patrick.net

Bap33 says

that posts shows you have not read Leviticus

...in fact I have, including the parts that prohibit pork and shellfish and fowl ("abomination"), and handling pigskin (football), and wearing clothing of mixed fiber, and Jews dining with Gentiles. The list of abominations is quite long, and the reason for your fixation on one in particular is obvious to everyone but you.

curious2 says

most on all sides were Catholic.

Not really, mainly because of some stupid Catholic rules that completely separate lots of people from the Church.

In regards to the Biblical accounts I don't think I need to remind you that Old Testament was compiled much later from muliple sources, mainly from various Liturgical cycles originated in different cities in Canaan.

As you surely know even when they preserve some historic stories the numbers are wildly exaggerated in such chronicles.

For example Greek chronicles claim Xerxes brought in a force of three millions. Modern estimates talk about like 60,000 combatants, which even counting also all kind off additional logistics and support people means that they exaggerated it at least 20 times.

curious2 says

This is often extended to include references to other target groups, e.g. Jews, homosexuals, etc. The courage of a few low-level pastors, what in the Catholic tradition might be called "fighting priests" who speak truth to power (see Fr. Bernard Lynch), stands in stark contrast to the Catholic church's complicity in the Holocaust.

As I've mentioned, his source in extremely unreliable, BTW, I tried to search their archives and found nothing on the matter. Please remember Einstein's name is a very big token and both Jews and Atheists try to appropriate it, apparently as well as Catholics. Holosaust is another huge political token, and "Catholic church's complicity in the Holocaust." is another big one.

So, on the one hand we have a statement published many times, on another an obscure unpublished letter, in custody of a very interested party.

Quite frankly, I tend to believe that Einsteins statement was somehow exaggerated by journalists and even that there exists a letter, where he mentions this. However, apparently, it did not completely change the meaning of Einsteins statement, otherwise he would deny it openly. Also apparently it was not satisfactory for the ideological needs that archive supposed to serve, so we probably won't see it published in near future.

Regarding Martin Niemöller's verses, I do not think it was related. In any version Einstein speaks about few churchmen, he would mention Niemöller in his letter, rather than few churchmen, especially because Einstein was aware of the very bad colaborion of Lutheran church with Nazis and Niemöller was a Lutheran pastor. Also Einstein's statement was very likely earlier than Niemöller's, or at least earlier than Einstein could learn about Niemöller's.

michaelsch says

Also Einstein's statement was very likely earlier than Niemöller's, or at least earlier than Einstein could learn about Niemöller's.

Yes, you're right about that, and while we were both apparently reading further I had corrected my original post to say "pastors like" him rather than Niemöller specifically. I agree that interested parties have tried to appropriate these tokens or icons, so I do try to consult a diversity of sources.

michaelsch says

Dan8267 says

Yes, because it is only the religious who make the claim that gay sex is immoral. Naturally this forum is the place to question that assertion.

What a crap!

Homosexuality was iilegal and a criminal offence in Soviet Union, which was an atheist state. It was officially persecuted in Nazi Germany, that was practically an atheist state with very strong pagan sentiment.

The Soviet Union was an atheist state since Lennon and Stalin didn't want competition from the church. However, Nazi Germany was completely Christian, so no, you are wrong.

Homosexuality was also illegal and a criminal offense in both the United States and Great Britain throughout most of the 20th century, both predominately Christian. Homosexuality is still a felony on paper in many states, particularly the highly religious ones.

I will grant you that the Soviet Union was an evil empire though. Just goes to show that even atheists can be assholes. It's just that religion makes it much more probable.

michaelsch says

What you say here is that the natural empathy mechanism of human mind develops some hormons in your body, which makes you feeling bad about Mathew Shepard death. Is that what you call moral? Your hormons driven feelings? But there are endless examples of such feelings that You would consider immoral.

No, no, and no.

michaelsch says

The bottom line is:
1. your hormons, your feelings, and your prejustices have nothing to do with morality. Moral or immoral may be only your choice

If what you are saying is that a person's prejudices and emotions do not determine what is moral and what isn't, then correct. This is precisely why all of Bap's arguments that homosexual sex is immoral is nothing more than bigotry.

michaelsch says

2. Moral is sacrificing something of your own, while immoral is sacrificing others to your interests or whims.

Selfishness is certainly one aspect of immorality, and selflessness is certainly an aspect of morality. It is not, however, all that there is to morality.

Nor does any of this relate to homosexual sex being immoral.

michaelsch says

3. The differences between moral and immoral we all can perceive is totally meaningless without absolute Truth and absolute Goodness.

True, of course, is absolute. Whether or not "goodness" is absolute does not imply that morality is absolute.

Dan8267 says

Homosexuality is still a felony on paper in many states, particularly the highly religious ones.

Mental illness and birth defects should be treated whenever possible. Laws like these do not help the issue at all.

The law should NOT regulate morality.

michaelsch says

Dan8267 says

Religion kills in mass.

Dan, you keep repeating this absolutely false statement.

In fact, French Revolution, Russian Revolution, and Nazism were all atheist and each one broke records in mass murder.

False statement, my ass. The Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust, Bush's entry into the Iraq War. All caused by religion.

Nazism: totally Christian

And as for the Soviet Union,
http://patrick.net/?p=1219145

Dan8267 says

Bush's entry into the Iraq War.

While W did claim to have God on his side, his actions were also motivated by a personal vendetta, as predicted in The New Yorker in 2001:

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2001/01/22/2001_01_22_034_TNY_LIBRY_000022555

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2001/12/24/011224fa_FACT

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,235395,00.html

http://articles.cnn.com/2002-09-27/politics/bush.war.talk_1_homeland-security-senators-from-both-parties-republican-phil-gramm?_s=PM:ALLPOLITICS

Religion was a cause why W became POTUS, i.e. Christian fundamentalists supported him because they saw him as one of them. It was also a rationalization for the war, i.e. he called it a Crusade, and claimed God wanted him to bring Democracy to Iraq. It was also a theme in the occupation, e.g. damage to historic Babylon (enemy of Biblical Jerusalem) and other ancient artifacts. But, the war itself, taking Saddam out, was mostly a personal vendetta.

Dan8267 says

False statement, my ass. The Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust, Bush's entry into the Iraq War. All caused by religion.

Especially the Holocaust! Dan, you blind yourself.
Spanish Inquisition never used mass killing.

Nazism: totally Christian

Absolute nonsense. You shoot such things all the time. Either come back to something reasonable or let's stop this discussion.

Dan8267 says

And as for the Soviet Union,
http://patrick.net/?p=1219145

It's a totally ignorant BS. It was not a single dictator who killed people, it was an atheist revolution.
Red terror happened under Lenin and other atheist leaders when Stalin had absolutely no power.
Stalins most murderous policies were the implementation of Trotsky's plans. Also some very cruel persecution of the religion happened under Khrushhev after Stalin death.

As for the former USSR and current Russia, they both hate on the gays. Now it is the Russian Orthodox church, along with the former soviets, who have made even expressing the word gay illegal. So perhaps you may consider atheist USSR and Christian Orthodox Russia as being at opposite ends of the poles, but like most opposites, they are exactly the same. The energy that drives both comes from the same place.

Dan8267 says

The Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust, Bush's entry into the Iraq War. All caused by religion.

Without the Spanish Inquisition there might be no Jamón Serrano today.

Dan,
The extermination of the Jews by the Nazi was not about religion, it was about race/tribe. The Nazi murdered every Jew they could, not just those that went to temple and followed The Law.

The Nazi were not Christian. But, oddly enough, they were an atheistic sexual deviant group into male/male coupling. Weird, huh?

Nazi was not about religion. Nor was it about race and tribe. It was about the will to power of the leaders and the submissiveness of the general public.

Any form of fascism is impossible in a nation of strong individuals.

It is a mistakes to rely on strong leaders. We must have stronger individuals. The greatest good is in each and every of us.

I didn't mean it to sound like the Nazi were linked by religion or race/tribe, I meant that their target for extermination need only be Hebrew.

Do you think the Nazi (before going full strong-arm) used the nanny state mentality to foster the German public into supporting the forced wealth transfer from the Hebrews in Germany? From what I have read it seems like the Nazi got the public on their side by letting it be known that German's would be the shop owners, as soon as the cheating Jews were removed (for their own safety). I think that helps to explain how a public that was smart, and kind, and religious, and free, fell for the Nazi lie.

Bap33 says

I think that helps to explain how a public that was smart, and kind, and religious, and free, fell for the Nazi lie.

Germans are very smart but they are not individualists. People who believing in strict rules and "doing the right things" are prone to manipulation.

When democracy becomes tyranny by majority, we get demo-crazy, and bad things happen.

On the other hand, I believe the Calvinistic worldview served this country well.

Peter P says

When democracy becomes tyranny by majority, we get demo-crazy, and bad things happen.

very good point.
I would imagine this is why we were supposed to follow the constitution until the political monster grew too big, and votes started being purchaced by vote seekers. When that started happenening, the founders expected free Americans to remove the political tyrants and start over from page one of the constitution. We may have missed our chance, or we may not be so bad off that we are ready to get our hands dirty. Or we are lazy, fat, and unwilling. Must be the turkey. lol

michaelsch says

Dan8267 says

False statement, my ass. The Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust, Bush's entry into the Iraq War. All caused by religion.

Especially the Holocaust! Dan, you blind yourself.

Spanish Inquisition never used mass killing.

Nazism: totally Christian

Absolute nonsense. You shoot such things all the time. Either come back to something reasonable or let's stop this discussion.

michaelsch, you have a completely wrong view of history. Of course the Nazis were Christians. That's why they killed the Jews. Christians had a long, long history of blaming the Jews for problems and killing them.

Yeah, the Nazis weren't Christian my ass. Who's that leaving church? Oh yeah, Hitler. And what does he have to say?
“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so”
- Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941

Here's more of Hitler's Christian quotes.

Here are some nice photographs of the fuhrer displaying his Christianity.

In fact, there's a site that details the influence of Christianity on Nazism and it starts with

To deny the influence of Christianity on Hitler and its role in World War II, means that you must ignore history and forever bar yourself from understanding the source of German anti-Semitism and how the WWII atrocities occurred.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

And as for the Spanish Inquisition...

The Spanish Inquisition lasted 356 years from 1478 to 1834. That's 356 years of torturing and killing people. It is estimated that several thousand people died, and that's just the ones we know of. Countless others were tortured and permanently maimed. To in any way defend the Spanish Inquisition or to try to minimize that atrocity is utterly despicable and ridiculous.

And yes, religion was certainly the cause of the Spanish Inquisition. Religion, your religion, was intrinsic to this abomination.

And as for George Bush and the Iraq war....

Bush: God Told Me to Invade Iraq

"I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,' and I did."

Yes, religion played an integral part in the unjustifiable deaths of about one million Iraqi civilians including children.

michaelsch says

It's a totally ignorant BS. It was not a single dictator who killed people, it was an atheist revolution.

Communist revolution, not atheist revolution, you dumb ass. Once again you have absolutely no grasp of history. Communism is an economic system, not a theological belief (or lack of).

Please say that Communism is inherently atheistic, so I can tear a new asshole in you on that.

Bap33 says

The extermination of the Jews by the Nazi was not about religion, it was about race/tribe.

“...the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew.”
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

Not about religion, my ass.

Bap33 says

The Nazi were not Christian. But, oddly enough, they were an atheistic sexual deviant group into male/male coupling. Weird, huh?

The Nazis exterminated homosexuals in mass. In fact, Hitler's view on things was exactly like social conservatives today. Christ, Hitler sounds like he's the founding member of The American Family Association, those assholes.

Nazis on the ground dealt in race not religion per se.

bap is correct here in my estimation.

Nazis were liquidating both jew and christian Polish nationals by the truckload. They wanted their lebensraum and were willing and able to put to the sword all who were on it.

To the extent of totally alienating the Ukrainians who they really needed on their side for the Germans to successfully win against the Russian colossus.

The Germans liquidated a million or three Soviet-bloc POWs by allowing them to starve to death in holding camps.

That was a race war and had nothing to do with religion per se, though the Nazi propagandists did of course cleverly intertwine communism with "Jewish bolshevism".

Oh, I'll concede that Nazism wasn't just about Christianity. Religion is often mixed up with other evils, but to say that the Nazis weren't Christians and that there religion wasn't a strong influence on their evil actions is completely ridiculous. Hitler's platform reads like an American Christian conservative platform.

Freedom is Obedience to Tradition
Woman's World is Husband, Family, Children, Home
Fight Prostitution & Encourage Early Marriage
Media Must be Cleansed of Sexual Filth
Decline of Christianity in Europe is Dangerous
Institution of Marriage Must Be Defended (Fuck, that's DOMA)
Christian Missionaries Should Look to Europe
Burn out the Poison of Immorality (liberal excess)

Fuck, this sounds like Fox News.

Dan8267 says

but to say that the Nazis weren't Christians and that there religion wasn't a strong influence on their evil actions is completely ridiculous.

Dude, the actual Inner Party SS stuff was explicitly anti-Christian.

What the Nazi insiders actually wanted was to forge a new religious movement, with paganistic Germanism at its center.

Bormann to his gauleiters: "National Socialism and Christianity are irreconcilable."

Dan8267 says

Hitler's platform reads like an American Christian conservative platform.

Germany was by and large a Christian nation, and socially conservative at that. Hitler was in no way a Christian but he was a politician who recognized he had to coopt the Christians over time. Kinda like modern-day American conservatives, yes.

Opps! Godwin!

Bellingham Bill says

Hitler was in no way a Christian

You're right. Hitler was a Catholic, not a Christian. Hitler was as much a Christian as the pope.

But you know what, this whole discussion has become a red herring anyway. It has nothing to do with the still unanswered question, "Why the hell is gay sex immoral?".

Dan8267 says

"Why the hell is gay sex immoral?".

just cause they say so, doesn’t make it immoral. voting rethug is immoral however.

Dan8267 says

But you know what, this whole discussion has become a red herring anyway. It has nothing to do with the still unanswered question, "Why the hell is gay sex immoral?".

I gave you my answer, you didn't take it. You simply changed it to an absolute and called it wrong.

Bap33 says

very good point.
I would imagine this is why we were supposed to follow the constitution until the political monster grew too big, and votes started being purchaced by vote seekers. When that started happenening, the founders expected free Americans to remove the political tyrants and start over from page one of the constitution. We may have missed our chance, or we may not be so bad off that we are ready to get our hands dirty. Or we are lazy, fat, and unwilling. Must be the turkey. lol

Both sides are doing the vote buying with our money. And I'm afraid our political system will collapse on itself. Sometimes AF's well humored advice, doesn't seem so far fetched.

Dan8267 says

Of course the Nazis were Christians. That's why they killed the Jews. Christians had a long, long history of blaming the Jews for problems and killing them.

I have a sense of Deja-Vu about this topic.

Just to further Dan's Argument:

Hitler's second treaty during his Government - the first was recognizing Lichtenstein as an independent state - was with the Vatican. It allowed the Vatican to continue operating in the Third Reich so long as the Church supported the Fuhrer. It was signed by future Pope Pius XII on behalf of the then Current Pope, Pius XI.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat

Hatred of Jews was fueled by the Catholic AND Protestants, with the occasional exception of a handful of Popes and other Leaders.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Christian.html

In the Jews and Their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und iren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word antisemitic treatise written in 1543 by the German Reformation leader Martin Luther.

In the treatise, Luther describes Jews as a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut".[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies

Jews presented as Pigs (and the Torah being received from a Pig's Vagina) were a common theme on Church and Cathedral walls in Germany - both Catholic and Protestant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judensau

Besides the Jews, other main boogeymen of the religious tend to be Masons and Jesuits; with Protestants and many Catholics hating both equally. It's not a surprise, because both groups tend to uphold knowledge generally, as well as the independence and sovereign status of various cultures.

PS The only Nazi Leader excommunicated by the Church was Joseph Goebbels.

Why?

For marrying a protestant.

You can't make this shit up.

curious2 says

There aren't any prohibitions against homosexuality per se until you get to Paul

Actually I think there is a pretty harsh statement about it in Leviticus somehwere, which is very early in the bible.

Prodigious list of clear and suspected anti-homosexual bits from the OT:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gay/ot_list.html

Interesting one for any jeans or trouser wearing women:
"The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD." Deuteronomy 22:5

Note that "Abomination" is the SAME EXACT WORD used in OT for homosexuality:
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Lev.20:13

It's also a crime to mix fabrics. So no wearing synthetic socks with your cotton pants.

thunderlips11 says

Hitler's second treaty during his Government

this was done as a quid per quo for the Centrist Party (all-Catholic) voting with the Nazis to giver Hitler dictatorial powers for 4 years via the Enabling Act.

Conservative Catholics were generally worth coopting and not alienating along with the socialists and communists, who were the Nazis avowed enemies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_Party#The_Enabling_Act

and the next section goes into how Catholics were actually being disempowered in 1933 Germany by Hitler.

Nazi Germany also put "Free Thinker" societies -- athiests -- to the wall too.

They wanted to indoctrinate people into their new social order, not have people maintain their own individual perspectives and intellectual communities and external allegiances.

curious2 says

There aren't any prohibitions against homosexuality per se until you get to Paul

Actually I think there is a pretty harsh statement about it in Leviticus somehwere, which is very early in the bible.

Patrick, you've quoted me out of context, which isn't really fair. If you look at what I wrote in context, and at what Leviticus actually says, you'll see that the condemnation isn't necessarily of homosexuality per se. Read literally (and fundamentalists claim to beleve the Bible literally), it actually condemns bisexual orgies:

curious2 says

BTW now that we've mentioned adultery and the 10 commandments, it may be worth remembering that Leviticus condemned bisexuality (possibly only threesomes), not homosexuality per se. An earlier comment mentioned the link between promiscuity and HIV. If you look at the statistics, a majority of people with HIV are women and children. The women tend to get it from their cheating husbands, and most of the children were born with it. If there is overlap between Biblical rules and disease (remembering that the germ theory of disease was not understood during Biblical times), then disease might be one reason for the repeated prohibitions against adultery. There aren't any prohibitions against homosexuality per se until you get to Paul, who by his own account disagreed with nearly everybody, especially the early Christians.

Here are the two references from Leviticus:

18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind....

20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman....

If you ask Google to define "as," you get the following:

Read literally, which is what fundamentalists claim to do, it says man shall not also lie with mankind at the same time as with womankind. (If you read "as" more broadly to mean "to the extent or degree" then it might apply to bisexuality, but still not homosexuality per se.) There are other condemnations in the Bible, including condemning women wearing men's clothes (e.g. trousers) as noted by Thunderlips, but those aren't about gay sex per se. There are also plenty of other "abominations" and restrictions in Leviticus, e.g. eating pork or shellfish, handling pigskin (football), wearing clothing of mixed fiber, and Jews dining with Gentiles. Leviticus mainly differentiates the Jews from the Gentiles, so it is a misuse to cite it as a source for broader morality or laws of general application. Some people mistakenly call all of Leviticus' prohibitions "laws", but most are not laws per se; to the contrary, Leviticus says you must have one law, both for yourselves and the stranger who lives among you. Leviticus is like telling the Amish or the Hasidim to dress a certain way and renounce certain things so they'll stay separate; it isn't intended as a law on everybody, and it would defeat the purpose if everybody then dressed the same way and renounced cars in favor of horse-drawn carriages. The only express prohibition in Leviticus against everyone is child sacrifice, which applies both to the Jews and everyone in the area; Muslims violate that literally for their "honor killings" and other denominations ignore it figuratively when they cut off kids who leave the faith or otherwise transgress against it. Many people claim to follow the Bible, but they don't really; for example, they wear clothing of mixed fiber, cut the corners of their beards, and ignore other prohibitions from Leviticus, but then fixate on their misreading of Leviticus 18:22 for reasons of their own (Bap).

Dan8267 says

The Spanish Inquisition lasted 356 years from 1478 to 1834. That's 356 years of torturing and killing people. It is estimated that several thousand people died, and that's just the ones we know of.

The Spanish Inquisition was a court, sic. It was bad, it was torturing and killing people, but it never did mass killings. There are other examples, like crusades, Bartholomew's night etc, but they are unrelated to the Inquisition.

In 356 years it killed about 40,000 people and each case was documented. Yes, that's horrible, but we talk about 356 years and the area much bigger than just Spain.

During their suppression of Vendee revolts French revolutionaries killed hundreds of thousand of civilians. Apparently it was the first genocide in modern history and it was commited by the first atheist state in modern history.

As of the 30 years war, which indeed started as a religious war, interestingly enough, so called Catholic France fought more on the protestant side, thus proving that the religion was more or less a formal pretext for the war, while real reasons were political, social etc.

This is my last post on the matter: as I said you take all Nazi related staff out of context. Since I think you are smart enough to understand that you do not look for the truth but only look for supporting arguments, IMO there is no use to keep talking about it.

michaelsch says

This is my last post on the matter: as I said you take all Nazi related staff out of context.

Heavens, no! we would not want to take any of this "out of context":

And of course we would only want to use full "context" when discussing why Hitler would want to re-institute using a cross (yes the same cross that originated with the Catholic order of Teutonic Knights) for the highest military medals: