazy.

How much is the rent in a "safe" area?

In San Jose, for a SFH 3/2 rental in a semi-safe area at least $3200.

In Switzerland they are doing quite well and many people rent.
Anyone who owns anything in China for example is actually just borrowing it, there is no system for owning private land in China.
Of course, rich Chinese cover their bets and buy in California and Vancouver, BC.
A rich guy always wants to buy something. A poor guy has to rent. A guy with a few more bucks tries to imitate the rich guy and mortgages his life to buy. A guy who has some money but doesn't care about any of the nonsense may rent or buy, but his desire for freedom makes him tend to rent.
James Bond rented his London apartment, although he seemed to always have plenty of dough from his casino winnings. Go figure.
The Bay Area is becoming popular with 1. asians 2. hispanics 3. yuppies who all want familes and therefore want to buy houses.
There is always something to be said for cash or liquid investments. A pretty young woman with a job, owns a big house in San Pedro N.L. Mexico (highest GDP of any latin city) has no cash or investments.
So, she is showing extreme interest in me and my liquid assets (no pun intended).

clambo says

The Bay Area is becoming popular with 1. asians 2. hispanics 3. yuppies who all want familes and therefore want to buy houses.

Asians and Hispanics wanting families? This looks like a great spot for Melinda Gates to hand out condoms.

BayArea says

I don't know what to say to this so I am going to walk away really slowly but I will leave you with this median home price list (not everyone living in the Bay Area lives in SF or Marin County):
County May-12
Alameda County $353,500
Contra Costa County $295,000
Marin County $627,000
San Francisco County $700,000
San Mateo County $576,500
Santa Clara County $529,000
Solano County $190,000

I didn't realize the prices were so much cheaper further out. What are the median rents in those same areas? Your example of $375k is pretty close to Alameda, what's the median rent there?

dublin hillz says

In San Jose, for a SFH 3/2 rental in a semi-safe area at least $3200.

My goodness, where do you people get the money to pay for that? And it's only "semi-safe."

I have a "good" job and that would eat up almost my entire paycheck after taxes! I'd have to moonlight at the Kwik-E-Mart just to buy food.

wthrfrk80 says

I didn't realize the prices were so much cheaper further out. What are the median rents in those same areas? Your example of $375k is pretty close to Alameda, what's the median rent there?

By further out I assume you mean further out from SF county? If so, Contra Costa and Alameda Counties are not really far out at all... just across the bridge. Marin County is across a different bridge.

As you can see, San Mateo, Marin, Alameda, and Contra Costa Counties all surround SF closely and vary in price significantly. I myself live in Alameda County and work in Contra Costa County (Engineer). My real estate playground is Contra Costa County however, as I can't afford to play in other counties within the Bay Area and not interested in venturing outside of the Bay Area. In fact, looking at that map, there's probably a strong argument that most of Solano, Napa, Sonoma, and Santa Clara Counties aren't even part of the Bay Area.

I got rid of my stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/MvgN5gCuLac