patrick.net

mell says

Me, me! I want to stop it by going in the middle - yeah baby!

Only stop it temporary, I suppose? More actions will ensue. ;-)

Dan8267 says

Bap33 says

end the abuse of those born with defective minds and/or bodies that result in male/male coupling. End the abuse. Abuse of humans is immoral.

The only ones abusing gay men are the ones demonizing them.

the men you call "gay" are suffering from a mental disorder, a gland disorder, or both. Calling for the public to accept the open activity of mentally/physically challenged men being abused by mentally disturbed sadistic/sodomistic men is demonic.

You have failed to show how a court of law would ever prove someone to be gay (or straight). If you do a particular sex act one, two, or a dozen times, does that make one "gay"? If you (a male) only want to dominate and mount other males, does that make you "gay" ?? Even if you never once do that act?
What makes a human "gay" (or straight) -- the MENTAL CONDITION or the PHYSICAL ACT?? Ofcourse the only way to prove this gayness that you are so proud of is for there to be an act commeted ... just like rape or robbery. The ACT is what is immoral, not the mental or gland disorder that causes male humans to perform them. Stop the abuse of humans suffering from a disorder. Heal them.

non "gay" males do very "gay" activity in prisons, each and every day. At the same time, male suffering from the mental and/or glad disorder that normally results in male/male coupling are able to live life without commiting the ACT. Just like someone born with a desire to rape or burn things or commit robbery is able to fight the urge and live a life in freedom. Not everyone commits the ACT that their body/mind wants them to, inorder to happily live in society. That may be what seperates us from the animals - self control.

Bap33 says

the men you call "gay" are suffering from a mental disorder, a gland disorder, or both.

No.

Bap33 says

You have failed to show how a court of law would ever prove someone to be gay

You have failed to show how a court of law could prove someone to be straight. What's the point?

Bap33 says

If you do a particular sex act one, two, or a dozen times, does that make one "gay"?
* * * * *
non "gay" males do very "gay" activity in prisons, each and every day.

You need to read this:
http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/research/ak-hhscale.html

Bap33 says

What makes a human "gay" (or straight) -- the MENTAL CONDITION or the PHYSICAL ACT??

Same thing that makes a human "straight", a mental condition that may lead to a physical act.

Bap33 says

Just like someone born with a desire to rape or burn things or commit robbery is able to fight the urge and live a life in freedom.

No, just like someone born with a desire for opposite sex relationships.

Dan8267 says

Bap33 says

end the abuse of those born with defective minds and/or bodies that result in male/male coupling. End the abuse. Abuse of humans is immoral.

The only ones abusing gay men are the ones demonizing them.

Yes, and for some this would be self-abuse.

Bap33 says

At the same time, male suffering from the mental and/or glad disorder that normally results in male/male coupling are able to live life without commiting the ACT... Not everyone commits the ACT that their body/mind wants them to, inorder to happily live in society.

Bap, your comments make it obvious that you are suffering from a mental disorder, but you don't seem happy. The disorder is the abusive religion that Fred Phelps and his ilk have programmed into you. Instead of perpetuating Phelps' cycle of abuse, just go out and find a better man. Instead of obsessing over "male/male coupling," and making an ass of yourself online, put in some lube and find a man who is willing to wear a condom.

Bap33 says

the men you call "gay" are suffering from a mental disorder, a gland disorder, or both.

You keep asserting this, but you never show any evidence or reasoning to that effect.

On the other hand, I can clearly show the reasoning that belief in god is a mental disorder. Belief in a fictitious being who interferes in the history of man is clearly a delusion, and delusions are by definition a mental disorder no matter how socially accepted the delusion is. If you think you're having a conservations with someone who doesn't exist, that's a delusion.

How is homosexuality a mental disorder? Bap finds something icky, therefore anyone who likes it must have a metal disorder. I find broccoli disgusting, that doesn't make people who like it crazy.

leo707 says

Yes, and for some this would be self-abuse.

And I'd be fine with calling such hypocritical immoral and unethical, and perhaps even mentally disturbed. But in that case, the mental damage is probably inflicted by gay-bashers and not inherent to being gay.

Dan8267 says

You keep asserting this, but you never show any evidence or reasoning to that effect.

I tried, but nobody can change your opinion. If you refuse to see male/male coupling as deviant behavior, then so be it. God forgives you.

Bap33 says

Dan8267 says

You keep asserting this, but you never show any evidence or reasoning to that effect.

I tried, but nobody can change your opinion. If you refuse to see male/male coupling as deviant behavior, then so be it. God forgives you.

Bap, variations make humanity stronger.

Bap33 says

If you refuse to see male/male coupling as deviant behavior, then so be it. God forgives you.

How very kind of you to speak for God. I'm sure the omnipotent creator of the universe will appreciate that. Probably he/she/it was eating peanut butter, and couldn't say anything, so you really helped out.

As for deviance though, nothing compares to your ice dome in the sky. You, Bop69, are by far the most deviant. And your handle reminds me of a song about something you probably do a lot while thinking of male/male coupling, Cyndi Lauper's "She-Bop":

http://www.youtube.com/embed/KFq4E9XTueY

Sorry I couldn't find a man singing "he-bop" for you, but enjoy your self-abuse :)

behavior variations keep prisons full

Ugly people keep prisons full.

ALEC keeps prisons full, transferring your tax dollars to ALEC members.

Remarkably, ALEC's slogan is "Limited Government · Free Markets · Federalism." That is the exact opposite of the truth. ALEC expands the drug war, including national minimum sentencing.

Bap33 says

Dan8267 says

You keep asserting this, but you never show any evidence or reasoning to that effect.

I tried, but nobody can change your opinion. If you refuse to see male/male coupling as deviant behavior, then so be it. God forgives you.

Bap, you still don't get it. Chocolate ice cream tastes better than strawberrry is an opinion. Football is more exciting than baseball is an opinion. The Nicks suck is an -- ok, bad example.

But whether or not homosexuality is a mental disorder, isn't an opinion. You shouldn't be trying to change my opinion on this, because I don't have one. This is a matter of fact, not opinion. Either the statement is true or it is false, and determining which is based entirely on facts, not opinions.

The problem is that you insist on reaching conclusion X no matter what, and are looking for anything to justify X, and when you can't find anything, you still assert X. The right thing to do is to accept whatever conclusion the body of evidence in modern medicine implies.

curious2 says

Bap33 says

If you refuse to see male/male coupling as deviant behavior, then so be it. God forgives you.

How very kind of you to speak for God. I'm sure the omnipotent creator of the universe will appreciate that. Probably he/she/it was eating peanut butter, and couldn't say anything, so you really helped out.

Remember, curious2, what rejection of god really means to the faithful. When Bap33 says god forgives me, he really means that he forgives me.

Of course, what Bap33 doesn't get is that my "refusal" to believe that homosexual sex is deviant and unhealthy is based on facts not some irrational closed-mindedness. I'm more than willing to accept that breathing is an unhealthy deviant behavior if there was convincing evidence to that fact. Skepticism and closed-mindedness isn't the same thing. A closed-minded person cannot be convinced of a statement no matter the evidence. A skeptic demands to be convinced by evidence. I'm a skeptic; Bap's closed-minded.

Bap33 says

behavior variations keep prisons full

Thankfully, most countries don't arrest people for homosexuality any more. To do so would be a violation of human rights and would attract international condemnation.

Dan8267 says

Examples of unnatural behavior common in human beings... You know, shit that other animals don't do and that our Stone Age ancestors didn't either.

- Skydiving
- Flying in giant metal machines
- Boating
- Shooting guns (there's fucking nothing less natural than a gun)
- holding court
- Congress (ok, bad example, that is deviant behavior)
- surgery
- marriage (including the heterosexual type)
- imprisonment (oh, wait, I already mentioned marriage)
- driving
- NASCAR
- writing
- maintaining a police force

So, how exactly is unnatural behavior evil?

But Dan, no one is saying all unnatural behavior is evil. You can't take a single example and turn it into all or nothing every time. That's just not a good argument. Nor is any innovation is evil, though some can seem rather stupid.

Homosexuality is a world view that majority in the society do not agree with in the way homosexuals like to be seen. Homosexuals, are men or women who are disabled in certain ways. And physical or mental disorders should not be celebrated like the left wing media likes to pretend, merely accepted and hopefully cured.

FortWayne says

But Dan, no one is saying all unnatural behavior is evil

Actually, Bap's argument that homosexuality is evil because it's unnatural rests on the assumption that all natural behavior is good and all unnatural behavior is evil. As such, my counter-examples apply.

Of course a rational person would not associate "natural" with good or evil and "unnatural" with the opposite. Good/evil and natural/unnatural are clearly independent and unrelated concepts.

Bap's argument that homosexuality is evil because it's unnatural is also flawed because homosexuality is far more common in nature than monogamy, and he's not accepting that monogamy is evil. If a person's set of beliefs contradict themselves, they can't be right. Contradictions only exist in mistakes. In order for a philosophy or moral code to be valid, it must in the very least be self-consistent. That's not the only requirement, but it is a requisite.

Dan8267 says

Examples of unnatural behavior common in human beings... You know, shit that other animals don't do and that our Stone Age ancestors didn't either.

- marriage (including the heterosexual type)

* * * * *
- maintaining a police force

There are animals that go through relatively elaborate courtship rituals then become monogamous partners. "Natural" marriage?

As far a police go, don't soldier ants "protect and serve?"

FortWayne says

Homosexuality is a world view that majority in the society do not agree with in the way homosexuals like to be seen.

Well, enjoy that while it lasts. Based on the trends I've seen in my own life its clear to me that in 20 years or so homosexuality will be totally accepted by all of mainstream society (at least in the first world), everyone will see that there are no negative repercussions, and everyone will wonder what the fuss was all about.

Dan8267 says

Bap33 says

behavior variations keep prisons full

Thankfully, most countries don't arrest people for homosexuality any more. To do so would be a violation of human rights and would attract international condemnation.

it is impossible for someone to be arrested for being a male/male coupler in any country. Impossible. Those who suffer from the defects that result in male/male coupling can only be arrested for being "suspected" of performing male/male coupling, and if there is any legal system in place that requires proof, then they can only be convicted if they are found in a mounted condition. At that point they are guilty of performing an unnatural sex act, but even then there is no proof they are a "homosexual". The only proof is that they engage in male/male coupling. So, the laws "should" be against public/known activity, and not try to guess the motivation of the participants. Same with any other law such as theft, murder, rape, ext ext. The reason why a person does somthing should not apply. The fact a person commits any act (legal, moral, kind) indicates they were born with a pre-disposition. Being born with a pre-disposition is not an excuse for behavior.

leo707 says

There are animals that go through relatively elaborate courtship rituals then become monogamous partners. "Natural" marriage?

Courtship rituals are much more akin to dating than marriage. Marriage is essentially a legal contract and other animals don't have those. Nor do other animals have tax codes with deductions for marriage. Finally, courtship rituals don't typically involve monogamy, whereas marriage usually does. Notable exceptions include newts.

leo707 says

As far a police go, don't soldier ants "protect and serve?"

Armies and police forces serve different purposes. Warfare definitely is abundant in nature. Jane Goodall even recorded instances of chimps engaging in systematic warfare with weaker tribes (troops).

Bap33 says

At that point they are guilty of performing an unnatural sex act, but even then there is no proof they are a "homosexual". The only proof is that they engage in male/male coupling. So, the laws "should" be against public/known activity, and not try to guess the motivation of the participants. Same with any other law such as theft, murder, rape, ext ext

You're making no sense. Theft, murder, and rape are all natural events, they are common in nature. Marriage is not a natural event. It does not occur anywhere in nature. Arresting a person for committing an "unnatural" act makes no sense. For example, shitting on the ground in natural; shitting in a toilet is not. Would you arrest the person using the toilet or the sidewalk?

The most unnatural act by far is organized religion. No other species pays a subset of its members to hold forth about invisible beings and their purported will. The damage can be observed in Bop69, who is trapped in a cycle of abuse that was inflicted upon him and that he inflicts now upon himself and others.

An Iraqi Shi'ite Muslim child gashes his forehead with a sword during a ceremony marking Ashura in Baghdad

FortWayne says

Homosexuality is a world view that majority in the society do not agree with in the way homosexuals like to be seen.

So were the pilgrims that fled Europe and founded the US. Then they became mainstream.

FortWayne says

Homosexuality is a world view that majority in the society do not agree with in the way homosexuals like to be seen.

A sexual orientation isn't a "world view." Most Americans want to be seen as equal citizens, and a majority do support the equal protection of the laws, including for same-sex couples.

bdrasin says

everyone will see that there are no negative repercussions

I'd say the half-million or so US deaths from AIDS are a definite negative repercussion. And those deaths were mostly a direct result of unprotected promiscuous gay sex.

Which is all an excellent argument for gay marriage really.

those deaths were mostly a direct result of

The most frequent cause of HIV transmission is heterosexual sex. A majority of people with HIV are women, and typically they got it from their adulterous husbands, whom they trusted. The husbands typically got it from committing adultery with female prostitutes. Adultery and IV drug use are definitely risk factors for HIV. Same-sex marriage isn't. More than 20 million people have died of AIDS, and more than 30 million are living with HIV, mostly women.

This thread is about morality of "gay sex." If you want to use AIDS deaths as evidence of immorality, then you would have to conclude that gay sex between lesbians is the most moral sex of all, because it has the lowest rate of HIV transmission.

curious2 says

The most frequent cause is heterosexual transmission.

In Africa, not here.

curious2 says

Adultery and IV drug use are definitely risk factors for HIV. Same-sex marriage isn't.

Being a promiscous gay man is the highest risk factor of all.

But we agree that same-sex marriage is a good way to stop the spread of AIDS.

In America, IV drug use is probably the highest risk factor, and being black correlates with a 4x increase in risk, but I agree promiscuity is definitely a risk factor.

And yes, I agree same-sex marriage would help in reducing promiscuity, so it would help reduce the spread of HIV.

Another issue regarding HIV transmission in America is DTC advertising by drug companies. The ads are amazing. "I told my mother I got HIV, she told me that she loved me." DTC drug ads are probably a risk factor for HIV in the same way that Coke & Pepsi ads are a risk factor for obesity. The drug companies aren't interested in a vaccine. Some vaccines work retroactively, e.g. smallpox. Nobody cares what the risk factors for smallpox were, or attaches moral significance to them, because it's gone now.

bdrasin says

everyone will see that there are no negative repercussions

I'd say the half-million or so US deaths from AIDS are a definite negative repercussion. And those deaths were mostly a direct result of unprotected promiscuous gay sex.

Well, its probably true that not having women in the equation to slow down the male libido tends to lead to more promiscuous sex, but that's really nothing to do with marriage. Encouraging gays to stay closeted if anything will lead to more promiscuous sex with less forethought to possible repercussions.

Which is what I think you mean by:

Which is all an excellent argument for gay marriage really.

I agree. Encouraging long term, mutually supportive relationships is really the best thing for everyone.

And those deaths were mostly a direct result of unprotected promiscuous gay sex.
Which is all an excellent argument for gay marriage really.

Do you suggest that by getting publicly/legally married, the deviant couples will be better at not being promisuous, and stay chaste, vs normal married couples? I submit that there is nothing wrote or enforced in any State of America that keeps deviants (or normal people) from being committed, and true partners, for life .. not one thing .. and I also submit that there is no function of a public coupling/marriage that will increase the lifespan or dedication found in any partnership - deviant or normal.

Dan,
There is a "reason" society should not want people to crap in public access places, but the planet has many that do. There is a "reason" why society should not want people that suffer from a deviant mind, or defective glands, to be abused by unnatural coupling, but the planet has many that do.

bdrasin says

Encouraging long term, mutually supportive relationships is really the best thing for everyone.

amen!

True, but we should avoid policies that are against the grains of human nature.

mell says

FortWayne says

Homosexuality is a world view that majority in the society do not agree with in the way homosexuals like to be seen.

So were the pilgrims that fled Europe and founded the US. Then they became mainstream.

I wouldn't compare pilgrims to homosexuals. The poor have always fled the tyranny. Homosexuals aren't living in tyranny, but they want all of us to accept them as normal and that won't happen... because they are not normal.

Bap33 says

Dan,
There is a "reason" society should not want people to crap in public access places, but the planet has many that do. There is a "reason" why society should not want people that suffer from a deviant mind, or defective glands, to be abused by unnatural coupling, but the planet has many that do.

Your analogy is wrong. There is no more reason to associate homosexual sex with "crapping in public" than to associate heterosexual sex with "crapping in public.

Secondly, the gay bashers of the word aren't acting out of concern for homosexuals. The assholes that murdered Mathew Shepard weren't trying to help him. The assholes holding up "God hate fags" signs aren't trying to help gays. The assholes opposing marriage equality aren't doing so for the benefit of gays.

As such, your argument that demonizing gays is for their own good is as hollow as the, once popular, argument that "the negro must be kept in check for his own good least his bestial nature take over his behavior". A lot of people in the 19th century advocated that philosophy and laws based on it, and justified that bigotry as "The White Man's Burden". What you are advocating is "The Straight Man's Burden", and it is just as ridiculous.

FortWayne says

I wouldn't compare pilgrims to homosexuals. The poor have always fled the tyranny. Homosexuals aren't living in tyranny, but they want all of us to accept them as normal and that won't happen... because they are not normal.

Why not? If it is tyranny for the Church of England to force its moral beliefs onto other Christian sects, then why isn't it tyranny for various Christian sects to force their moral beliefs onto homosexuals? Oh, because this time your group isn't the one being suppressed. I suspect that if you had a gay son or daughter, you'd be a lot more accepting of homosexuality, just like Dick Cheney is.

Homosexuals have been burned alive at the stake, lynched and hung from trees, imprisoned, forced to undergo chemical castration, unwarranted brain surgery, electroshock "therapy", and imposed medication. To say that homosexuals haven't been persecuted, including in the USA, is absolutely wrong.

I'm not forcing anything, homosexuality is not normal. And I leave it at that.

Maybe a dog or a cat doesn't like being called a dog or a cat, but it is what it is.

FortWayne says

I'm not forcing anything, homosexuality is not normal.

You might not be, but the state most certainly is forcing homosexuals to be deprived of many civil rights including:
- marriage
- paying higher taxes
- not getting spousal benefits including insurance, veterans, widowers
- not having the same visitation or power of attorney rights as straight married couples

I'm sure the list goes on and on. This is just what I remember off the top of my head.

As for homosexuality not being "normal", what exactly constitutes normal and why should "not normal" be considered socially, legally, or morally unacceptable? Heroism, by definition, is not normal.

FortWayne says

mell says

FortWayne says

Homosexuality is a world view that majority in the society do not agree with in the way homosexuals like to be seen.

So were the pilgrims that fled Europe and founded the US. Then they became mainstream.

I wouldn't compare pilgrims to homosexuals. The poor have always fled the tyranny. Homosexuals aren't living in tyranny, but they want all of us to accept them as normal and that won't happen... because they are not normal.

I somewhat agree with that in the way that they are not living in tyranny right now in most countries of the world (in some they do), but it's always a changing world. As with regards to normalcy I would say the distribution of homosexuality is normal throughout nature, but overall it is a minority. If you want to call the majority normal and the minority not normal, fine. But keep in mind that there are areas in the world right now where women and gays are stoned to death routinely, kids forced to marry whoever their parents choose and much more where those acts are considered - at least locally - "normal".