patrick.net

pkennedy says

The MLS can't manipulate data because all the data will get manipulated in the same way. If you've never looked at it, you might get "manipulated" but beyond that, it's open to everyone to view.

Er huh? So I can type in MLS website and pull up all the listings on the MLS? Oh wait, I'm NOT a realtor, so I can't even access it. Nice public transparency.

Lets ignore the fact that houses that been on the market for six months that are re-listed get a new MLS number and WOW look, its new on the market, better rush to get this one, it's hot. Lets look at why they re-instated there sales figures for the last 5 years.

http://www.gotoby.com/news/nar_answers_questions_about_restated_home_sales.htm

If you look at the website, The first question is why where the sales figures re-benchmarked down?

They claim a comparison of there data and court house deed transfers. If there data was correct to begin with, why would there be a difference.

I believe the only way to make the market look better today is to make the market look worse in the past. This way you can claim the poor home sales today are actually pretty good and getting better. Better run out and BUY now before prices increase to unaffordable levels.

Next they are claiming there sales figures are off because houses sold by "For Sale By Owners" are not included in there sales figures. This makes sense I will admit, but so long as those numbers benefited the NAR's rosey picture the market is hot, better go out and buy now, they were ignored. It's only after they need a way to make the market today to appear better than those figures are even considered.

OK, how about this as a business model:

* buyers enter the zip code, br, and price they are interested in, along with a blurb
* sellers enter the zip code, br, and price they want to sell at, along with a blurb and photo of the house

So you get two columns, sellers on the left and buyers on the right, for each zip code. Searching by zip, br, and price would be really easy.

Buyer and sellers then privately chat on Patrick.net to see if they are interested in talking more about an FSBO sale -- without any realtors being involved. The private chat gets around the problem that people don't like to talk about such things in public. And I could recommend flat-fee appraisers, inspectors, and lawyers to do the deal, though I don't think I could legally get referral fees from them.

If I get enough people using it (a few thousand), eventually I could charge $5/month for listings and that would be plenty to support the site.

From experience though, I think it will be hard to get sellers to list on Patrick.net. What would encourage them? Not paying any realtor commission would seem to be a motive, but realtors are expert at inducing fear.

Maybe I could also automatically distribute the seller's listing to Craigslist and other sites for them as a free service to help draw sellers in.

CaptainShuddup says

BULL CRAP!

Trulia, and Zillow are lagging the Multiple except in For Sale by Owners. You can always work directly with a seller.

The Multiple is a membership group. They own, and control the data. It's not a public forum until it hits a site like redfin, Trulia, or Zillow.

What every one objects to is the Real Estate agents who go out every frigging day and look for properties for sale. These people are listing agents. They will always know more than any one else about what is going on in the market place.

You see listing agents at open houses, but you never think that these people know what's going on. People avoid talking with agents who may have inside information.

I'm talking about the real workers in the Real Estate industry, the ones who have twenty or thirty listings in your area.

The people who work in Real Estate are professionals, and interact in a professional manner. For them there is always more than enough business.

So with, or without the Multiple Listing Service there are people who work in your area finding properties for sale, and finding buyers for them.

realtors are expert at inducing fear.

The word is exposure to the largest buyer pool. You would have a limited amount of buyers looking at your site on any given day. Buyers also want to see everything, so you would be offering a limited service.

From experience though, I think it will be hard to get sellers to list on Patrick.net. What would encourage them? Not paying any realtor commission would seem to be a motive, but realtors are expert at inducing fear.

A. The website would have to be called something other than Patrick.net, something a little more catchy.

B. The service would have to be free. At least for the first couple of years. Once the website builds up a sufficient following, then you can transition into a premium website that charges money.

In short an investment in time and money is required with no guarantee of a return on your investment. The internet is littered with failed websites everything from Auctions and job listing sites to porn and social media.

CaptainShuddup says

I was the local leading authority on every home with in a ten mile radius.

Bull Crap!

How many times did you get out of the car to knock a door of a property that may have been ready to come on the market? How many sellers did you call who might be interested in selling?
How many sellers called you asking for your advise about selling? Did you publish articles on forums about your expertise about your are? Where you marketing yourself as an area expert?

All those annoying things that Real Estate weasels do add up to market exposure you have no incentive to have. There again no seller has an incentive to talk to only you, except saving that commission, but will the next person pay more than you're willing to?

You're just guessing because you did it your way, right, or wrong.

Let's put it to a vote about a buyer, anyone out there, who would like a public forum of your home buying process.

You, the buyer, agree to have your home buying experience chronicled on Patrick.net, in real time, while it's happening.

You could get advice, and maybe people would submit For Sale by Owners to you.

You can make up a persona, and keep the addresses secret, but your daily experiences would be put into a forum.

David Losh says

How many times did you get out of the car to knock a door of a property that may have been ready to come on the market? How many sellers did you call who might be interested in selling?
How many sellers called you asking for your advise about selling? Did you publish articles on forums about your expertise about your are? Where you marketing yourself as an area expert?

I think the more accurate question would be,
"How many times did a Realtor actually contact the owner of the houses, I mentioned I was interested in?"

The answer would be probably none. They all had their own agenda to pawn off on me. A list of houses they all had, with the highest profit margins on them.

Every house I was interested in, that I told a realtor to inquire for me. Always came back and told me, they already had contracts on them. This was in a three year window that I was home shopping.
Most everyone of those houses were still either vacant and abandoned, or still had a for sale sign out front long after I found my house.

David Losh says

You, the buyer, agree to have your home buying experience chronicled on Patrick.net, in real time, while it's happening.

You could get advice, and maybe people would submit For Sale by Owners to you.

You can make up a persona, and keep the addresses secret, but your daily experiences would be put into a forum.

OK, I proposed it, here:

http://patrick.net/?p=1219707

I'll make sure it goes out in the email tonight.

There were plenty of home buying experiences chronicled on Patnet.
I can't recall one positive realtor experience though.
Bernie from Week end at Bernie's would be a great Realtor.
That's all you need is a guy with the lics.

CaptainShuddup says

There were plenty of home buying experiences chronicled on Patnet.

It would be fun to follow someone from idea all the way through eventual purchase though. Hopefully the purchase of a good deal, meaning less than the cost of renting. It would be depressing to see someone blow years of labor and then also reward realtors for screwing them over when they could have simply rented for much less.

CaptainShuddup says

There were plenty of home buying experiences chronicled on Patnet.

It would be fun to follow someone from idea all the way through eventual purchase though.

And we could post there photo and vote on "Smart or Not" (similar to the "Hot or not" website).

There simply aren't enough people involved on patrick.net for this to work. Take your numbers and start crunching them. Housing within a zip code varies by a huge amount. Housing on a street varies by a huge amount! Pricing, layouts, age, size, bedrooms, etc. There are so many variables. Now you're going to need to find a seller and a buyer in the same area that matches up with that criteria.

Then you have to remember that these two people need to come to terms. That means, these two people have to work out a deal without insulting and pissing each other off. Most people can't bargain or negotiate on simple items in life. So, maybe you magically find two people on your site, and then they rub each other the wrong way. This is where realtors come into play, and one reason they don't want buyers and sellers meeting. Because they ruin deals.

If people on average sell every 7 years, unless they're on their 3rd or 4th house, they likely have no idea of what to look for, what to do, or how to proceed with a FSBO. It could take them 6 months or more to get financing lined up and in place.

pkennedy says

There are so many variables. Now you're going to need to find a seller and a buyer in the same area that matches up with that criteria.

There is always a chicken and egg problem in starting these things. I think the key is:

1. Make it super duper easy to post your house or post what you want to buy.
2. Give them some value that the mainstream system is not giving them.

One value is in dealing directly, knowing your realtor is not screwing you over somehow for their own profit, and knowing that neither side has to pay the 6%.

What is other value I can provide that the mainstream system does not?

One suggestion: Make it super duper easy to FIND what you want to buy.

Many of the websites I (used to) use don't have enough search criteria for my non-negotiables. For example, I insist on a 3 car garage on the house I’ll purchase, but almost no searches let me specify that.

When I have to click on every 3/2 that has a pool to find the front yard photo then scan the listing to see if it possibly has a tandem 3-car that's not visible from the photo, the website becomes too tedious for me to use. Bye bye. Perfect reason why I won’t use Craigslist.

Check boxes and keyword searches are amazingly helpful. Some things you have to have a check box for, like my garage requirement, as a keyword search just won’t work.

I've sold several houses myself and really enjoyed the experience, I would love to buy without a realtor, as long as I found a seller without a realtor with a house I wanted.

exflirt says

One suggestion: Make it super duper easy to FIND what you want to buy.

Many of the websites I (used to) use don't have enough search criteria for my non-negotiables. For example, I insist on a 3 car garage on the house I’ll purchase, but almost no searches let me specify that.

Hmmm, how to get that info? I'd think the seller, his agent, or a neighbor or former resident would have to enter that.

Many of the websites I (used to) use don't have enough search criteria for my non-negotiables. For example, I insist on a 3 car garage on the house I’ll purchase, but almost no searches let me specify that.

Hmmm, how to get that info? I'd think the seller, his agent, or a neighbor or former resident would have to enter that.

This is a full listing view of an MLS listing. As you can see there's every field you can imagine to search by, including number of garages. It can be set up so that when anything that matches your criteria it emails you the listing as soon as it hits the MLS. Public websites are a joke. You get what you pay/work for.

CaptainShuddup says

Always came back and told me, they already had contracts on them.

You would never get an argument from me that there are thousands of bad Real Estate agents. The Board of Realtors went on a membership drive that brought in all kinds of yahoos who don't know anything.

There are however hundreds of agents that are well worth the commission, and do get out of the car every day to talk people into selling a property.

Real Estate is a two way street. There are buyer, and listing agents. There are good buyer's agents who network in a community, and with other Real Estate agents.

Most people don't take the time to look for a good agent. They are so focussed on the home search that they by pass the search for a good agent.

You know who the Top Producers are, but do you know who's good? Do you have those conversations with agents, or are you too busy looking at the internet?

To find the home you want you have to be out there. You need to knock on doors, answer inquiries to your advertising, and be involved in the community.

Are you really seeking out these kinds of agents, or avoiding them?

pkennedy says

unless they're on their 3rd or 4th house, they likely have no idea of what to look for, what to do, or how to proceed with a FSBO.

When I was working for a FSBO company I was amazed how people managed to work things out. If both sides are motivated things just fall into place. If one of the two sides isn't really motivated then you need other parties who are motivated such as a Realtor to facilitate things.

It wouldn't take long before the "pros" got in there and ruined it anyway. House buyers would expect they're getting a good deal, but with such limited inventory they're not going to have the best places to compare against.

The pros will flip a house, jack up the prices and sell to someone for much more than that 6% would have cost them.

At first, there will be no one. You'll have to fight that battle for a very long time. You'll have to dump a lot of money into advertising this new way of buying and selling a house. Lots of it.

After you get some people, you'll start getting the pros in there, and you'll have to fight that battle, while losing the first battle again, as people stop using your "scam" system.

What you could offer is an MLS listed property, with no realtors on one end. However, it won't take long before the MLS decides you're hurting their model and boots you. Not until you're so ingrained in their system and sunk so much money into it, that they can kill your company by turning it off for just a few months.

This is not a battle for the shallow pockets to attack, even deep pockets aren't likely to fight it for very long.

CaptainShuddup says

Furthermore, after I quit consulting Realtors, I still had realtors emailing me MLS. Every house I was even remotely interested in, I had already seen weeks before on either... Craigslist, Zillow, Ziprealty, Trulia or Realtor.com.
MLS is totally useless.

I have no idea why it would take you a week to get listings. I've taught the MLS to Realtors for the past ten years. I know it like the back of my hand. It was never delayed. Listings show on the MLS within seconds of becoming active. In fact it sends out emails to clients so fast their first emails usually have no photos added yet. When the photos are added, even if it's ten minutes later, the system sends another email to them with photos (if the Realtor configures it properly.) What can get me pissed off is when it takes days for the listing to show up in realtor.com because if it doesn't show up there it's not going to syndicate to all the other lesser sites you mentioned. Sometimes I have to call realtor.com to find out what the problem is.

The MLS (the local board) is the PRIMARY SOURCE where the data originates. Realtor.com (the national board) is the secondary source of data. All other sites feed from realtor.com.

Patrick should consider setting up a clearinghouse for all the FSBO sites which are all independents. They may be doing this already, but bringing them all together into one searchable directory (big job), would create a whole new ballgame. The trick is to get people on board, may take a year or two but it's the only way to start putting the MLS and NAR out of business.

everything says

Patrick should consider setting up a clearinghouse for all the FSBO sites which are all independents. They may be doing this already, but bringing them all together into one searchable directory (big job), would create a whole new ballgame. The trick is to get people on board, may take a year or two but it's the only way to start putting the MLS and NAR out of business.

If the directory only has FSBO listings then how is it going put NAR out of business? No one who seriously needs to sell their home is going to screw around trying to sell it FSBO. People who sell FSBO either are selling on the MLS too, have major issues with Realtors, have plenty of time to experiment, or have been terribly misinformed.

Back in the day, I sold over a thousand FSBO (buyowner.com) ad programs to sellers. Only around 20% sold without having to resort to the MLS. Many I listed side by side in both the MLS and FSBO with the FSBO listed 6% cheaper and still most sold first through the MLS.

Miracles do happen. Sometimes all it takes is a yard sign and someone in the neighborhood comes along and buys the house for top dollar. Other times there's a perfect match but in general going FSBO only is seriously impairing your chances to get top dollar. I've seen dozens lose their home and hundreds of others get far too low a price because they were too stubborn to market their house to the fullest.

Buyer and sellers then privately chat on Patrick.net to see if they are interested in talking more about an FSBO sale

One big reason buyers and sellers hire Realtors is because they don't want to chat directly. Now if you could act as a mediator without actually practicing real estate you might have something there.

Call it Crazy says

What did they email over? Current crap I already viewed weeks before on the MLS....
Yep, Useless....

You're throwing away the baby with the bathwater...

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

It is clear. It is time to outlaw the NAR, indict all of their members and disband the MLS.

Too many Americans are pussies or downright ignorant. They'll never eat the rich. Get use to same old same old for a long long time.

Just an observation, but with all the agents I have delt with over the past 30 years, only 2 males were worth something. One was the one who farmed the area so that his signs were everywhere, clearly he was who you listed with. The other was one I ran into in Sacramento. Otherwise all the male agents were BS artists while the females listened and remembered what you were into.

ELC says

I have no idea why it would take you a week to get listings. I've taught the MLS to Realtors for the past ten years. I know it like the back of my hand. It was never delayed. Listings show on the MLS within seconds of becoming active.

Most of the houses show up in Craigslist, or FSBO on Zillow and the like before they end up the MLS. Also many houses that were shadow inventory and not really listed anywhere. but what ever the reason, I concluded that South Florida Realtors were useless and are a hindrance to housing recovery. As their idea of housing recovery means higher prices. And if you were expecting to buy a house for a good deal, then you were counterproductive to their agenda.

CaptainShuddup says

Most of the houses show up in Craigslist, or FSBO on Zillow and the like before they end up the MLS. Also many houses that were shadow inventory and not really listed anywhere. but what ever the reason, I concluded that South Florida Realtors were useless and are a hindrance to housing recovery. As their idea of housing recovery means higher prices. And if you were expecting to buy a house for a good deal, then you were counterproductive to their agenda.

Southeast Florida (SEF) is the system I use and I assure it's impossible to hold back a listing once the search is saved and associated with a client. It's my job to know all the tricks. If you're getting them late then the only possible way would be that the Realtor is fowarding them to you later on. But that would be much more labor intensive.

BTW, I think that by demonizing all Realtors you're shooting yourself in the foot. While most Realtors are undereducated and often unprofessional most don't have an, "agenda," as you describe it. I guarantee that your attitude is a huge contributing factor. Sort of a self-fullfilling prophesy. When I was a Realtor I learned to stay away from someone who is going to be a problem. I could smell it a mile away. Only the idiots will give you the time of day because they don't know how to say no to bad business. You just don't have the same tools and connections that a good Realtor does and if you can't face those facts you'll be impaired until you decide to eat a little crow.

ELC says

It's my job to know all the tricks.

OH! I see the problem.
See YOU don't have a problem with "TRICKS" even being a part of the house buying process. Where as the rest of us, that is the SINGLE most reason that the Buyers agent MUST be a relic of the past, if/when/before we can recover.

ELC says

You just don't have the same tools and connections that a good Realtor does and if you can't face those facts you'll be impaired until you decide to eat a little crow.

You're missing my point all together.
After I figured out that realtors were wasting my time for 3 years straight while I was home shopping. I found a house and had a contract on it with in a week.

So I don't give a crap what the realtors thought of me, the feelings were mutual.

I can gurantee you, they knew I was a problem by my scathing email replies to lists they would send me that were way off what my criteria was. I was expecting a house for $120K-$175K, in a time Realtors were still hanging on to the notion that a 1200 sqft house in North Central Hollywood was still fetching $250K to $300K. Even though I saw plenty of sales data on Zillow and Trulia suggesting what those houses were selling for.

Lucky for me, and not so lucky for your "TRICKS", these web sites made the MLS system con job too transparent.

Those $120K-$175K were out there in abundance, but the realtors didn't want to waste one minute on them.

1)it was conflicting with the commission they expected on comparables.
2)those houses were for them and their investor straw men groups.

SO stop being so disingenuous, you're not our friend, you're not here to help, you're here to make the best business decision for your self, at the expense of would be buyers.

in 2009 and 2010 every realtor I spoke to, told me RE was going up, and would never go down the price I bought at in November 2010.

The only way I see this working out is to set yourself up with the MLS and do both. Owner lists with MLS, and if they find a seller through your FSBO side, they get a 6% credit or whatever. That way they get maximum exposure with MLS, and there is a small chance they might get 6% more.

That way you're leveraging the power of the MLS to try and push the FSBO side. Much like you were doing with craigslist. Using their massive rental listings to collect up data, and then trying to sell people services based off all that data.

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pkennedy says

The only way I see this working out is to set yourself up with the MLS and do both. Owner lists with MLS, and if they find a seller through your FSBO side, they get a 6% credit or whatever. That way they get maximum exposure with MLS, and there is a small chance they might get 6% more.
That way you're leveraging the power of the MLS to try and push the FSBO side. Much like you were doing with craigslist. Using their massive rental listings to collect up data, and then trying to sell people services based off all that data.

Buyowner's been doing it that way for decades. They don't say it on their webpage but (back when I worked there) you could list in the MLS and if it sells through the MLS they deduct the FSBO advertisement fee from the commission. It was a no-brainer doing it that way. The only people who wouldn't list in the MLS were those who didn't want to deal with Realtors AT ALL. Trouble was Realtors used the website to call their customers to try to get listings. So there was no escaping them! It was such an easy sale. I would close 92% of my appointments. Like I said before 80% would sell through the MLS anyway even when the property was listed 6% higher.

After a very bad experience with Realtors I started working for them because I was attracted by their hatred for Realtors, but in practice practically every saleperson got licensed so they could list the customer on the MLS as well as get them FSBO exposure. They even paid for the classes and licensing fee. And honestly, not putting them on the MLS would be doing a disservice to the seller. So as much as I hated Realtors and wanted to see them put out of business back then, I still got my license. http://www.buyowner.com/sell-my-home

BTW there's new owners now so I'm not sure if they use the MLS like they used to. They were under constant fire from NAR for doing it that way. Not sure if the new owner has the guts. :)

I didn't say it was going to work the way Patrick was hoping. He's going to end up with a site like buyowners or whatever other ones are out there. But there is a 0% chance of succeeding without at least a rudimentary connection into the MLS.

Hirer a good realtor, and they'll make you lots of extra money, or save you lots of money. Much like hiring a lawyer, or trying to bargain at a store. If you hirer someone good, you'll get good results. If you don't know how to bargain, you're going to do terribly. For some a realtor does nothing more than show a place, to others, they ensure it gets top dollar or that their client gets the house for the lowest cost. A home owner who goes at it alone is most likely a fool.

pkennedy says

A home owner who goes at it alone is most likely a fool.

Yes, I sure did meet some fools. But they were beaten into submission by the time I got there so most had an open mind. I had my sales book full of photos of customers pulling up their tattered old Home Depot signs. By the time I left they were so happy and relieved that at least now they were doing all they could do.

Call it Crazy says

I think that's the point he was trying to make to you. The realtors weren't forwarding on new listings that fit his criteria for days/weeks. He would go on the MLS and spot them first and then days later, get it from the realtors...
Apparently, they didn't know your "tricks"....
...or were just plain lazy, part-time soccer moms looking to make a few bucks on the side in their spare time as a "professional" realtor.....

The lazy "soccer mom" way would be to just, "set it and forget it." THAT'S how it's done. If they do it that way the client gets emails immediately. Granted they won't be very targeted but they won't be old. It would be way too much hassel to wait a couple weeks before sending listing to every single client. It's just not the way Realtors do it whether they be honest or dishonest. Unless he's some special kind of freak that made this Realtor want to waste their time to screw with his head, or the Realtor was completely retarded. If the Realtor is taking the time to screen the listings and hand picks them for them then they may be sent manually and come late, but they will be fairly targeted. What Captain Shuddup is saying just doesn't add up. He's saying the listings were late AND not targeted. I have too much direct experience to believe this would have happened to him on a recurring basis with multiple Realtors. Those looking for conspiracy and dishonesty is what they're going to find. Anyone in business who deals with the public knows the type.

CaptainShuddup says

SO stop being so disingenuous, you're not our friend

I'm not here selling anything. In your paradigm no one is going to be your friend. Sorry I wasted my time answering you. That's what you are going to be to everyone who tries to help you. A waste of time and a hater.

CaptainShuddup says

1)it was conflicting with the commission they expected on comparables.
2)those houses were for them and their investor straw men groups.

Yep, it's all one big conspiracy designed just to get you to buy a house 100k more than what you wanted.

CaptainShuddup says

See YOU don't have a problem with "TRICKS" even being a part of the house buying process.

When I say tricks I mean advanced ways to use the MLS. Not how to trick people. You're a real piece of work. Of course with that attitude no one of quality is going to work with you. It's no surprise to me that you are finding the worst the world has to offer.

CaptainShuddup says

And if you were expecting to buy a house for a good deal, then you were counterproductive to their agenda.

There's lots of Realtors who love working with investors. But they're usually very astute and busy and won't put up with any nonsense.