patrick.net

You'd buy even if it continued to be a far better deal to rent the same thing?

Most people are willing to pay more to own than rent because they prefer the lifestyle. It's the only way to have a house that (over time) is completely personalized. Remodel to your liking, restructure to your liking.

SubOink says

Remodel to your liking, restructure to your liking.

Maybe inside, if you get planning permission and all. Outside, much harder to get permission.

And who says landlords won't allow improvements? They love improvements.

SubOink says

if you buy at the right price...

Yes, that's my whole point and only point really. So you agree.

SubOink says

I don't know ANYBODY that has owned and moved within 6 years

And nonetheless it's a fact that the median ownership length is 6 years. Look it up.

Maybe inside, if you get planning permission and all. Outside, much harder to get permission.
And who says landlords won't allow improvements? They love improvements.

Actually landlords dont love improvements unless it's done the way THEY want it.
I'm in the process of converting my house into a duplex so I can leave one half open for when I want to stay there and rent the other half.
Good luck getting your landlord to agree to that!
And no I'm not getting anyone's permission to do this. If the city says something I'll pay the fines.

SubOink says

The truth is - I don't know ANYBODY that has owned and moved within 6 years

actually most of the homes I've bought I've lived there for 6 years or less but only because I bought a new house and transferred my equity into the new one . As long as you don't increase your debt you're still on the same 30 year cycle.

SFace says

would you really want to upgrade the kitchen or bathroom knowing you are leasing the place?

People do, especially in expensive markets. It's fairly standard with high-end rentals in NYC.

SFace says

An established neighborhood like Menlo Park, especially for SFH, median ownership is likely around 20 years.

No, pretty sure it's nowhere near 20 years. Houses turn over here constantly. Just drive around and you see for sale signs all the time. I certainly see them.

In fact, I usually get a kick out of biking around and noting all the houses I've seen the inside of when they were for sale. There are only a very few people I know of who've been in the neighborhood longer than I have (13 years now).

than I have (13 years now)

You yourself prove me right. Haven't moved in 13 years...

I rest my case.

I rent though.

Buying a house is a tricky thing most people go through a few before they finally settle down.

Cut expenses while you are working. Save half your income. Buy with cash when you retire. Use a lifetime of learning to make the biggest purchase of your life.

taxee says

Cut expenses while you are working. Save half your income. Buy with cash when you retire. Use a lifetime of learning to make the biggest purchase of your life.

But then you will miss the lifetime experience of speculating!

bubblesitter says

But then you will miss the lifetime experience of speculating!

Youth is a kick even without spending a lot. Go for the surest thing and maybe have a dignified old age.

SubOink says

Remodel to your liking, restructure to your liking.

Maybe inside, if you get planning permission and all. Outside, much harder to get permission.

And who says landlords won't allow improvements? They love improvements.

SubOink says

if you buy at the right price...

Yes, that's my whole point and only point really. So you agree.

SubOink says

I don't know ANYBODY that has owned and moved within 6 years

And nonetheless it's a fact that the median ownership length is 6 years. Look it up.

Flippers have skewed the owership average a lot. They shouldnt count a less than one year of owning but they do.

There are only a very few people I know of who've been in the neighborhood longer than I have (13 years now).

I'd love to see a rough rent/buy calc for over the 13 years that shows you have been better off renting vs buying for those 13 years.

Not saying it's not possible, especially with a great rental deal, but hard for me to fathom without seeing the numbers.

I saw Patrick's ad for his book today. I hope he sells a lot of them. I only wish he provided more details about what is in the book.

Biff

SFace says

My SFH in Hercules, probably 1-2, lol.

@SFace so true. My folks own a home in neighboring Pinole, and the turnover we've witnessed in this neighborhood has been alarming... Neighborhood was built in 1990 and is in the ballpark of less than 10% of original owners remaining. That makes for a neighborhood where you don't want to meet your neighbors since they are sure to bail in no time.

Patrick, how many copies you up to?

Test: @BayArea

Bought it and my wife immediately picked it up and started reading. Surprising since she loathes another rant from me inspired by patrick.net.

BayArea says

Patrick, how many copies you up to?

472 sold now.

Awesome, climbing steadily looks like.

Now, who are those bulls that posted negative reviews?

Patrick, just left you my own 5-star Amazon review.

bubblesitter says

Now, who are those bulls that posted negative reviews?

One is someone that took offense to the wife section. I knew this would get some flack but I can't argue with Patrick on this one. Perhaps version II should go a touch more PC and note "spouse" instead as was already covered.

The other is someone that's simply overly critical.

But I do wonder, Patrick, was it still cheaper for you to rent where you are then to have bought the same thing in 2009-2011 when the Case-Shiller index in Nor CA dropped to below 125 (2002 pricing levels)?

BayArea says

But I do wonder, Patrick, was it still cheaper for you to rent where you are then to have bought the same thing in 2009-2011 when the Case-Shiller index in Nor CA dropped to below 125 (2002 pricing levels)?

Yes! It is still far cheaper to rent where I am (94025), though the difference had declined a little.

It's still nuts here. Kind of like NYC. People pay amounts way beyond the fundamental value of a house or apartment just to impress their friends.

Interesting!

I do think that the number of homeowners that know how to value a property and compare cost to own vs rent is staggeringly low if I had to guess.

For many, buying is just something you do as a inexplicable progression in ones life (or ones mind at least).

And to be fair when I bought in 2007, I had no clue on the topic of valuation and cost to buy vs rent.

just to impress their friends

and be *with* their friends. Location, location, location.

I wouldn't mind getting a doomstead over the hill from you in the San Lorenzo valley, but who the hell will come and see me???

bubblesitter says

Now, who are those bulls that posted negative reviews?

There is only one. What do they know anyway. I teach classes of 40-100 people. I don't get too worried when one person gives me a scathing review.

Bellingham Bill says

I wouldn't mind getting a doomstead

ROFL! I like the term "doomstead". Never head it before but I know exactly what you mean. A place to wait out the coming cannibal anarchy.

Bellingham Bill says

I wouldn't mind getting a doomstead

ROFL! I like the term "doomstead". Never head it before but I know exactly what you mean. A place to wait out the coming cannibal anarchy.

AF would be the right person to add some flavor here. :)

how about getting it digitally on the Nook??

I like paper really. It sticks around much better than bits do.

Remember when Amazon was revoking books from people's Kindles without their permission? That kind of shit just can't be done with paper.

True...but I'm all set up for the Nook!
Nook HD+....Nook reader on the galaxy s3....both home and work computers...can get at all books/mags anytime anywhere...the convenience factor is overwhelming...
I'll give you $ 12.50 and you email me the original manuscript!! I gotta have it in 'bits'!

I like paper really. It sticks around much better than bits do.

Remember when Amazon was revoking books from people's Kindles without their permission? That kind of shit just can't be done with paper.

well, i can probably download the kindle reader for everything and get it there...

I'll mail you a paper copy. Email me where to send it.

Thanks for the offer...but i've ordered the digital copy...
Your frontpage advertisement finally wore me down!!

No matter which side of the fence you're one, it's an excellent reference, and gets the juices flowing. I bought one a few months back and have shared it with a couple of people. I need to buy another one for my son, who's about to strap himself to a millstone.

It all comes down to is it cheaper to rent or is it cheaper to buy ..

if you can Rent the home you'd love to live in for less than you would pay to buy it. why would you buy it? and vice versa.

for me the home i really wanted to live in was cheaper to buy, so i did. Using the Rent vs buy calculator came back with 17% more value to buy.

one thing that confuses me is that the rent vs buy calculator on this site ignores equity built up (or i'm just not seeing it)

also for me.. i just couldn't find a house with a full acre to rent. i could find houses with small back yards and 3 car garages , that were less than a stone throws from the neighbors. and i ended up buying a house with a 2 car (i have 4 vehicles + a trailer) but with a full acre parking is rather easy. :D

How are sales going? Is release two coming out?

toothfairy says

I can leave one half open for when I want to stay there and rent the other half.

If the city says something I'll pay the fines.

That's the landlord I want....
NOT!!

zesta says

There are only a very few people I know of who've been in the neighborhood longer than I have (13 years now).

I'd love to see a rough rent/buy calc for over the 13 years that shows you have been better off renting vs buying for those 13 years.

Not saying it's not possible, especially with a great rental deal, but hard for me to fathom without seeing the numbers.

8 years in a rental purchased by owner for $405k.
Move in rent = $1,480. Move out rent = $1,630
Current asking price = $375K

Humm...

You are actually advocating being a life long renter?!

You know Patrick I was thinking about this trap deal.

This housing isn't very different from credit cards. Credit cards try to get you to max yourself out and pay them interest for the rest of your life. And housing today isn't any different, banks want you paying interest to them for as long as they can get you. Might not be the same, but similarity is there.

Fort Wayne,
My partner and I were house poor for about five years, but after that, with prop 13 basis locked in and amortizing the loan it wasn't so bad.
Now my "rent" is below market by a lot.
Many I know who chose to rent over the years are dealing with rents escalating and getting kicked out for property upgrade, sale, family moving in, etc at the end of their leases.
Patrick moved here from the Midwest and brought his Midwest sensibility with him, hence his Sticker Shock.
Obnoxious Behavior of Obnoxious Bay Arean Obnoxious Realtors exacerbated his negative perception about buying.
Beans and Rice, Old Beater Cars, and Sucking It Up on the Job for a few years seem like relatively small sacrifice now, for our "rent controlled" residence.