patrick.net

Why buy when you can rent the same house for half the cost? Because I did the math: If you rent today at $2,000 / month with regular inflation at 3.5% you pay a total of $3,253,988.09 after 50 years when you die. If you pay now $4,000 with a 30 year mortgage you pay less than half ("only" $1,444,000) and that already in the first 30 years, after that you live rent/mortgage free for the other 20 years and your kids will then sell your old shack in the year 2062 to some "tired of renting" kids for a few million dollars at whatever the median home price will be. Don't think only about today, look at history and then calculate the future.

YUP: yes I noticed that we have wage inflation, but we have it together with inflation. That inflation just don't want to go away. Everything you need is only getting more expensive. Maybe not every single year, but looking long-term, yes it is all going up.

The same jackasses that bid up housing on the other side of the bubble are now relegated to bidding up rents. If you're into taking advantage of these simple simon motherfuckers by being a RE huckster, jump in, the water is warm.

People seem to ignore some of the layered implications involved in the rent vs buy calculations. First, the renters take no risk beyond their current lease. If/when the market tanks again, renters aren't tied to yesteryears inflated valuations and the leverage and tax bill that oft comes along. This imo is the reason why renting seems "more expensive" then buying currently, because people seem to simply compare monthly payments

Then you have the transaction cost to exit the trade. For a renter, it costs about 30$ to rent a truck to move all your stuff, and you sign a new lease with a deposit + 1st months rent, whereas the guy selling the 750k crib gets banged in the head upwards of 50k

Disclosure, I am a mortgageholding house owner, but I'm not silly enough to get duped into cheerleading on higher prices, because I understand that higher house prices make us all collectively poorer and crush the economy

Being that RE is local, I tend to pay by far most attention to my local area. The market here continues on the positive trend of lower prices, with flat rents. I'm seeing a girl that is a property manager for a large corp. She said that against her reccomendations, her higher ups forced an across the board rent increase of 100$ per month in the units she manages, and vacancy rates doubled immediately

War: you answered without reading (or understanding?) my comment. I agree that it might be cheaper at the moment to rent and I even calculated a mortgage payment 100% higher than today's rent!!!! Have your wife explain my calculations to you please.

PockyClipsNow says

Hey if rates go up and house prices go down I have clearly made a financial blunder.

I'm placing my money where my mouth is and betting on future low rates plus future higher house price.

In theory this sounds good, but, what about the unpredictability of future "foreclosures" and their consequences? They may reward defaulters now, but who knows what may happen.

What if the gov passes legislation with HUGE penalities for unpaid debt (deficiency)? Double taxation? Debt - prisons? Who knows? We live in unprecedented times...

I also totally agree that today house prices in many markets are artificially inflated with unsustainable methods. I assume that house price in the short-term will further fall in many markets, even though they are increasing at the moment.

Anybody who buys a house today with the expectation or re-selling it within the next 10 years for a decent profit might as well go and gamble in Las Vegas for a quicker profit (or loss). Or just throw the money out the window, maybe more money will fly back in?

War: check the S&P/Case-Shiller Home Price Indices. Maybe your neighborhood is going down the gutter, but nationwide the market going slightly up (artificially manufactured by banks+government).

War: I think they have some English classes as well as reading classes for free on youtube. Maybe you can ask someone to help you to access them.

Sure, if you adjust it it can go down. I am talking straight numbers without adjusting them.

Actually the seasonal adjusted numbers have gone up too, but they have not reached the level of inflation.

Not according to Case=Shiller. Composite10 is up to 154.85 and Composite20 is up to 142.10 seasonally adjusted this year compared to last year.
Proof: http://www.standardandpoors.com/indices/articles/en/us/?articleType=XLS&assetID=1245214507706

Not correct, prices are NOT ALWAYS go up in spring and early summer, like for example 2008 and 2009. I suggest you educate yourself before writing false comments to avoid embarrassment.

154.85 is higher than 153.98 according to my maths teacher!

YoY CS 10SA was 153.98 in July 2011 and raised to 154.85 in July 2012, that's the latest data from Case-Shiller. Go to their website and check for yourself.

It went up both seasonally adjusted and non-seasonally adjusted.

Call it Crazy, of course they did not have those loans 40 years ago, I just wanted to compare apples with apples. And right, people stay only for an average of 5-7 years, then sell their home for a profit and repeat the same thing again (or let it go back to the bank, or keep it as rental, or sell to break even, or sell with a loss). Also no renter ever stays in the same house for 50 years. I just wrote a maths example to compare cost of renting to cost of buying. If you want to live exactly by my maths example than just keep the house as a rental when you move out.

WAR, it is whatever you want to believe. For me, it's whatever the facts say.

In terms of inflation: yes, inflation is higher than house price appreciation. Wages are going down. Think about this (numbers here are just examples) Inflation 3%, Wages down 2%, house price up 1%. All three numbers make things worse for the home BUYER. No matter if inflation is higher than home appreciation. Yes, homes did not inflate as fast as most other things, but when you consider that wages are flat or declining means it is less affordable to buy a house today than it was a year ago. On national average. Of course every individual situation is different. Less affordable means to me pretty much the same as more expensive. The price has gone up more than the income that pays for it.

Ok WAR, we can see that Santa Clara County went down. Can you post the same type of graph for all 3143 counties in this country? Or do you believe just like Paul Ryan that because one area in the country has over 10% unemployment all other areas in the entire country must be the same?

Actually it's just the small area of Sunnyvale that's heading south. Santa Clara County seems to be edging higher towards $600k since 2009. More like flat or slightly going up rather than down...

War says

DO NOT buy housing now. Tell everyone.

You might actually be right. If you are looking for a bargain it's too late.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/orange-374368-county-price.html

Well duh, pretty much everywhere on planet earth is down from late 2007. The 2010 mini peak was due to the homebuyer tax credit and everything else seems pretty seasonal and flat since mid 2008. Another useless chart. But hey, spread the word. That's fewer people my daughter will have to compete with when she's ready to buy.

CashWillCrash says

Or do you believe just like Paul Ryan that because one area in the country has over 10% unemployment all other areas in the entire country must be the same?

Now, do we see who the Three Stooges'esk didactics are in this thead?

CashWillCrash says

PockyClipsNow will then sell his house to YOUR kids for $3,000,000.00

Please, this has now gone off into the bizarre to me.

Bigsby says

Yes, you are missing something.

I am not missing a damn thing, especially when it comes to the all to obvious didactic game. It appears to me like this is what for you? Act II or III for you? While the other two are on to Act IV or V?

I see a three-ring circus going on in this thread. What do some people think this is the political thread now? Where it's all too famous for the same sad tactics?

Reader says

I am not missing a damn thing, especially when it comes to the all to obvious didactic game. It appears to me like this is what for you? Act II or III for you? While the other two are on to Act IV or V?

I see a three-ring circus going on in this thread. What do some people think this is the political thread now? Where it's all too famous for the same sad tactics?

Same old same old from you Reader. You completely miss what people are saying (or totally misrepresent it for your own purposes), and then cry like a little baby over it if people respond. Just try reading people's posts before you fly off on one of your little rants.

dublin hillz says

For someone to say that rents are falling "irrespective of location" should put them on a 3 strikes and you are out list. This sort of lunacy is not conducive to learning or debate.

The potential rental income of your recent purchase is falling. How is that for being specific. ;)

RentingForHalfTheCost says

I think it is though.

You think right now is the peak of a bubble?? What leads you to that conclusion?

Reader says

"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of other's opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary."

Steve Jobs

I agree 100%.

Jobs was a jerk and a nut. I know many people that worked there during his cry-baby rampages. Insults and degrading people were a common affair. If you like that type of management then he is your man. Not my cup of tea. Apple got lucky with pushing the right buttons with the music and phone industries. Having Job's antics steering the ship made it work, but there were probably much better management styles that would have gotten to the same point. I like the iPhone, but don't necessary like Jobs or people like him. Job's is not much different than Armstong, and if you are reading the news you are seeing that whole mess unraveling and the underbelly of the man everyone thought of as a hero coming down.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

dublin hillz says

For someone to say that rents are falling "irrespective of location" should put them on a 3 strikes and you are out list. This sort of lunacy is not conducive to learning or debate.

The potential rental income of your recent purchase is falling. How is that for being specific. ;)

There's probably a greater chance of hell freezing over before I would consider renting out my pad to someone. That being said, how can potential rental income of any property in bay area be falling considering the rental market insanity here? My relative just told me yesterday that a 425 sq condo in S.F is going for close to $2500. For whatever reason, people are willing to spend asinine amounts on rents here and it's getting worse.

dublin hillz says

My relative just told me yesterday that a 425 sq condo in S.F is going for close to $2500.

Funny, my dog's friend's master's wife just told me that she visited a few rentals and couldn't decide. She made the mistake of giving out here cell phone and it never stopped ringing from owners trying to land her as a tenant. One owner was willing to give her 3 months free rent and also do her clothes wash and folding for a full year.

Love this hearsay stuff. ;)

tatupu70 says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

I think it is though.

You think right now is the peak of a bubble?? What leads you to that conclusion?

Hmm

Jobs, debt, deficit, Jobs, debt, deficit, Jobs, debt, deficit.

Do you even realize how bad it is to owe 16 trillion dollars! Sit back and think about it for a second. If you started counting in millions, one a second, it would take you half a year to reach it. By that time you might as well tack on another trillion. We are somewhere where we have never been. No one has an answer to the problem. Why? Because the answer is hard to take. We are living above our means, anything virtual is at risk of evaporating before our eyes. It will take more than inflation, wars, productivity improvements, effective government to save us.

Here is my reasoning. Lets say we start to do the right things. Lets say we eventually get to having a government surplus in 10 years or so. Yes, that is what we need to tackle the debt problem. We have been there before you know. We have had a surplus. However, what happens then? Everyone starts screaming that we need to spend the money on programs and forget the debt. No one gives a rats ass about tomorrows problem. That is just human near sighted thinking. Unless you care, which no one seems to, you are going to waist the surplus on building bridges to nowhere, paying people more for less, growing government, etc.

Fast forward to the next down cycling and BOOM we start the debt pattern again. How do you think we got to 16 trillion! Tie government wages to the deficit and it'll disappear in a heartbeat. It is so silly it is laughable.

The small 20-30% adjustment on home values will be easy to take considering when we actually start the process to get serious. I suspect the first stage will be the 2013 tax season. When people see how much they owe it will blow their mind. Good luck to all.

Believe or Not - rent is falling.
My rental unit dropped $100/mo. since I renewed my lease a month ago.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Do you even realize how bad it is to owe 16 trillion dollars!

Right on. That's why they are going to come right out and say it on Fox News! We implemented Mark to Market accounting so the banks can ignore their losses and continue on as Zombie banks. Doing their silly short sale tricks, waiting for a tomorrow that may never come, Fannie will continue to market high priced garbage to the unwitting, etc.

CashWillCrash says

Yeah, they're down but $600k still buys you a pathetic piece of trailer in the bay area.

LOL, maybe someone should check out the Phoenix rental thread.

I've been paying the same rent for 2 years. First time in California since 1987 the landlord hasn't even raised the 3% yearly allowance for Los Angeles County.

Maybe a pattern here?

Looks like people here are finding it amazing when their rent wasn't increased in 2-5 years. It's like having a 2 year ARM or 5 year ARM. Interest Only, never payoff. Ever considered a fixed rate mortgage? Same payment for life? You can get a mortgage right now for free (inflation adjusted).