patrick.net

Call it Crazy says

First, I think you're giving the soccer mom turned professional realtor way too much credit. I doubt 5% of them can come close to you regarding navigating the MLS software program to it's advantage and to set up the target list and direct emails.

Unfortunately, this is most likely the case for many people. Surfing the web is one thing, but even simple configurations for emailing specific homes to people could be pretty difficult if you had absolutely no knowledge.

I only started getting emails from e-mans setup after like 10 months :) and I was a test case I think. So even good ones don't bother with it!

Call it Crazy says

Most can bearly turn a computer on, much less just hack their way through without understanding the program.

It's not just the soccer mom's. Many of the mega producers can't either. When they lose their assistant they're lost until they can find someone trainable.

Call it Crazy says

So what happens is they go into their office once or twice a week and look at their current leads/contact list, do a quick search and email off some new listings.

I can easily see that senario. When it comes to stories of incompetance I'll believe anything. I occationally come across Reators who are still on dial-up access! It was that Captain shuddup thinks they're doing it to keep the listings from him.

ELC says

You're a real piece of work.

Soooo, you're saying I'm so mean, Realtors hate me?
It's OK Ya'll, it's not the Realtors, it's our attitude. Show 'em some love, and they'll sell you one of those $40,000 houses, that needs a $15,000 kitchen, then it can be flipped for $225K. They'll even convince the bank, what a mathematically sound investment it is.

everything says

They may be doing this already, but bringing them all together into one searchable directory (big job), would create a whole new ballgame.

I've seen a website that does this already. Perhaps it doesn't have them all, but it had several other sites for sale by owner type websites listed on one site. The work involved isn't all that extensive. Once you enter the criteria your searching on the website, the server then types the same criteria into all of the other websites search field, then the results are merged together into one sorted list on the master website for the user to see.

Yes, I've seen that site too and one key is that it has only a few searchable fields like area, br, and price, and then always links back to the original listing site for the details and the contact info.

The original sites are very afraid of being displaced, so I can see that they would not agree to anyone indexing their listings unless they are guaranteed to get traffic out of it.

It's the same reason Google has to link back to original pages instead of always just showing you a cached copy.

CaptainShuddup says

it's our attitude

Real Estate is not rocket science. It's a simple straight forward transaction between two people. How it happens is up to you, you are the individual.

Real Estate agents, in theory, are in the market place every day looking for inventory. Some stay on the phone all day, every day, and call random people, or expired listings, or a list of people who have owned for more than ten years.

You won't see them, but you will see the for sale signs with their name on it. They don'y mind having a set of buyers to work with.

Other agents work open houses, send mailings, or knock on doors.

That is how the Multiple gets it's listings. It gets listings from Real Estate agents.

David Losh says

That is how the Multiple gets it's listings. It gets listings from Real Estate agents.

But once publicly advertised, the advertisement of a specific address at a specific asking price is a fact. And facts cannot be copyrighted.

So now the question is why all of those facts have not yet been aggregated on any one website. The answer so far is that the "Terms of Use" of most MLS sites prohibit using their site for that purpose. So Terms of Use is used to violate freedom of speech by those who would like to aggregate all listings. It should not be that way, but it is.

To get around it, if zillions of people all had an interest in entering every advertised address and price into a database on, say, Patrick.net, then there is nothing anyone could do to stop that.

It works for gasbuddy.com, where zillions of people enter all the gas prices and locations across the country. But the subtle social dyamics of real estate are different. People using gasbuddy.com get some pscyhological beneft from publishing those prices to reward cheap gas stations and punish expensive gas stations. That works because they buy gas over and over and want to keep prices down.

I have not been able to make it work for real estate because houses are rare non-commodity purchases, unlike gas. If a buyer is interested in a house, he's not going to draw attention to it by entering it on Patrick.net. If a buyer is not interested in a house, he is also probably not going to bother entering it on Patrick.net. So either way, buyers don't enter real estate data.

But once publicly advertised, the advertisement of a specific address at a specific asking price is a fact. And facts cannot be copyrighted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_v._Rural

9-0 says your right!

If a buyer is interested in a house, he's not going to draw attention to it by entering it on Patrick.net.

but sellers are, so that's what you have to work with I guess.

Zillow has the "make me move" feature which is a start I guess.

TBH tho I don't see why RedFin isn't unbeatable right now. It's the only site I go to (ten years ago I haunted mlslistings.com but it sucked then and it still sucks now).

Bellingham Bill says

but sellers are, so that's what you have to work with I guess.

Actually, sellers do not seem interested in maximum exposure for their listings!

There are a number of reasons sellers will not list on, say, Patrick.net:

* They want the ability to erase all history of a listing and re-list at a lower price while claiming that they did not reduce the price.

* Agents charged with disseminating listings may not really want the property to sell. In fact, they may want it to fail to sell so that they can get it themselves, or so that they can keep renting it out illegally.

* Sellers do not like this very forum, which is largely uncensored and where users might point out things about the property that the seller is trying to hide.

CaptainShuddup says

He'd inform me that I have to call a buyers agent.

You have a lot to say there that is true, but let me address the point about a buyer's agent.

Only one listing agent here in Seattle has an in house buyer's agent, or refers people to buyer's agents. He's a great agent, and his buyer's agent has been with him for over twenty years, maybe even thirty.

The listing agent doesn't want to be in a position of being a dual agent. In theory the listing agent represents the seller, and buyer's agent represents the buyer.

We are into a long debate, but here in Seattle in the 1980s we had a guy named Jim Stacy who was solely, a buyer's agent. He wrote books, and gave seminars. Great guy, who had lots of business before he retired. He actually sold his business to a gentleman who was a great business person, just not a very good agent.

As far as not accepting FHA. I had a VA buyer this year who couldn't get a deal to save his life. No one wanted a VA deal. He just bought in November, when the market had cooled. He got a nice house, everything he wanted, and at a good price.

When we startted there was nothing but junk that he would get all excited about, and I would have to calm him down. Last Spring was ridiculous.

As far as bank owned, that sit vacant, that's a fact of the business, and you have to deal with the people who deal with bank owned property. You can get a regular agent, but they are constantly lost, and confused by the Real Estate Owned market.

I'm still saying that you need to pick an agent who you can work with, and give them everything you've got, which includes loan approval.

So Terms of Use is used to violate freedom of speech

Terms of Use means what it says. Once the information is sent out to, or listed on a Zillow, Trulia, Craigslist, or redfin, it's fair game. I forgot Realtor.com.

The problem is no wants to then correlate it, store it, or turn into a website, because there is no money in it.

I had a loan approval my Credit score at the time was 720, it's in the 790's now, or the last time I looked.

I've already bought and the whole affair is now behind me. I use my story to justify to others how sometimes, it is just better to buy when the opportunity arises for a house you can live with the terms. With out trying to time the market bottom. My sanity is certainly worth more than that extra 20-30K difference I could have squeezed out eventually.
I ended up buying for 160K 2100 sqft, 10K lot, just minutes from the maul.

Back to the buyers agent. At least it sounds like your operation at least has a complete solution, I call the listing agent, he then patches me to his buyers agent. I would have loved that. In SoFla we're told to fend for our selves.
Many buyers agents I would call, were only interested in working on their list. They weren't interested in doing work on some house I found.
Then another theme I kept being told...

"if realtors know you WERE working with another realtor, they wont want to do business with you." I guess they don't like accountability and if I, the would be home buyer, picks a realtor that I think isn't working out. I am supposed to just tough it out with him, and be more receptive to the houses he's trying to pawn on me. Because the bank approved a loan up to 360K based on my salary, and all I want is a house worth only 150-175K.

You realtors seem to eager to defend the bad practices of the other, or not willing to respect the wishes of the buyer, in what they expect in or from an agent.

We buyers are looking for partner, not an educator. In this market, how in the hell can you possibly be the market and NOT get a School of hard knocks education? The realtor is just going over the shampoo instructions on the bottle at this point.

David Losh says

So Terms of Use is used to violate freedom of speech

Terms of Use means what it says. Once the information is sent out to, or listed on a Zillow, Trulia, Craigslist, or redfin, it's fair game. I forgot Realtor.com.

The problem is no wants to then correlate it, store it, or turn into a website, because there is no money in it.

I would definitely like to correlate it, store it, and turn that into a website, money or not.

But I can't legally get the data from any of those sources. They just don't share.

So I'm left with user data entry, which I have not figure out how to make work yet.

They just don't share.

Do you mean they don't want to feed so you have to input all the data by hand?

David Losh says

They just don't share.

Do you mean they don't want to feed so you have to input all the data by hand?

Yes, that's what I mean. They won't give me a nice feed of all their listings to republish, even if I agree to link back to them.

CaptainShuddup says

buyers are looking for partner

For a good Real Estate agent it is all business. The touchy feely crap is best for the huggers, and schmoozers.

There are a lot of agents in Florida who have been really busy working like dogs to make ends meet. So, yes there was probably a lot of rude responses.

My point is that really good Real Estate agents are really busy. It is very hard for an "outsider" to find a good agent. I've discussed that topic in other forums.

You do have to interview, and be willing to be interviewed by agents. It's a give, and take.

I personally would go to open houses of agents who have a lot of listings. Some of these people can be fast talkers, or you may talk with an assistant, but they would be a good resource. They may refer you to a buyer's agent they know, and work with.

David Losh says

For a good Real Estate agent it is all business. The touchy feely crap is best for the huggers, and schmoozers.

We could have just agreed early on then.

Ooh all of my post were disliked.

...and here I thought I was finally getting through to you.

it wasn't me.

CaptainShuddup says

Soooo, you're saying I'm so mean, Realtors hate me?

I'm saying you tend to get what you expect. It's no different with men who hate women or women who hate men. They always seem to find the bad ones. Battered women get battered in practically every relationship. Is it just bad luck? Is it that all men are wife beaters? No, it's bad choices. Sick women picking sick men. Is it really that all Realtors are crooks? Or, is it maybe possible that you're unwilling to take some personal responsibilty for your failure to do what it takes to learn how to screen an agent? How to treat people with respect so you get it in return? Birds of a feather flock together, and so on and so on and scooby dooby do....

ELC says

your failure to do what it takes to learn how to screen an agent

OK, you've kind of crossed a line with this comment, but let's stick with the fact that the Real Estate community is very closed, and cloistered.

No agent is going to come out, and be a buddy. Real Estate agents get a lot of rejection, if they aren't being rejected, they aren't talking to enough people. That leaves agents guarded, even though they may be bubbly, and effusive.

I've had this conversation a lot over the years on different forums. I know agents, and agents know me so I can kind of know who is good, and who isn't working. The public has it much, much harder.

David Losh says

I personally would go to open houses of agents who have a lot of listings. Some of these people can be fast talkers, or you may talk with an assistant, but they would be a good resource. They may refer you to a buyer's agent they know, and work with.

I would look for an agent who has a lot of listings and try to get them to take you on. I've found Realtors who handle a lot of buyers are for lack of a better term, losers. Losers are found at open houses too. The value of an open house is to scrounge up buyers for other houses. It rarely helps sell the open house. It's dishonest and inefficient. An agent's time is ALWAYS best spent getting new listings. Period. Not sitting in open houses or chauffeuring around "maybe" buyers. But that takes skill and ambition. Contrary to what most Realtors seem to believe, realty is selling, and selling is about getting someone to sign on the dotted line. If an agent isn't asking you to sign a contract they're a begger relying on the kindness of strangers. Expending time and gas without a written agreement is no way to do business. The only buyers I got involved with was if I had listed their house and was finding them a new home or was doing it as a favor. And boy did I regret those favors. Don't get me wrong. Thank heaven for the people who like to bring buyers or feel they have no choice. Thank heaven for people who work at McDonalds and who dig ditches too. Where would the world be without them. Just don't hire someone with a ditch diggers mentality to find you a home, "your single greatest "investment."

David Losh says

let's stick with the fact that the Real Estate community is very closed, and cloistered.
No agent is going to come out, and be a buddy. Real Estate agents get a lot of rejection, if they aren't being rejected, they aren't talking to enough people. That leaves agents guarded, even though they may be bubbly, and effusive.

Like I said in the previous post. It's really pretty simple. Prolific listing agents are going to be the ones you want to deal with. The ones who don't list are either part time, the soccer mom, the newby, the lazy, the ignorant. Go to personal or company websites and take a look at their listings. Look for someone who lists properties similar to the one you're interested in. Also try to speak to the broker because that's who you might have to go to if you're having trouble with the agent. Also stupidity often trickles down. If you like the broker ask them who they recommend for your situation but insist that they be a top LISTING producer. It also helps to deal with a RE/MAX agent. Once someone becomes a top producer they often wind up at RE/MAX because the commissions are highest and the hand holding is the lowest. You're basically renting office space. Franchises like Century 21 harbour idiots and newbies who thinks people hire them because of the brand. It's important they answer their phone too or at least return their voicemails at least twice a day. The rest is just getting a good gut feeling that you can work with this person. Don't follow the advice of websites that give you a list of stupid questions to ask like, "do you have any references." "How many homes will I see before I'm expected to buy." etc.

But the main point is that agents with lots of listings aren't part-time, they aren't starving, and they aren't inexperienced.

CaptainShuddup says

when I would call the number on the yard signs of houses I was interested in.

Knock on the door. Don't be ascared. Serious sellers usually won't bury you in their back yard or say something to you that will make you cry.

No but they will tell you to call the name on the sign.
But in all reality, at the time. These were vacant homes with RE signs in the front, where the owners weren't living in them, for what ever reason, but I'm sure not covering the mortgage had something to do with it.

Let's not kid our selves here, 2007 -2010, no one in their right mind were selling a house for normal classic motivators. If it was for sale, that usually meant, the last guy couldn't afford it.

CaptainShuddup says

2007 -2010, no one in their right mind were selling a house for normal classic motivators.

Classic motivators have always been "the three d's." Divorce, Death, and Debt.

CaptainShuddup says

These were vacant homes with RE signs in the front, where the owners weren't living in them

There was a long period of time when banks weren't approving short sales, or were back logged with offers they had accepted on bank owned properties.

Yes, that's what I mean. They won't give me a nice feed of all their listings to republish, even if I agree to link back to them.

I can't believe your can't write a program to take the data and reformat it for your own site.

For example, Owners.com, have the computer search for homes by zip code, Have the program click on the first price listed (field is called "span.price"). copy the address information into address field for your program (h1 description of property, h2 is the street address, h3 is the city, state, zip code), search for the word Beds

I posted some html code from the owners.com website, but your site keeps editing it out.

add number to bed field, search for Bath, add number to baths field, and so on. It will probably have to be custom written for each website it searches, but it should be possible to swipe all of this information from other websites to create your own records to add to your own database. Duplicates would have to be eliminated, and some manual checking would be involved. A web page is just a list of code after all. You would have to run your data stealer program at least once a week to keep the information updated as new listings appear.

The Professor says

I usually "Like" Apacalypse's posts and then read them. I am occasionally appalled by his profanity but he usually has something wise to say.

Ditto.

TechGromit says

I can't believe your can't write a program to take the data and reformat it for your own site.

For example, Owners.com, have the computer search for homes by zip code, Have the program click on the first price listed (field is called "span.price"). copy the address information into address field for your program ...

Yes, I can pretty easily do that but I would definitely get sued for doing it!

For example:
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/when-craigslist-blocks-innovations-disruptions/

The problem is legal, not technical. Pretty much all the "Terms of Use" of real estate sites explicitly forbid copying data from them.

What can I do about that?

The problem is legal,

Yes, the problem is legal, but I had an idea a few years ago that I thought would work.

You already have the Open House forum, but do you recommend any homes to buy?

As an agent I can't say what is or isn't a good deal, but you could.

I choose to stick with the positive, and say what's good, it's easier than listing a bunch of negativity.

I go to Broker's Opens, and Sunday Opens. If there is a sign outside inviting you in, it's Open.

As long as you are making positive comments most agents don't mind.

So I pick what I think is a good deal, a property worth buying, and why. You already have the forum.

OK, but what is the business model then? Subscriptions to data about good deals?

TechGromit says

I can't believe your can't write a program to take the data and reformat it for your own site.

For example, Owners.com, have the computer search for homes by zip code, Have the program click on the first price listed (field is called "span.price"). copy the address information into address field for your program ...

Yes, I can pretty easily do that but I would definitely get sued for doing it!

For example:

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/when-craigslist-blocks-innovations-disruptions/

The problem is legal, not technical. Pretty much all the "Terms of Use" of real estate sites explicitly forbid copying data from them.

What can I do about that?

There is a solution but it requires careful sleuthing, networking and planning. You put up the service as planned but the servers reside in another country that has hardly any copyright laws (don't use New Zealand), there are plenty of those. You also need a trusted partner in that country and an official business overseas I am sure the real estate gangstas would try and go after you but there is a point of diminishing returns for more and more effort and eventually they may give up. Since the data is not really private, mostly text and a couple of pictures or vids you could even go the distributed route where the content is spread out over various peers similar to bit torrent. After all, Chinese investors are apparently giddy to gobble up all that real estate here, so why not bring the data to them ;) But I am sure you are envisioning a more peaceful and practical life going forward..

sounds like capitalism should step in and create some jobs!

there is a solution to mls

create your own

i can do it.

'
sounds like they got lazy, corrupted or worse.

I CAN DO BETTER!

The information exists.

The Professor says

I usually "Like" Apacalypse's posts and then read them. I am occasionally appalled by his profanity but he usually has something wise to say.

Ditto.

Local color

what is the business model

By being a trusted resource you have more opportunity.

The way your site presents now it is just a bashing site for the Real Estate industry.

Internet speed is something I have never seen on any real estate listing. In this day and age, where video and voice have become essential and huge bandwidth hogs, how can they NOT list internet speed.

The lack of speed killed an offer I was about to make on a Santa Cruz mountain property. The realtor didn't know any of the providers or what the speed (up/down) was in the area based on provider. I spent hours of my own time and got Comcast to investigate. Turns out the area is owned by some random company and Comcast cannot do business there unless this company sells. Strange, but I should not have had to waste two days of my time going to the property. This information should be listed along with all the other utilities.

David Losh says

The way your site presents now it is just a bashing site for the Real Estate industry.

I agree. Constructive criticism is one thing but too many people here have major failure issues and are blaming it on the Realtors. It takes very little effort and money to have what they have (true MLS access). You're going to join 'em long before you beat 'em. To think otherwise is just a pipe dream.