patrick.net

Cloud says

For the record an atheist activist uses the word "love" but can not hand it over to me.

You're looking for some man love? Surely there are other forums for that.

Cloud says

Good answer Big. Says more about you than me.

I get a big kick out of liberals who are so open to gays, they use the accusation of homo sexually as an insult.

Wind your neck back in. You're the one who keeps asking for love from people on this forum whilst dishing out insults and posting nonsense. And I didn't say anything about it being an insult, you did. I also don't want to be American. There are too many idiots like you in the country to wish for that.

Cloud says

I think the title to Dan's "Imagine No Religion" should be "Imagine No Radical Religion." Isn't this what he is really saying?

Probably not. I know he wants a world without God, but I wonder, does he want a government that protects those who wish to worship him?

Nah, he quite clearly wants a government that murders anyone who continues to believe in their religion. A serious question Cloud, why do you keep posting your drivel?

Cloud says

Why do you keep replying to it?

Your wrong-headedness needs to be addressed. It's a forum after all. But at least you admitted to it being drivel.

Cloud says

It referring to what you called "it."

Can you be more specific regarding what you define as drivel?

Your posts.

Raw says

We don't burn witches at the stake.
We don't stone women to death.
We don't kill our children because God says so.
We don't believe in slavery.

But state atheism *has* done atrocities in the name of wiping out religion. There was the French Revolution. The Russian Revolution. The Cultural Revolution in China. Look it up.

Most atheists are not violent. Most religious people are not violent. Ideological extemists are, of course, and there have been ideological extremists both religious and secular. It's a historical fact.

Cloud says

Copernicus, Bacon, Kepler, Galilei, Descartes, Pascal, Newton Boyle, Kelvin... recognize anyone of those names Raw.....and on and on....

If it wasn't for a believer you wouldn't be tapping on a computer right now.

Let's try again. I'll make it simpler. Name just 5 great scientists who are atheists. Go ahead. Dawkins? That's it? He will not be remembered in 30 years. Hell, he is not remembered now. The average citizen has never heard of him.

Newton, yes.

Cloud, I sense a lot of desperation in your words. I don't blame you as religion is dying. The more educated a society is, the less will they believe in God. Religion has limited value in the 21st century, and it is time to call it quits. Check this out....
How Will The Shocking Decline Of Christianity In America Affect The ...
endoftheamericandream.com/.../how-will-the-shocking-decline-of-...Jan 18, 2012 – Without a doubt, the religious landscape of America is changing. Over the past several decades, church attendance has been steadily declining ...

Sorry...
http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/how-will-the-shocking-decline-of-christianity-in-america-affect-the-future-of-this-nation

Cloud says

Copernicus, Bacon, Kepler, Galilei, Descartes, Pascal, Newton Boyle, Kelvin... recognize anyone of those names Raw.....and on and on....

If it wasn't for a believer you wouldn't be tapping on a computer right now.

Let's try again. I'll make it simpler. Name just 5 great scientists who are atheists. Go ahead. Dawkins? That's it? He will not be remembered in 30 years. Hell, he is not remembered now. The average citizen has never heard of him.

Newton, yes.

Why just 5 Cloud?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_in_science_and_technology

Cloud says

Raw, I consider many of the Greats throughout history the very best educated. What century would you like me to start in? The list of Greatest books ever written were by those who believed in God.

Also every society has tried to describe him or her or it or them. Guess you self-described and self-appointed atheists activists are a lonely bunch huh?

Cloud, you cannot be both a good Christian and a good scientist at the same time.
A good Christian must believe the earth is 6,000 years old, but a good scientist knows it is 13.5 billion years old.
Most scientists who you claim were Christians were really atheists in the closet. If I was a scientist in the Middle Ages, or even in the Middle East today, do you think I would proclaim myself to be an atheist? No, I would not, because I like my head attached to my body.

Cloud says

By the way, even if it were true that church attendance is declining it doesn't necessarily mean folks are becoming atheists. So check yourself.

That would be true. However, it does mean society is moving away from religion. My prediction....By the year 2100 religion will be reduced to the status of a cult.

Cloud, I do not proclaim to be an "Einstein" or even close. Just an average guy who eats an apple a day. I eat well, exercise daily, environmentalist to the core and agnostic.
Common sense says if you are in a society that persecutes atheists, then atheists will just walk into the closet.
By the way here is more proof religion is rapidly declining. Please sit down and stay away from sharp objects before you read this.
http://www.kfbk.com/pages/KFBKAfternoonNews.html?article=10348328

Cloud says

"Most religious people are not violent. Ideological extemists are, of course, and there have been ideological extremists both religious and secular. It's a historical fact."

And the ones who are violent, are violent because of religion.
A Noble prize winner in physics (forget his name) said.....
"Good people do good things, bad people do bad things, but it takes religion to make a good person do bad things"
You want an example...911.

Cloud says

I think the title to Dan's "Imagine No Religion" should be "Imagine No Radical Religion." Isn't this what he is really saying?

No, I don't think people should make national policy based on astrology either. All religion is delusional. All superstition ins delusional. And they are all dangerous, to varying degrees, but all dangerous nonetheless.

As soon as someone replaces rational cause and effect for superstition bullshit, that person shouldn't be in charge of the economy, the educational system, the free world, or America's nuclear arsenal.

Cloud says

Probably not. I know he wants a world without God, but I wonder, does he want a government that protects those who wish to worship him?

We already have a world without your god. Believing in a fictional character doesn't make him real.

And who exactly in our country is taking arms against those who wish to worship fictional characters? Exactly what protection is our government actively offering people who engage in superstitious rituals like Catholicism, witchcraft, tarot card reading, etc. When was the last time a witch was burned in this country -- not including Kansas?

Bigsby says

Nah, he quite clearly wants a government that murders anyone who continues to believe in their religion. A serious question Cloud, why do you keep posting your drivel?

Exactly. I promote the idea that people start thinking and abandoning superstition and Cloud makes a Straw Man argument that I'm calling for the military to attack churches. People who make Straw Man arguments do so because they know their position is utterly groundless.

Cloud says

Why do you keep replying to it?

There is a purpose to ridiculing the village idiot. The purpose is to make sure no one else takes the job.

freak80 says

But state atheism *has* done atrocities in the name of wiping out religion. There was the French Revolution. The Russian Revolution. The Cultural Revolution in China. Look it up.

Hardly. The Soviet Union was a political power grab. It had nothing to do with advancing atheism just like Hitler's evilness had nothing to do with mustaches. The Soviet Union would have been an evil empire had it been Christian or any other religion. Tyranny is evil independent of religion.

Not a single atheist organization calls for the assassination of political opponents like Lennon did. Christians do call for bombing abortion clinics and wiping out the Muslim world. Muslims call for honor killings of rape victims and suicide attacks. These positions are intrinsic to those religions. Bush invaded Iraq and killed a million men, women, and children because "god told" him to do so. Unjust laws are written in our country on the basis of religion. Education is compromised with lies because of religion. Atheism does none of these harms, and theists can't stand that fact which is why they always make up bullshit about atheists.

Raw says

Cloud, I sense a lot of desperation in your words. I don't blame you as religion is dying. The more educated a society is, the less will they believe in God.

So true. With knowledge comes the realization that all religions are lies and motivated by selfish and evil reasons.

Religion will eventually die, starting in developed nations. The only question is whether or not it will die fast enough to avoid Armageddon and to limit the damage to human life, the environment, and liberty.

Raw says

Why just 5 Cloud?

Appeal to authority is weak, especially when the examples come from a time when you'd be burned alive if you didn't say you believed in Christ.

Cloud says

By the way, even if it were true that church attendance is declining it doesn't necessarily mean folks are becoming atheists. So check yourself.

Atheism Rises, Religiosity Declines In America

Happy Easter! Christianity is Dying.

Hence, most of our problems.

Raw says

Cloud, you cannot be both a good Christian and a good scientist at the same time.

I'd also argue that you can't be both a good Christian and a republican. Jesus…

1. Would have forgiven Osama bin Laden and not have attacked Al Qaeda.
2. Is the mother of all communists, gives away free health care, and says you must give away all your possessions to follow him.
3. Never carried a weapon, was a pacifist, and would be anti-gun since he advocated no human has the right to take another human's life even in self-defense. You have to turn the other cheek and trust in god to save you or become a martyr.

Christianity is utterly incompatible with capitalism, the Republican platform, gun rights, a large military, and NASCAR.

Cloud says

Raw, now you are losing the argument by assuming I am Christian.

One doesn't have to assume it as it's obvious from your postings. You aren't the type to defend a group that you do not belong to. You are vicious and tribal. But hey, denounce your religion. Go ahead and tell us how false the Christian god and Jesus are.

Raw says

You want an example...911.

9/11 was a faith-based initiative.

Cloud says

"Christians do call for bombing abortion clinics and wiping out the Muslim world." Bull shit.

Extremists took down the towers, not religious people. Your title "Imagine no Religion" is disingenuous.

They were religious extremists. Those are religious people.

Religious organizations should be treated as any other non-profit organization.

That includes keeping the books, proving they didn't spend all the donations on a palace and multiple Porsches for the Leadership (ie Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn), they do not simply invest contributions but actually spend it towards their goals as claimed by their charter, etc.

They should definitely pay property tax, however.

thunderlips11 says

Religious organizations should be treated as any other non-profit organization.

That includes keeping the books, proving they didn't spend all the donations on a palace and multiple Porsches for the Leadership (ie Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn), they do not simply invest contributions but actually spend it towards their goals as claimed by their charter, etc.

They should definitely pay property tax, however.

Homo Economicus. A Legendary Creature, like Bigfoot, claimed to exist by Pseudoscientists.

Religious contribution are tax deductible. In effect I am paying for promoting fairy tales to adults. I demand we stick to separation of church and state.

Dan8267 says

Religion will eventually die, starting in developed nations. The only question is whether or not it will die fast enough to avoid Armageddon and to limit the damage to human life, the environment, and liberty.

I pray everyday for a quick end to religion before this takes place. In some ways it is taking place now.

Oh Lord, save us from the Quotes of Cowardly Atheist/Agnostic Einstein.

Cloud says

So that will leave you and about a thousand others to run the country.

As low as my opinion of Americans is, it's higher than yours.

Cloud says

I asked you do you want a country that protects the right to worship God?

It passes no laws regarding religion. It enforces laws against violence.

Cloud says

"Christians do call for bombing abortion clinics and wiping out the Muslim world." Bull shit.

Extremists took down the towers, not religious people. Your title "Imagine no Religion" is disingenuous.

Yeah, there are only a few hundred million "extremists" in the Middle East. Hardly representative. Most Muslims are orthodox Jews.

Cloud says

Atheists don't belong to the tribe of atheism?

After we've burnt the first theist at the stake until he's dead, you can call us a tribe. Until then, you're full of shit.

thunderlips11 says

Religious organizations should be treated as any other non-profit organization.

How are religious organizations non-profit. I think Jimmy Swaggart and the pope disproved that.

thunderlips11 says

They should definitely pay property tax, however.

Definitely.

Cloud says

What is your problem with a sincere and iconic believer and doubter like Einstein.

I don't have a problem with people. I have a problem with lies, bad laws, misinformation, the decline of our educational system, wars started because of religion including the Iraq War, and the harm done to advancing real morality and ethics by religion.

One can stamp out all of religion by educating the public. Doing so harms no individual.

I don't have a problem with people. I have a problem with evil and wrong ideas.

Raw says

A good Christian must believe the earth is 6,000 years old, but a good scientist knows it is 13.5 billion years old.

That isn't necessarily true, in spite of what Ken Ham might tell you. The six creation "days" in Genesis cannot be taken literally since there was no sun until the fourth "day." The Bible is not a technical manual on scientific matters.

Cloud says

"It passes no laws regarding religion. It enforces laws against violence."

Wierd response.

Yes or no. Do you support the First Amendment?

What a dumb question. Just because I support the First Amendment like everyone else in the country, doesn't mean I support religion.

I believe in freedom of speech, but if someone says factually incorrect things like Obama banned guns, I'm going to expose those arguments as lies.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

And true, Congress doesn't make any law prohibiting religion. Now, Congress may make laws prohibiting the kidnapping and murdering of people, so there goes human sacrifice, a time-honored tradition of religion. But that's ok because anit-murder laws are about suppressing religion, they are about protecting people's right to live, as opposed to voter ID laws which are about prohibiting people from exercising their right to vote.

Cloud says

And the government doesn't enforce all laws against violence. You have a right to protect yourself and others. We have a right to go to war. Police can use deadly force.

No shit Sherlock. That's not what I said. Once again you take things out of context and represent them as what they are not. Did you really think that I was stating that the law prevents the police or other people from using violence to defend themselves or others? Seriously, did you really think that?

Raw says

A Noble prize winner in physics (forget his name) said.....

The name you're looking for is Steven Weinberg, and there are two versions of the quote (one from a conference, the other from a subsequent article). The final version, from the article:

"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion."

You can see more:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/M8eWm5JNlNc&feature=related

Some of the sharper opposition to religion, which many religious people lament, is motivated by the political and military religion that has recently become rampant. It started during the Cold War, the McCarthy Era, when the Knights of Columbus lobbied the Congress (with President Eisenhower's approval) to change the pledge of allegiance to insert "under God" into "one nation indivisible," ironically dividing both the original phrase and the people reciting it. Also during that time, "In God We Trust" was mandated for all currency. (Previous generations of Americans had put that on some of the currency, occasionally, but never required it for all currency. The difference is significant: imagine saying that instead of different people being on different coins and notes, G.W. Bush would be on everything. Obviously it would confer upon him a much more central role.) Then Pat Robertson hijacked the Republican party, just as Al Qaeda hijacked airliners on 9/11.

My own opinion of Romney's cult, for example, changed profoundly after I started learning more about them. Initially I liked listening to the choir, even visited Salt Lake City, and liked the idea that we had a "made in America" religion. Then, after Prop H8, I wanted to know who did that and why. I learned about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, the requirement of "perfect obedience," the denigration of reason as a lower faculty, the fact that the cult calls intellectualism one of the three worst existential threats (along with feminism and homosexuality), i.e. morons call intellectualism the equivalent of a cardinal sin. They are required to obey perfectly, they are not allowed to think for themselves. The vast majority of Catholics can easily think of examples where they disagree with the Pope, and most people can name Catholic politicians who did the opposite of what the Pope told them to do, but when has Romney ever disagreed with his cult about anything? In the Mountain Meadows Massacre, just as on 9/11, we see another reason why some religious people hate (and even kill) atheists or anyone who doesn't share the same religion: religion is a tribal organizing force, easily turned into a weapon; like the monkeys in the opening scenes of 2001, certain self-serving actors have picked up religion as a weapon they can use to hurt and kill others while gaining power and glory for themselves.

Dan8267 says

Religion will eventually die, starting in developed nations. The only question is whether or not it will die fast enough to avoid Armageddon and to limit the damage to human life, the environment, and liberty.

Perhaps, but where religion dies so does the population (from low birth rates). If the universe is inherently meaningless, there's no reason to bring children into a world of pain and suffering. At least in a world with birth control and abortion readily available.

Developed nations are depopulating from low birth rates; they require immigration from less developed countries just to survive. Europe has to import conservative Muslims with higher birth rates just to survive. 100 years from now, Europe might be an Islamic theocracy.

Cloud says

I think Americans are a great people. I think our country is the light of the world which defeated Hitler and communism. I think the majority of Americans believe in God.

Then you are delusional about America as well.

- Communism fell apart on its own.
- Hitler and the Nazis were defeated by the Allied Powers, a collaboration of many nations.
- After WWII, America protected many Nazis including war criminals in order to gain technology in rocketry and other fields.
- The fundamental principle of Nazi philosophy is that some human life is worthless and can be violated for national security interests. This principle was adopted by the Republican Party, and to a large extend the Democratic Party as well, with the passage of the Patriot Act and the establishment of torture centers in Gitmo.

Do you really want me to show more pictures like this one? There are plenty to show and I've done so in the past.

If you really despised Nazism like I do -- not cartoon Nazi villains, but the real thing -- then you would be appalled at the
- USA Patriot Act
- NDAA
- warrantless wiretapping under the Bush administration
- immunity given to telecoms who engaged in warrantless wiretapping
- drone attacks of civilians including children
- torture at Guantanamo Bay
- torture outsource via "extraordinary rendition"
- TSA sexual molestation and rape scanners

These are America's implementation of Nazi philosophy.

Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
- Hermann Goering

Patriotism is just another word for nationalism. It is a vice to glorify your country. Those who truly care about their country or countrymen acknowledge the dark realities of our their country, shed light unto its problems, and seek solutions.

Waving a flag and shouting how great your country is and how it is the best in the world is not service to your country. It is the means that enables people like Georing to do evil using your country's power and resources.

freak80 says

Perhaps, but where religion dies so does the population (from low birth rates). If the universe is inherently meaningless, there's no reason to bring children into a world of pain and suffering.

The Catholic church has been making this argument recently. It suffers from two basic flaws. At a basic level, it does not support the veracity of any particular religious narrative; to the contrary, it seems to concede that the narrative itself may be false, and instead adopts the explanation that religion proliferates only because it leads to higher birthrates regardless of the quality of life, not because of any intrinsic merit. More importantly, it rationalizes traditional acceptance of pain and suffering, while ignoring the tremendous opportunities we have to improve the quality of life (see Ray Kurzweil's writings, for example). One answer to the argument is, we should improve the quality of life, partly because people feel a sense of achievement from solving problems and making progress. Bill Gates and Warren Buffett don't consider life to be meaningless, they see the opportunity to achieve human potential as meaning in itself, and they both have children above replacement rate. There are many less famous examples also. In other words, the answer to religion is progress, but if you insist on religion as the highest priority in itself, then it becomes an enemy of scientific progress, as we see in the Republican party currently (no stem cell research, because the NT says true believers should rely on faith healing, etc.).

freak80 says

Perhaps, but where religion dies so does the population (from low birth rates). If the universe is inherently meaningless, there's no reason to bring children into a world of pain and suffering. At least in a world with birth control and abortion readily available.

1. The world is already overpopulate for our current level of technology. A third of the world does not even have adequate safe drinking water. We don't need people to have half a dozen or more children.

2. Peak baby has been reached already, and it was due to financial security and social safety nets. The population is expected to peak at 10 billion.

3. Low birth rates will not endanger the continuation of our species. Negative feedbacks will increase the birth rates should the world population actually fall to below 10 million, which is about as likely as Cloud willing a Nobel Prize for bedding Scarlett Johansson.

4. Just because there is no god, doesn't make life meaningless. Even if there were a god, his existence would make life meaningful. And if there were more than one god, what the hell would that even say?

5. Life creates pain and suffering. It also creates joy and happiness. If the only reason you're not committing suicide is the possibility that god exists, then that's a pretty shitty reason to live.

6. The 141 million Russians and 1.3 billion Chinese don't seem to have a problem living with the acknowledgement that no god exists. That's a quarter of the world's population just right there.

freak80 says

Developed nations are depopulating from low birth rates; they require immigration from less developed countries just to survive. Europe has to import conservative

A high population isn't necessarily a good thing for a country unless your country's entire economy is just a Ponzi scheme, in which case, you'd be better off with economic reform than just adding bodies.

Dan8267 says

The 141 million Russians and 1.3 billion Chinese don't seem to have a problem living with the acknowledgement that no god exists.

Nonsense. I don't know much about China, but Russia experiences religious revival after ~80 years of massive atheist propaganda and suppression of religious freedom. Don't replace facts by wishful thinking.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/technology/21iht-glossies.4.18851226.html?pagewanted=all

Yes recently that's true. But while atheism was almost universal, several generations grow up atheistic and didn't commit mass suicide.

A few years back there was a PBS special that interviewed Russians on their ideas about god. Most said that they just did not even think about a god. It was a non-issue to them since they grew up not discussing religion.

Dan8267 says

But while atheism was almost universal, several generations grow up atheistic and didn't commit mass suicide.

You could say that several generations grew up "communistic", and that would be just the same kind of nonsense.

Dan8267 says

A few years back there was a PBS special that interviewed Russians on their ideas about god. Most said that they just did not even think about a god. It was a non-issue to them since they grew up not discussing religion.

They did not think about traveling to Japan or Italy either. They just did not think about it. It was a non-issue to them since they grew up not crossing the boundary of the Iron Curtain.

Leave Russia alone. The deeper you go there, the more nonsense you generate.

still1bear says

You could say that several generations grew up "communistic", and that would be just the same kind of nonsense.

No, because religious beliefs require brainwashing children. That's why religions don't want people to grow up before being indoctrinated. Adults tend to reject superstitious nonsense that weren't exposed to as kids.

Religion is like crack. It tries to get the kids hooked.

Dan8267 says

Leave Russia alone. The deeper you go there, the more nonsense you generate.

Dude, the only thing I said about Russia is that people didn't commit mass suicide in despair because they didn't believe there was a god. Are you actually making the argument that the lack of belief in a god caused tens of millions of Russians to commit suicide during the twentieth century? Please, go out on that limb.

Till then, you are free to argue against the arguments I've made. You are not free to argue against arguments I've haven't made as if I had.

There is definitely state-sponsorship of a campaign to revive Orthodoxy, and not doubt many Russians enjoy Orthodox ritual, the same way Frenchmen and Italians enjoy Catholic ritual.

Interest in Orthodoxy is a fad, like Vampire - Werewolf Love Triangles among American teenage girls.

Like Italians or Frenchmen, Russians aren't kicking the bottle or thinking twice before entering the abortion clinic, even though they may be getting married in an Orthodox Church more often these days. It's mostly a way of celebrating tradition and establishing differences in the post-Soviet period between Russians and other ex-Soviet states of Latin (Western Ukraine/Baltic States), Buddhists (Turkic and Mongol groups), and Muslims (ditto).

I also suspect that after Useless Yeltsin, Putin wants to be sure US Evangelicals and Charismatics don't get a toehold.

There's also Norway, Sweden, etc. to explain.

thunderlips11 says

Interest in Orthodoxy is a fad, like Vampire - Werewolf Love Triangles among American teenage girls.

But more dangerous. If religion takes off in Russia, it could cause them to be the next Afghanistan only with nukes.

Dan8267 says

still1bear says

You could say that several generations grew up "communistic", and that would be just the same kind of nonsense.

No, because religious beliefs require brainwashing children. That's why religions don't want people to grow up before being indoctrinated. Adults tend to reject superstitious nonsense that weren't exposed to as kids.

Religion is like crack. It tries to get the kids hooked.

The same applies 100% to the communist propaganda (and that includes mandatory atheist propaganda too). If you are a bit more familiar with the history of communism in Russia, you will understand that the communism took over the worst things from religion and killed the best things in it. AMOF, communism in Russia was a religion, and a much worse one than trditional Russian Orthodoxy.

Dan8267 says

Dude, the only thing I said about Russia is that people didn't commit mass suicide in despair because they didn't believe there was a god. Are you actually making the argument that the lack of belief in a god caused tens of millions of Russians to commit suicide during the twentieth century? Please, go out on that limb.

Yes, as a people they committed collective suicide by murdering each other for decades. Russia will never recover from decades of following the communist religion. They replaced traditional god and church by the new ones, and the result is well known. This was a serious warning for every militant atheist.

People en masse cannot live without religion. Atheism is a much worse religion than Protestantism.

Speaking of Propaganda, I love how the US Press treats vandals and assaulters like Pussy Riot as Ghandi-like figures, victims of Stalin-come-again Putin, but doesn't raise a peep when Occupy, Pro-Life, or any other protester group - regardless of ideology - is beaten, tazed, and maced for doin' nothing.

And of course, a handful of dumb WV hick privates and corporals are entirely responsible for Abu Gharib. There were no Senior NCOs, Officers, CIA, or "Private Contractors" telling them what, when, and how to manage the prisoners. Yeah Right.

Cloud says

Because some cruel GI striped down some Muslim terrorist and scared them with a german sheppard America sucks?

They were terrorists? Great. Please give me the status on those guys. When was their court date? What was their crime? How long did they serve?

Of course, they weren't tortured until they were found guilty, right?

5. Life creates pain and suffering.

Live IS pain, highness.

Anyone who says differently is selling something