patrick.net

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

It is clear. It is time to outlaw the NAR, indict all of their members and disband the MLS.

Too many Americans are pussies or downright ignorant. They'll never eat the rich. Get use to same old same old for a long long time.

Just an observation, but with all the agents I have delt with over the past 30 years, only 2 males were worth something. One was the one who farmed the area so that his signs were everywhere, clearly he was who you listed with. The other was one I ran into in Sacramento. Otherwise all the male agents were BS artists while the females listened and remembered what you were into.

ELC says

I have no idea why it would take you a week to get listings. I've taught the MLS to Realtors for the past ten years. I know it like the back of my hand. It was never delayed. Listings show on the MLS within seconds of becoming active.

Most of the houses show up in Craigslist, or FSBO on Zillow and the like before they end up the MLS. Also many houses that were shadow inventory and not really listed anywhere. but what ever the reason, I concluded that South Florida Realtors were useless and are a hindrance to housing recovery. As their idea of housing recovery means higher prices. And if you were expecting to buy a house for a good deal, then you were counterproductive to their agenda.

CaptainShuddup says

Most of the houses show up in Craigslist, or FSBO on Zillow and the like before they end up the MLS. Also many houses that were shadow inventory and not really listed anywhere. but what ever the reason, I concluded that South Florida Realtors were useless and are a hindrance to housing recovery. As their idea of housing recovery means higher prices. And if you were expecting to buy a house for a good deal, then you were counterproductive to their agenda.

Southeast Florida (SEF) is the system I use and I assure it's impossible to hold back a listing once the search is saved and associated with a client. It's my job to know all the tricks. If you're getting them late then the only possible way would be that the Realtor is fowarding them to you later on. But that would be much more labor intensive.

BTW, I think that by demonizing all Realtors you're shooting yourself in the foot. While most Realtors are undereducated and often unprofessional most don't have an, "agenda," as you describe it. I guarantee that your attitude is a huge contributing factor. Sort of a self-fullfilling prophesy. When I was a Realtor I learned to stay away from someone who is going to be a problem. I could smell it a mile away. Only the idiots will give you the time of day because they don't know how to say no to bad business. You just don't have the same tools and connections that a good Realtor does and if you can't face those facts you'll be impaired until you decide to eat a little crow.

ELC says

It's my job to know all the tricks.

OH! I see the problem.
See YOU don't have a problem with "TRICKS" even being a part of the house buying process. Where as the rest of us, that is the SINGLE most reason that the Buyers agent MUST be a relic of the past, if/when/before we can recover.

ELC says

You just don't have the same tools and connections that a good Realtor does and if you can't face those facts you'll be impaired until you decide to eat a little crow.

You're missing my point all together.
After I figured out that realtors were wasting my time for 3 years straight while I was home shopping. I found a house and had a contract on it with in a week.

So I don't give a crap what the realtors thought of me, the feelings were mutual.

I can gurantee you, they knew I was a problem by my scathing email replies to lists they would send me that were way off what my criteria was. I was expecting a house for $120K-$175K, in a time Realtors were still hanging on to the notion that a 1200 sqft house in North Central Hollywood was still fetching $250K to $300K. Even though I saw plenty of sales data on Zillow and Trulia suggesting what those houses were selling for.

Lucky for me, and not so lucky for your "TRICKS", these web sites made the MLS system con job too transparent.

Those $120K-$175K were out there in abundance, but the realtors didn't want to waste one minute on them.

1)it was conflicting with the commission they expected on comparables.
2)those houses were for them and their investor straw men groups.

SO stop being so disingenuous, you're not our friend, you're not here to help, you're here to make the best business decision for your self, at the expense of would be buyers.

in 2009 and 2010 every realtor I spoke to, told me RE was going up, and would never go down the price I bought at in November 2010.

The only way I see this working out is to set yourself up with the MLS and do both. Owner lists with MLS, and if they find a seller through your FSBO side, they get a 6% credit or whatever. That way they get maximum exposure with MLS, and there is a small chance they might get 6% more.

That way you're leveraging the power of the MLS to try and push the FSBO side. Much like you were doing with craigslist. Using their massive rental listings to collect up data, and then trying to sell people services based off all that data.

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pkennedy says

The only way I see this working out is to set yourself up with the MLS and do both. Owner lists with MLS, and if they find a seller through your FSBO side, they get a 6% credit or whatever. That way they get maximum exposure with MLS, and there is a small chance they might get 6% more.
That way you're leveraging the power of the MLS to try and push the FSBO side. Much like you were doing with craigslist. Using their massive rental listings to collect up data, and then trying to sell people services based off all that data.

Buyowner's been doing it that way for decades. They don't say it on their webpage but (back when I worked there) you could list in the MLS and if it sells through the MLS they deduct the FSBO advertisement fee from the commission. It was a no-brainer doing it that way. The only people who wouldn't list in the MLS were those who didn't want to deal with Realtors AT ALL. Trouble was Realtors used the website to call their customers to try to get listings. So there was no escaping them! It was such an easy sale. I would close 92% of my appointments. Like I said before 80% would sell through the MLS anyway even when the property was listed 6% higher.

After a very bad experience with Realtors I started working for them because I was attracted by their hatred for Realtors, but in practice practically every saleperson got licensed so they could list the customer on the MLS as well as get them FSBO exposure. They even paid for the classes and licensing fee. And honestly, not putting them on the MLS would be doing a disservice to the seller. So as much as I hated Realtors and wanted to see them put out of business back then, I still got my license. http://www.buyowner.com/sell-my-home

BTW there's new owners now so I'm not sure if they use the MLS like they used to. They were under constant fire from NAR for doing it that way. Not sure if the new owner has the guts. :)

I didn't say it was going to work the way Patrick was hoping. He's going to end up with a site like buyowners or whatever other ones are out there. But there is a 0% chance of succeeding without at least a rudimentary connection into the MLS.

Hirer a good realtor, and they'll make you lots of extra money, or save you lots of money. Much like hiring a lawyer, or trying to bargain at a store. If you hirer someone good, you'll get good results. If you don't know how to bargain, you're going to do terribly. For some a realtor does nothing more than show a place, to others, they ensure it gets top dollar or that their client gets the house for the lowest cost. A home owner who goes at it alone is most likely a fool.

pkennedy says

A home owner who goes at it alone is most likely a fool.

Yes, I sure did meet some fools. But they were beaten into submission by the time I got there so most had an open mind. I had my sales book full of photos of customers pulling up their tattered old Home Depot signs. By the time I left they were so happy and relieved that at least now they were doing all they could do.

Call it Crazy says

I think that's the point he was trying to make to you. The realtors weren't forwarding on new listings that fit his criteria for days/weeks. He would go on the MLS and spot them first and then days later, get it from the realtors...
Apparently, they didn't know your "tricks"....
...or were just plain lazy, part-time soccer moms looking to make a few bucks on the side in their spare time as a "professional" realtor.....

The lazy "soccer mom" way would be to just, "set it and forget it." THAT'S how it's done. If they do it that way the client gets emails immediately. Granted they won't be very targeted but they won't be old. It would be way too much hassel to wait a couple weeks before sending listing to every single client. It's just not the way Realtors do it whether they be honest or dishonest. Unless he's some special kind of freak that made this Realtor want to waste their time to screw with his head, or the Realtor was completely retarded. If the Realtor is taking the time to screen the listings and hand picks them for them then they may be sent manually and come late, but they will be fairly targeted. What Captain Shuddup is saying just doesn't add up. He's saying the listings were late AND not targeted. I have too much direct experience to believe this would have happened to him on a recurring basis with multiple Realtors. Those looking for conspiracy and dishonesty is what they're going to find. Anyone in business who deals with the public knows the type.

CaptainShuddup says

SO stop being so disingenuous, you're not our friend

I'm not here selling anything. In your paradigm no one is going to be your friend. Sorry I wasted my time answering you. That's what you are going to be to everyone who tries to help you. A waste of time and a hater.

CaptainShuddup says

1)it was conflicting with the commission they expected on comparables.
2)those houses were for them and their investor straw men groups.

Yep, it's all one big conspiracy designed just to get you to buy a house 100k more than what you wanted.

CaptainShuddup says

See YOU don't have a problem with "TRICKS" even being a part of the house buying process.

When I say tricks I mean advanced ways to use the MLS. Not how to trick people. You're a real piece of work. Of course with that attitude no one of quality is going to work with you. It's no surprise to me that you are finding the worst the world has to offer.

CaptainShuddup says

And if you were expecting to buy a house for a good deal, then you were counterproductive to their agenda.

There's lots of Realtors who love working with investors. But they're usually very astute and busy and won't put up with any nonsense.

Call it Crazy says

First, I think you're giving the soccer mom turned professional realtor way too much credit. I doubt 5% of them can come close to you regarding navigating the MLS software program to it's advantage and to set up the target list and direct emails.

Unfortunately, this is most likely the case for many people. Surfing the web is one thing, but even simple configurations for emailing specific homes to people could be pretty difficult if you had absolutely no knowledge.

I only started getting emails from e-mans setup after like 10 months :) and I was a test case I think. So even good ones don't bother with it!

Call it Crazy says

Most can bearly turn a computer on, much less just hack their way through without understanding the program.

It's not just the soccer mom's. Many of the mega producers can't either. When they lose their assistant they're lost until they can find someone trainable.

Call it Crazy says

So what happens is they go into their office once or twice a week and look at their current leads/contact list, do a quick search and email off some new listings.

I can easily see that senario. When it comes to stories of incompetance I'll believe anything. I occationally come across Reators who are still on dial-up access! It was that Captain shuddup thinks they're doing it to keep the listings from him.

ELC says

You're a real piece of work.

Soooo, you're saying I'm so mean, Realtors hate me?
It's OK Ya'll, it's not the Realtors, it's our attitude. Show 'em some love, and they'll sell you one of those $40,000 houses, that needs a $15,000 kitchen, then it can be flipped for $225K. They'll even convince the bank, what a mathematically sound investment it is.

everything says

They may be doing this already, but bringing them all together into one searchable directory (big job), would create a whole new ballgame.

I've seen a website that does this already. Perhaps it doesn't have them all, but it had several other sites for sale by owner type websites listed on one site. The work involved isn't all that extensive. Once you enter the criteria your searching on the website, the server then types the same criteria into all of the other websites search field, then the results are merged together into one sorted list on the master website for the user to see.

Yes, I've seen that site too and one key is that it has only a few searchable fields like area, br, and price, and then always links back to the original listing site for the details and the contact info.

The original sites are very afraid of being displaced, so I can see that they would not agree to anyone indexing their listings unless they are guaranteed to get traffic out of it.

It's the same reason Google has to link back to original pages instead of always just showing you a cached copy.

CaptainShuddup says

it's our attitude

Real Estate is not rocket science. It's a simple straight forward transaction between two people. How it happens is up to you, you are the individual.

Real Estate agents, in theory, are in the market place every day looking for inventory. Some stay on the phone all day, every day, and call random people, or expired listings, or a list of people who have owned for more than ten years.

You won't see them, but you will see the for sale signs with their name on it. They don'y mind having a set of buyers to work with.

Other agents work open houses, send mailings, or knock on doors.

That is how the Multiple gets it's listings. It gets listings from Real Estate agents.

David Losh says

That is how the Multiple gets it's listings. It gets listings from Real Estate agents.

But once publicly advertised, the advertisement of a specific address at a specific asking price is a fact. And facts cannot be copyrighted.

So now the question is why all of those facts have not yet been aggregated on any one website. The answer so far is that the "Terms of Use" of most MLS sites prohibit using their site for that purpose. So Terms of Use is used to violate freedom of speech by those who would like to aggregate all listings. It should not be that way, but it is.

To get around it, if zillions of people all had an interest in entering every advertised address and price into a database on, say, Patrick.net, then there is nothing anyone could do to stop that.

It works for gasbuddy.com, where zillions of people enter all the gas prices and locations across the country. But the subtle social dyamics of real estate are different. People using gasbuddy.com get some pscyhological beneft from publishing those prices to reward cheap gas stations and punish expensive gas stations. That works because they buy gas over and over and want to keep prices down.

I have not been able to make it work for real estate because houses are rare non-commodity purchases, unlike gas. If a buyer is interested in a house, he's not going to draw attention to it by entering it on Patrick.net. If a buyer is not interested in a house, he is also probably not going to bother entering it on Patrick.net. So either way, buyers don't enter real estate data.

But once publicly advertised, the advertisement of a specific address at a specific asking price is a fact. And facts cannot be copyrighted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_v._Rural

9-0 says your right!

If a buyer is interested in a house, he's not going to draw attention to it by entering it on Patrick.net.

but sellers are, so that's what you have to work with I guess.

Zillow has the "make me move" feature which is a start I guess.

TBH tho I don't see why RedFin isn't unbeatable right now. It's the only site I go to (ten years ago I haunted mlslistings.com but it sucked then and it still sucks now).

Bellingham Bill says

but sellers are, so that's what you have to work with I guess.

Actually, sellers do not seem interested in maximum exposure for their listings!

There are a number of reasons sellers will not list on, say, Patrick.net:

* They want the ability to erase all history of a listing and re-list at a lower price while claiming that they did not reduce the price.

* Agents charged with disseminating listings may not really want the property to sell. In fact, they may want it to fail to sell so that they can get it themselves, or so that they can keep renting it out illegally.

* Sellers do not like this very forum, which is largely uncensored and where users might point out things about the property that the seller is trying to hide.

CaptainShuddup says

He'd inform me that I have to call a buyers agent.

You have a lot to say there that is true, but let me address the point about a buyer's agent.

Only one listing agent here in Seattle has an in house buyer's agent, or refers people to buyer's agents. He's a great agent, and his buyer's agent has been with him for over twenty years, maybe even thirty.

The listing agent doesn't want to be in a position of being a dual agent. In theory the listing agent represents the seller, and buyer's agent represents the buyer.

We are into a long debate, but here in Seattle in the 1980s we had a guy named Jim Stacy who was solely, a buyer's agent. He wrote books, and gave seminars. Great guy, who had lots of business before he retired. He actually sold his business to a gentleman who was a great business person, just not a very good agent.

As far as not accepting FHA. I had a VA buyer this year who couldn't get a deal to save his life. No one wanted a VA deal. He just bought in November, when the market had cooled. He got a nice house, everything he wanted, and at a good price.

When we startted there was nothing but junk that he would get all excited about, and I would have to calm him down. Last Spring was ridiculous.

As far as bank owned, that sit vacant, that's a fact of the business, and you have to deal with the people who deal with bank owned property. You can get a regular agent, but they are constantly lost, and confused by the Real Estate Owned market.

I'm still saying that you need to pick an agent who you can work with, and give them everything you've got, which includes loan approval.

So Terms of Use is used to violate freedom of speech

Terms of Use means what it says. Once the information is sent out to, or listed on a Zillow, Trulia, Craigslist, or redfin, it's fair game. I forgot Realtor.com.

The problem is no wants to then correlate it, store it, or turn into a website, because there is no money in it.

I had a loan approval my Credit score at the time was 720, it's in the 790's now, or the last time I looked.

I've already bought and the whole affair is now behind me. I use my story to justify to others how sometimes, it is just better to buy when the opportunity arises for a house you can live with the terms. With out trying to time the market bottom. My sanity is certainly worth more than that extra 20-30K difference I could have squeezed out eventually.
I ended up buying for 160K 2100 sqft, 10K lot, just minutes from the maul.

Back to the buyers agent. At least it sounds like your operation at least has a complete solution, I call the listing agent, he then patches me to his buyers agent. I would have loved that. In SoFla we're told to fend for our selves.
Many buyers agents I would call, were only interested in working on their list. They weren't interested in doing work on some house I found.
Then another theme I kept being told...

"if realtors know you WERE working with another realtor, they wont want to do business with you." I guess they don't like accountability and if I, the would be home buyer, picks a realtor that I think isn't working out. I am supposed to just tough it out with him, and be more receptive to the houses he's trying to pawn on me. Because the bank approved a loan up to 360K based on my salary, and all I want is a house worth only 150-175K.

You realtors seem to eager to defend the bad practices of the other, or not willing to respect the wishes of the buyer, in what they expect in or from an agent.

We buyers are looking for partner, not an educator. In this market, how in the hell can you possibly be the market and NOT get a School of hard knocks education? The realtor is just going over the shampoo instructions on the bottle at this point.

David Losh says

So Terms of Use is used to violate freedom of speech

Terms of Use means what it says. Once the information is sent out to, or listed on a Zillow, Trulia, Craigslist, or redfin, it's fair game. I forgot Realtor.com.

The problem is no wants to then correlate it, store it, or turn into a website, because there is no money in it.

I would definitely like to correlate it, store it, and turn that into a website, money or not.

But I can't legally get the data from any of those sources. They just don't share.

So I'm left with user data entry, which I have not figure out how to make work yet.

They just don't share.

Do you mean they don't want to feed so you have to input all the data by hand?

David Losh says

They just don't share.

Do you mean they don't want to feed so you have to input all the data by hand?

Yes, that's what I mean. They won't give me a nice feed of all their listings to republish, even if I agree to link back to them.

CaptainShuddup says

buyers are looking for partner

For a good Real Estate agent it is all business. The touchy feely crap is best for the huggers, and schmoozers.

There are a lot of agents in Florida who have been really busy working like dogs to make ends meet. So, yes there was probably a lot of rude responses.

My point is that really good Real Estate agents are really busy. It is very hard for an "outsider" to find a good agent. I've discussed that topic in other forums.

You do have to interview, and be willing to be interviewed by agents. It's a give, and take.

I personally would go to open houses of agents who have a lot of listings. Some of these people can be fast talkers, or you may talk with an assistant, but they would be a good resource. They may refer you to a buyer's agent they know, and work with.

David Losh says

For a good Real Estate agent it is all business. The touchy feely crap is best for the huggers, and schmoozers.

We could have just agreed early on then.

Ooh all of my post were disliked.

...and here I thought I was finally getting through to you.

it wasn't me.

CaptainShuddup says

Soooo, you're saying I'm so mean, Realtors hate me?

I'm saying you tend to get what you expect. It's no different with men who hate women or women who hate men. They always seem to find the bad ones. Battered women get battered in practically every relationship. Is it just bad luck? Is it that all men are wife beaters? No, it's bad choices. Sick women picking sick men. Is it really that all Realtors are crooks? Or, is it maybe possible that you're unwilling to take some personal responsibilty for your failure to do what it takes to learn how to screen an agent? How to treat people with respect so you get it in return? Birds of a feather flock together, and so on and so on and scooby dooby do....

ELC says

your failure to do what it takes to learn how to screen an agent

OK, you've kind of crossed a line with this comment, but let's stick with the fact that the Real Estate community is very closed, and cloistered.

No agent is going to come out, and be a buddy. Real Estate agents get a lot of rejection, if they aren't being rejected, they aren't talking to enough people. That leaves agents guarded, even though they may be bubbly, and effusive.

I've had this conversation a lot over the years on different forums. I know agents, and agents know me so I can kind of know who is good, and who isn't working. The public has it much, much harder.

David Losh says

I personally would go to open houses of agents who have a lot of listings. Some of these people can be fast talkers, or you may talk with an assistant, but they would be a good resource. They may refer you to a buyer's agent they know, and work with.

I would look for an agent who has a lot of listings and try to get them to take you on. I've found Realtors who handle a lot of buyers are for lack of a better term, losers. Losers are found at open houses too. The value of an open house is to scrounge up buyers for other houses. It rarely helps sell the open house. It's dishonest and inefficient. An agent's time is ALWAYS best spent getting new listings. Period. Not sitting in open houses or chauffeuring around "maybe" buyers. But that takes skill and ambition. Contrary to what most Realtors seem to believe, realty is selling, and selling is about getting someone to sign on the dotted line. If an agent isn't asking you to sign a contract they're a begger relying on the kindness of strangers. Expending time and gas without a written agreement is no way to do business. The only buyers I got involved with was if I had listed their house and was finding them a new home or was doing it as a favor. And boy did I regret those favors. Don't get me wrong. Thank heaven for the people who like to bring buyers or feel they have no choice. Thank heaven for people who work at McDonalds and who dig ditches too. Where would the world be without them. Just don't hire someone with a ditch diggers mentality to find you a home, "your single greatest "investment."

David Losh says

let's stick with the fact that the Real Estate community is very closed, and cloistered.
No agent is going to come out, and be a buddy. Real Estate agents get a lot of rejection, if they aren't being rejected, they aren't talking to enough people. That leaves agents guarded, even though they may be bubbly, and effusive.

Like I said in the previous post. It's really pretty simple. Prolific listing agents are going to be the ones you want to deal with. The ones who don't list are either part time, the soccer mom, the newby, the lazy, the ignorant. Go to personal or company websites and take a look at their listings. Look for someone who lists properties similar to the one you're interested in. Also try to speak to the broker because that's who you might have to go to if you're having trouble with the agent. Also stupidity often trickles down. If you like the broker ask them who they recommend for your situation but insist that they be a top LISTING producer. It also helps to deal with a RE/MAX agent. Once someone becomes a top producer they often wind up at RE/MAX because the commissions are highest and the hand holding is the lowest. You're basically renting office space. Franchises like Century 21 harbour idiots and newbies who thinks people hire them because of the brand. It's important they answer their phone too or at least return their voicemails at least twice a day. The rest is just getting a good gut feeling that you can work with this person. Don't follow the advice of websites that give you a list of stupid questions to ask like, "do you have any references." "How many homes will I see before I'm expected to buy." etc.

But the main point is that agents with lots of listings aren't part-time, they aren't starving, and they aren't inexperienced.