patrick.net

Errc:

Let's follow out the implications of a ban on guns

What happens when someone poisons hundreds at school via the school provided lunches? Than do we ban food?

I think the surest way to prevent something like this from happening again is to ban schools

onmyown:

A costitutional right (most of which you all are willing to give away in the name of safety) should not require a license. How about a background check so that you can exercise your free speech, or a license to carry a concealed religion. Do we really need trials, since so many criminals seem to game the system, that ridiculous 5th amendment could be legislated out.

FortWayne:

32,367 people have died in car accidents in 2011 alone. Why don't you ban cars you fool.

Call it Crazy:

and 100K died in hospitals... we need to ban hospitals too!!

PeterP:

For similar reasons progressives thought banning alcohol would fix all ills of the society. The American public is now older and wiser.

Thunderlips11:

If you really want to save the children, ban car ownership. Why should children die so lazy asses don't have to take the bus?

Banning Pools is another good idea. Both backyard and public pools are very dangerous for children, where the majority of drowning accidents happen. Given that about 10x more kids die from drowning accidents than gun accidents, it should be a bigger priority than gun bans.

"You don't need to swim".

You're right. People may be correct that banning assault guns doesn't accomplish much in the short run, since so many of those guns are already out there. But yeah, they sure have foolish ways of making their point. It's not like anyone is saying that banning those guns will do wonders.

The truth is that it won't make much of a difference in the short run, but as B Bill or someone pointed out, even working towards having way less assault guns 50 years from now is a good goal.

PLEASE CONSIDER THIS:

If they are illegal with a lot of govt pressure, how many less of them will be around 50 or 100 years from now, compared to if they are freely available all of that time?

My favorites:

Vaticanus says

Bull, as long as the military/police carry large magazines the citizens should expect to do the same. If there are ANY large cap magazines on US soil then we all ought to be free to own them.

Call it Crazy says

Once again, you are resorting to "emotions" and not logic.

I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed it or not, but the latter is a comment a lot of pro-firearm people people seem to like repeating over and over again in these kinds of debates with anti-gun people.

Suburban Gal says

I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed it or not, but the latter is a comment a lot of pro-firearm people people seem to like repeating over and over again

It's the new 'You're wrong, I'm right' with an insult and self congratulatory note all rolled into one. Not sure what the quotes are around emotions.

Guns are like remote controls for humans...

CaptainShuddup says

Guns are like remote controls for humans...

Yes, designed to extend one's kill radius to a mile or more.

New Renter says

Yes, designed to extend one's kill radius to a mile or more.

This is the "Bad gun analogy" thread, not the "101 practical uses for a gun" thread.

I just read this:

Call it Crazy says

100% Emotion and 0% Logic

Then the next thing I saw, from the same guy (different thread - his post):

Call it Crazy says

Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel plans on restricting gun ownership further by banning individuals with a violent misdemeanor conviction from getting a gun permit for five years. The mayor also hopes to ban convicted felons from ever owning a gun.

Emanuel's intentions are no doubt well intentioned, but like many cities with strict gun laws, the disarming of law-abiding citizens doesn't remove guns from the hands of those who wish to do harm. On the contrary, it often leaves innocent victims vulnerable to criminals.

Call it Crazy says

If you are shot with a 10 round magazine, are you only 1/3 dead compared to being shot with a 30 round mag.??

I see your point, but it is all about reload times. The ability to shoot 10 people or 30 people without having to reload.

Call it Crazy says

OK, let's see where this fits.... Dianne Feinstein is proposing limiting high capacity 30 round magazines and says the maximum amount should be 10 rounds.

So, is this emotion or logic??

It the desired effect is to limit the effectiveness of guns for suicidal mass murderers then I would weight this more on logic than emotion. Even a practiced person can take a few seconds to reload, and that is enough time for them to be tackled or people to get away.

Also, for self-defense it is very rare for more than 3-4 shots to be fired. Hell, when using a gun for self-defense 99.9% of the time no shots are fired. If you are keeping a gun at home for self-defense you don't want to leave magazines of any size loaded for long periods of time anyhow. The springs can start to wear out and that can lead to a jam. While I do own several high capacity magazines, the only gun that I keep loaded all the time is a .357 revolver.

The problem is that there are soooo many high capacity magazines floating around now I doubt a ban would have any impact for decades.

Yep. 357 seems ideal for home defense. No compressed springs issue. Easy to load and unload. No pulling slide. Robust and reliable. Jam free.

Call it Crazy says

OK, let's see where this fits.... Dianne Feinstein is proposing limiting high capacity 30 round magazines and says the maximum amount should be 10 rounds.

So, is this emotion or logic??

If you are shot with a 10 round magazine, are you only 1/3 dead compared to being shot with a 30 round mag.??

See, 100% Emotion and 0% Logic....

I agree, that was just dumb, to appease the liberal base. Now we all know a very easy way to get around this restriction, so criminals do it anyway (thought that may be a shock to the naive liberals out there), while honest people who use their firearms legally are stuck reloading every 10.

leo707 says

I see your point, but it is all about reload times. The ability to shoot 10 people or 30 people without having to reload.

Leo, criminals don't care if law says carry only 10 round mags. It does in CA, and I doubt criminals care. You and I might care, we have to, since we are law abiding. Criminals don't and won't.

Any inadequately enforce dlaw serves only to give criminals an advantage.

This applies to firearms, drugs, prostitution, and gambling.

Call it Crazy says

leo707 says

Even a practiced person can take a few seconds to reload, and that is enough time for them to be tackled or people to get away.

Looking at this past shooting, do you logically think that the few seconds it takes to change a magazine would have made any difference when this guy is standing in a doorway of a class room.

Multiple 10 round mags would have caused just as much death, as I doubt a 7 year old kid or a teacher would have tried to rush him between mag reloads.

We never will know, but shooters at mass shootings in the past have been tackled, and that is much easier to do during a reload.

FortWayne says

leo707 says

I see your point, but it is all about reload times. The ability to shoot 10 people or 30 people without having to reload.

Leo, criminals don't care if law says carry only 10 round mags. It does in CA, and I doubt criminals care. You and I might care, we have to, since we are law abiding. Criminals don't and won't.

Right, and that is why I say...
leo707 says

The problem is that there are soooo many high capacity magazines floating around now I doubt a ban would have any impact for decades.

I agree that even after the high capacity mags work their way out of the hands of law abiding citizens "common" criminals would still have access.

I think we need to remember though that the point of the high capacity ban is not to prevent your neighborhood mugger (who sometimes just use airsoft guns) from having a 15 round mag. The point is to put a dent in the damage that a mass shooter can do. The people who commit the mass shootings are generally not criminals in that they have connections to the criminal underworld. Often times the source of their guns is theft from a law abiding friend or relative. In a world where only criminals have high capacity magazines these mentally ill people just don't have the right connections to get them.

leo707 says

I agree that even after the high capacity mags work their way out of the hands of law abiding citizens "common" criminals would still have access.

Leo it is not because those are old magazines laying around, you can still make and sell high capacity magazines today. You just can't "use them", provided you want to obey the law.

leo707 says

In a world where only criminals have high capacity magazines these mentally ill people just don't have the right connections to get them.

Anyone can buy them today.

FortWayne says

while honest people who use their firearms legally are stuck reloading every 10.

What reasonable and legal use of a gun requires more than 10 rounds in one clip?

kunal says

FortWayne says

while honest people who use their firearms legally are stuck reloading every 10.

What reasonable and legal use of a gun requires more than 10 rounds in one clip?

What reasonable and legal use requires a car that can go faster than 65 MPH?

FortWayne says

leo707 says

I agree that even after the high capacity mags work their way out of the hands of law abiding citizens "common" criminals would still have access.

Leo it is not because those are old magazines laying around, you can still make and sell high capacity magazines today. You just can't "use them", provided you want to obey the law.

?
In California use is not banned, but all the other things you mentioned are.
?
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12020.php
12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.

FortWayne says

What reasonable and legal use requires a car that can go faster than 65 MPH?

Well, the highest legal speed limit in the US is 85...maybe another 5/mph after than for passing. I would say that there is no reasonable or legal use for a car to go over 90/mph.

CaptainShuddup says

One time use television off button, or commonly known as the Elvis remote.

lol

CaptainShuddup says

One time use television off button, or commonly known as the Elvis remote.

I thought that was the Homer Simpson remote.

leo707 says

I thought that was the Homer Simpson remote.

NO but he was the first to use a gun to open beer bottles.

IDDQD says

leo707 says

Common are you going to leave me hanging, that loophole is...?

You can sell them disassembled as rebuild kit for a pre-ban magazine already owned by buyer. This way the liability is shifted from seller to buyer: if latter does not in fact have pre-ban magazines he'll be assembling hi-cap mag, which is no-no.

Hmmmm...the assembly is still illegal. But it does seem to be a loophole in order to sell the high capacity mags. Somewhat useless for law abiding citizens. However, I suppose that if I had not already bought a bunch of mags before the ban I might get a couple kits to throw into the Cannibal Anarchy-day emergency kit.

leo707 says

Hmmmm...the assembly is still illegal. But it does seem to be a loophole in order to sell the high capacity mags. Somewhat useless for law abiding citizens. However, I suppose that if I had not already bought a bunch of mags before the ban I might get a couple kits to throw into the Cannibal Anarchy-day emergency kit.

Liberals, with good intentions of course, always do and will only disarm only law abiding citizens. And thank you for stating that in your own ways.

FortWayne says

What reasonable and legal use requires a car that can go faster than 65 MPH?

If you are caught going over the speed limit, in your e.g. 65 you get cited/ticketed etc.

Whats your point?

And my original question stands, when does one need more than 10 rounds in a clip?

FortWayne says

Liberals, with good intentions of course, always do and will only disarm only law abiding citizens. And thank you for stating that in your own ways.

A magazine capacity limit at 10 rounds is hardly disarming anyone.

Are you suggesting that we have zero regulation in terms of guns?

This is a thread about bad gun analogies, so to tie this comment into that I gotta say that I disagree that the car analogy is a "bad" one. I think that the car analogy for guns is right on. Cars are not "necessary"; they are extremely dangerous. It is silly that we ignore something as dangerous as cars (swimming pools to), and focus so much effort on guns if we are trying to maximize the prevention of deaths.

However, recognizing that cars are dangerous do we ban them? No, but we do restrict who can use cars (we have different licensing for different types of vehicles), we have regulation on how they are built, etc. All in order to try and reduce the death and misuse of cars.

Hell, people can be more scrutinized when adopting a dog than when buying a gun.

Are, guns not also dangerous?

kunal says

And my original question stands, when does one need more than 10 rounds in a clip?

I for one find my greater than 10-round clips very useful at the range. They allow me to maximize my shooting time without having to reload.

In very rare occasions they would be useful in self-defense situations.

Suburban Gal says

I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed it or not, but the latter is a comment a lot of pro-firearm people people seem to like repeating over and over again in these kinds of debates with anti-gun people.

They seem to like pretending that they hold a logical position, even though most of it is based on a belief that they could prevail against the federal government in an armed uprising, something that has never happened in the entire history of the United States, and has approximately a snowball's chance in hell of ever happening in the future.

Homeboy says

They seem to like pretending that they hold a logical position, even though most of it is based on a belief that they could prevail against the federal government in an armed uprising,

What do you think the armed uprising in Syria started with? Kitchen knives and tire irons?

Homeboy says

something that has never happened in the entire history of the United States, and has approximately a snowball's chance in hell of ever happening in the future.

In the current state of things, sure, but the US is not some special magical place immune to human nature and failings; and with its sociopolitical status frozen in time, never to change.

leo707 says

Hell, people can be more scrutinized when adopting a dog than when buying a gun.

For that matter, where are the child bearing licenses?

IDDQD says

You forgetting a 800 lbs gorilla in the room: adopting a dog (driving a car, flying an airplane) are not rights per US Constitution. Owning guns is. Any analogy that tries to omit this fact will be lacking.

I disagree, just because something is a constitutional right does not mean that it can be exercised by anyone, anywhere, at anytime.

I think that any analogy thats logical conclusion is a ban is a bad analogy.

FortWayne says

kunal says

FortWayne says

while honest people who use their firearms legally are stuck reloading every 10.

What reasonable and legal use of a gun requires more than 10 rounds in one clip?

What reasonable and legal use requires a car that can go faster than 65 MPH?

That's one of the best bad gun analogies yet. Thanks for posting. :D

FortWayne says

Liberals, with good intentions of course, always do and will only disarm only law abiding citizens. And thank you for stating that in your own ways.

As far as I know, Adam Lanza's mother was a law abiding citizen who legally purchased the high-capacity magazines that are currently allowed. How did that help her?

IDDQD says

You forgetting a 800 lbs gorilla in the room: adopting a dog (driving a car, flying an airplane) are not rights per US Constitution. Owning guns is. Any analogy that tries to omit this fact will be lacking.

Try exercising your First Amendment rights by yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded room. See where that gets you.