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did you think that people just dont want to live in India? would you want to live there?
I love the food :) Also medical care seems inexpensive, partly because they don't seem to require an Rx to buy drugs.
I agree food is great... but really? You really think people dont move there cuz the lower salaries? I doubt that is hardly in anyones mind when deciding NOT to move there...
curious2
2012 Nov 15, 3:29pm
but really? You really think people dont move there cuz the lower salaries?
Around the world people in every line of work tend to move to places where they can earn higher salaries. Why would doctors be somehow different from all other people in all lines of work?
I only mention this because you dismissed tort reform in earlier posts.
Not only dismissed, disproved. Bob and I have had this debate.
Around the world people in every line of work tend to move to places where they can earn higher salaries. Why would doctors be somehow different from all other people in all lines of work?
Unfortunately your argument was not that doctors would move somewhere for higher salaries. Of course people would move to another country if they got paid more. Instead, your argument was that doctors dont move to India cuz salaries are lower there, which is an entirely different argument. My argument was that there are PLENTY of other reasons why ANYONE would not move to India.
Not only dismissed, disproved. Bob and I have had this debate.
Funny how you take the quote of a couple people and think that it is disproved. The fact of the matter is that, there are tons and tons of frivolous lawsuits. Just look on daytime TV and you will see lawyers paying millions for TV ads to recruit clients. This is a cost to healthcare since eventually the cost of lawsuits are eventually passed to patients.
curious2
2012 Nov 16, 1:22pm
Meccos, if you are going to spout a myth from Faux News, you should at least give equal time to opposing views and some factual numbers. Decades of studies have shown that American hospitals injure 20% patients, but most malpractice does not result in litigation, and the share that does result in litigation amounts to only 2% of total spending:
http://www.justice.org/cps/rde/justice/hs.xsl/8686.htm
How American Healthcare Killed My Father
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/503853
Malpractice Lawsuits Are ‘Red Herring’
Your myth is slightly irritating because certain people keep repeating it even though it's a red herring.
Meccos, if you are going to spout a myth from Faux News, you should at least give equal time to opposing views and some factual numbers. Decades of studies have shown that American hospitals injure 20% patients, but most malpractice does not result in litigation, and the share that does result in litigation amounts to only 2% of total spending:
I find it amusing that a liberals first instinct is to accuse someone of watching Fox news if they have an opposing view.
I also find it funny how you can make such a strong argument about doctor salaries being too high when it makes up 8% of health care costs, but dismiss cost of malpractice suits at 2-3% of health care costs. The fact is frivolous lawsuits add cost to healthcare. Even based on the articles you linked, if it comes to 2-3% of healthcare costs, that would equate to 40-80 billions dollars depending on what figures you read. Can you tell me 40-80 billion dollars is nothing?
BTW most malpractice suits do not go to litigation because they are either thrown out because they are outrageous or because it is more cost effective to settle. These costs are unknown and not calculated. In addition, most would argue that the true cost of defensive medicine is unknown and other costs such as the cost of malpractice insurance carried by all medical professionals, administrative costs, lawyer costs, lost work time are also additional costs not calculated into these figures. Regardless even at 2-3%, based on your figures, the cost are into the billions and billions of dollars.
btw, do you think your articles written by trial lawyers or quoting trial lawyers are really credible in making an argument on this subject matter??? linking articles do not really mean much, especially if they were produced by people with a clear bias
Your myth is slightly irritating because certain people keep repeating it even though it's a red herring.
So what exactly is "my myth" that you accuse me of? All i said are the quotes belowMeccos says
Funny how you take the quote of a couple people and think that it is disproved. The fact of the matter is that, there are tons and tons of frivolous lawsuits. Just look on daytime TV and you will see lawyers paying millions for TV ads to recruit clients. This is a cost to healthcare since eventually the cost of lawsuits are eventually passed to patients.
In addition, you should also take note of amount of money spent in overtreatment. This is classic defensive medicine, which many doctors are forced into due to the numerous frivolous lawsuits. I only mention this because you dismissed tort reform in earlier posts.
So these things Ive said got your panties in a bunch?
Wow....this is old. Am an MD/PhD, worked in foreign countries and respect non-MD jobs: people work hard and compensation does not scale with "hard work" - this is nonsense. YES, we are handsomely paid as MDs in the USA, which is not true in Germany and other countries with better healthcare systems. It's the way the system is set up, it has NOTHING (I repeat, NOTHING) to do with how hard MDs work, how smart and dedicated they are, and the cost of education. The supply of MDs is low, the market is carefully controlled and the honoraries are extraordinarily high compared to other developed countries, except Netherlands and Australia that also pay high MD honoraries. Most of the world does FINE paying MDs normal wages, equivalent to that of professionals such as lawyers and engineers: that's the upper middle class in most of the world.
It's pure economics. If hard work and sacrifice paid well, Bangladeshi sweatshops would be full of 6-figure pay checks.
As for why the technology sector pays comparatively worse: US-based tech companies employ and reward handsomely engineers and scientists abroad. They can also easily bring foreign labor into the US, which can explain part of the decay in the salaries of most technology and manufacture sectors. So, the oddity in America is that engineers and other professions that are "equivalent to medicine" are severely undervalued. Plus, an MD is never out of a job, other careers are hit harder by unemployment. For the MD crusaders out there, who brag about their 1 billion hours per week and so on, try 6+ months of unemployment and see what it does to your mental health.
But keep in mind: MDs are not the crème of american society, just a niche of high-paid professionals that generated a "super upper middle class". Those salaries do not place MDs in positions of power and influence...
edit. To the MDs who give the "we deal with people's lives" argument, have you thought of becoming kidnappers? That argument violates basic ethical standard to be a physician: you cannot monetise a human life, that's what criminals do.
can earn over $200K, as a doctor, in places like Des Moines Iowa, nevermind the big coastal cities.
More like 500-700k even for primary care
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I think it's time that we stop the lies and admit the truth, doctors are simply overpaid. GPs are at ~$150K while specialists and surgical specialists are from $200K to $500K. Most engineers and scientists simply do not have sustainable salaries of that amount and then, for those blowhards out there (you know who you are), stop bragging about your $200K salaries in Silicon Valley. You can earn over $200K, as a doctor, in places like Des Moines Iowa, nevermind the big coastal cities.
There are postdocs in both the physical and biomedical sciences earning $42K/yr and then, soon, another 4K+ NASA scientists will be unemployed and most likely, overspecialized for a future position outside of the Natl labs. FYI, many of those jobs are accounted for. Instead of re-training a/o re-assigning these talented individuals into becoming doctors, PAs, pharmacists, nurses, etc ... they have to compete against 20-somethings for limited freshman spots in some heath care program, if they want to find a career in a field with a lot of legislated protection. Yes, there's NO (typo, now fixed) free market, in terms of supply, in the field of medicine. Here's my solution, if one can score a 30 or higher on the MCAT, he/she should be able to transfer into the clinical years of an MD program, typically into year number 3. Yes, it should be a low cost program as those first two year subjects: biochemistry, physiology, anatomy, histology, etc, are in the public domain of knowledge. While one's working in industry, let's say a NASA subcontractor, one can study those subjects on his own and then, take the AMA exam which shows that one's qualified to become a doctor.