patrick.net

Other examples of our cluelessness:

http://www.nickelcore.com/2012/12/big-box-low-wages/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/25/magazine/skills-dont-pay-the-bills.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

If we were to pay teachers like Doctors, we wouldn't have enough teachers in this country that would pass the muster. I doubt if 10% would make it.

CaptainShuddup says

If we were to pay teachers like Doctors, we wouldn't have enough teachers in this country that would pass the muster. I doubt if 10% would make it.

We got too many Doctors and many would be happy to switch over to being teachers for the same pay. You would get the same thing happening with Engineers, Business executives, Financial experts, etc. etc. In the end you would get enough teachers.

The second two points are dead on. But I disagree with the first. I don't think an elementary school teacher should be paid the same as a heart surgeon or brain surgeon.

An elementary school teacher can make mistakes all day, but if the surgeon makes a few mistakes in a surgery-well, the patient is dead.

If this were true, I would be interested to know how many Norweigiens study to be doctors and do they have to bring in a lot of doctors from third world countries??

Nobody said a teacher needs to be paid the same as a surgeon, only as a doctor. I also agree if the pay rate was comperable finding highly skilled teachers would be no problem at all. The world is full of Ph.D.s (doctors) who would love to teach if they could make a good living at it.

lostand confused says

An elementary school teacher can make mistakes all day, but if the surgeon makes a few mistakes in a surgery-well, the patient is dead.

School teachers are charged with developing the minds of the next generation.

Bad ones do immense damage, good ones certainly earn their pay!

lostand confused says

An elementary school teacher can make mistakes all day, but if the surgeon makes a few mistakes in a surgery-well, the patient is dead.

Depends on whether you think health care is a public service (like teaching) or a business.

In the US, it's quite clear how health care is considered.

[citation needed]

Also, reddit is like talking politics on 4chan, you would probably get more insight from a potato.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

CaptainShuddup says

If we were to pay teachers like Doctors, we wouldn't have enough teachers in this country that would pass the muster. I doubt if 10% would make it.

We got too many Doctors and many would be happy to switch over to being teachers for the same pay. You would get the same thing happening with Engineers, Business executives, Financial experts, etc. etc. In the end you would get enough teachers.

Yep, and all the "bad" ones would be pushed out of the job. Teaching in Finland is a highly respected profession.

Bellingham Bill says

I really can't think of anything the US is doing better than anywhere else, honestly.

Yeah I had to look it up.

Cheese production
Foreign aid
Billionaire creation
Miles of roads
CO2 emission reductions
Patent applications
Worker productivity
Research universities
Rollercoasters
Protected marine areas
Number of cats and dogs
Legal immigrants
Generosity (volunteering, helping strangers, and donating money)
Patriotism/nationalism

Bellingham Bill says

Not that anywhere else is 100% better than us in all areas, but we certainly don't have any monopoly on good public policy.

Funny thing is that the last item on the list "patriotism" keeps people from thinking that there are things that other countries do better, and that we should change our ways and learn from them.

USA!USA!USA!

leo707 says

I really can't think of anything the US is doing better than anywhere else, honestly.
Yeah I had to look it up.
Cheese production
Foreign aid
Billionaire creation
Miles of roads
CO2 emission reductions
Patent applications
Worker productivity
Research universities
Rollercoasters
Protected marine areas
Number of cats and dogs
Legal immigrants
Generosity (volunteering, helping strangers, and donating money)
Patriotism/nationalism

You forget prisoners. We throw more people in jail than any nation on earth.

lostand confused says

You forget prisoners.

Yeah, I was just cheating off a list from an article. I believe that we are also the largest recreational consumers of illicit drugs.

lostand confused says

The second two points are dead on. But I disagree with the first. I don't think an elementary school teacher should be paid the same as a heart surgeon or brain surgeon.

I suppose the question is why not? I ask because if you look at what the single most expensive purchase a person will make is their house. What is the single most important thing to 95% of those who buy who also have or want to have kids: " How good are the schools?" and as such, MORE emphasis is placed on the schools than any other single factor. As a result, people pay way more to live near good schools and thus pay more in property taxes, and so on.

So if that be the case, the pay should match that demand and emphasis. Pay teachers more and perhaps attract more talent to make schools better and thus an increase in home values, property taxes, and then of course better educated children who in turn will make more money to buy the more expensive homes their parents bought previously. Schools are in many ways the heart of a community. As such a healthy school with good, well-paid teachers is vital to the health of that community and the local economy.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

You would get the same thing happening with Engineers, Business executives, Financial experts, etc. etc. In the end you would get enough teachers.

But But but we have a Smartie deficit remember?
Last I heard we're to dumb fat and stupid because we eat meat on a stick dipped in butter and lard, with a sugar crusty coating.

New Renter says

The world is full of Ph.D.s (doctors) who would love to teach if they could make a good living at it.

Ah the World, but of course.

"Sit down in that chair Son, Hodgie is going to show you how it's done. "

New Renter says

Nobody said a teacher needs to be paid the same as a surgeon, only as a doctor.

Perhaps teachers should be paid the same as someone with a doctorate in Child and Family Studies.

LOL :-)

No discussions on pay fairness can be genuine unless and until Free Market is allowed to set wages.

CaptainShuddup says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

You would get the same thing happening with Engineers, Business executives, Financial experts, etc. etc. In the end you would get enough teachers.

But But but we have a Smartie deficit remember?

Last I heard we're to dumb fat and stupid because we eat meat on a stick dipped in butter and lard, with a sugar crusty coating.

You just had to go and throw deap fried meat on a stick coated in sugar now, didn't you? Asshole

With pancakes!

Peter P says

No discussions on pay fairness can be genuine unless and until Free Market is allowed to set wages.

This is so obviously false, because at some point industries are so mature that they are semi-monolopolistic with ma and pa small start ups no longer feasable, and automation, and other factors causing unemployment to be too much in the employers favor, that people will be underpaid possibly for entire generations before "the market" finally works things out.

This is true in this country now. Because of tax structure, and other dissincentives, workers are underpaid in many jobs, only because the employers can under pay them. The current "market" tells them this is "fair."

Eventually, as an entire economy, which is driven by domestic consumption, is adversely affected by low wages, profit of the companies will go down, thus completing a sort of self fulfilling prophecy.

There are times when policy and or regulations should intervene.

And we all know of recent historical examples of markets totally not working. (eg.: bubbles - which are an example of markets not working in the opposite of the way I have been describing).

CaptainShuddup says

If we were to pay teachers like Doctors, we wouldn't have enough teachers in this country that would pass the muster. I doubt if 10% would make it.

Well, actually if we paid teachers that well, many of those now teaching wouldn't have gotten in to it, because of that market, and perhaps because of education requirements and competition at that level.

But if it were to change today, and not including union contracts and so on, I believe that more than 60% of current teachers would make the cut, because of experience and effectiveness.

There is a lot that is gained with experience teaching. Something like 50% of those who start teaching recently, do so for less than 5 years, because of how stressful and difficult it is, and I guess because of the pay relative to how hard it is. Many of those who survive, do so because they figure out how to be effective, and how to manage their classes.

leo707 says

Billionaire creation

that's like cheering for cancer

True, it's not that far. But you're talking a high school teacher in an expensive (high paying city), with probably 12 years or more experience.

My guess is that the average doctor with that much experience makes at least 150K. And you can even remove all of the guys that make over 300K before you take the average.

Teachers:

http://www.teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state/

Doctors:

http://www.profilesdatabase.com/resources/2011-2012-physician-salary-survey

By the way, I don't think teachers should be paid as well as physicians. Although, if we had a system that covered the cost of educating doctors (and even subsidized their living expenses while in school), then in that case the pay should probably be somewhat closer.

Imagine that, if all medical students had to worry about was performing well, and if greed was not factor for being in medicine (not that it's THAT big of a factor so often here, now under our system).

I wonder how good our health care would be under such a totally non-market based system. The market would still be there - paying them fairly well, and of course they get the professional respect for being a doctor as well as the satisfaction of helping people in such important life altering ways.

I guess the free market extremists are going to say that many of the most talented doctors are (or were) driven by financial ambition, and that without that they may not have become doctors.

I totally reject that idea.

And while I can not prove it, and its just an assertion of what I consider to be obvious, my belief is that in the very long term, if we survive as a species, these questions of capitalism versus socialism (as if it must be one or the other), and free markets versus some government regulation and investment and even government control of some services, will be resolved and will seem silly (but interesting) when looked back on.

That is (and I'm not talking the immediate future), there has to eventually be more of what is often incorrectly referred to as socialism. Fighting this is understandable, because of the interests that lose out, but I wish the evolution wasn't as slow as it is.

Lol, America's health care is WAY over rated. The only reason it's great is because it's for profit and the best doctors in the world would come here to work for the most money.

Professions should be for people who want to do the profession, not because of the money. That's where the problem lies, doing something for money and not because you enjoy doing it.

everything says

That's where the problem lies, doing something for money and not because you enjoy doing it.

People marry for money too. It takes all kinds to make the world. Someone born in poverty or someone whose family lost it all, may have a burning ambition to make it big. Someone who was born with a silver spoon may not be the least bit interested in climbing the ladder and may enjoy surfing or yoga or whatever.

I think it takes all kinds to make the world and that is good-it keeps it interesting. Can you even imagine if everybody thought and acted the same??!

IDDQD says

marcus says

My guess is that the average doctor with that much experience makes at least 150K. And you can even remove all of the guys that make over 300K before you take the average.

I seriously doubt teachers in Finland earn that much money.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Why-Are-Finlands-Schools-Successful.html?c=y&page=1

"[Teachers] selected from the top 10 percent of the nation’s graduates to earn a required master’s degree in education."

"The second critical decision came in 1979, when reformers required that every teacher earn a fifth-year master’s degree in theory and practice at one of eight state universities—at state expense. From then on, teachers were effectively granted equal status with doctors and lawyers. Applicants began flooding teaching programs, not because the salaries were so high but because autonomy and respect made the job attractive. In 2010, some 6,600 applicants vied for 660 primary school training slots, according to Sahlberg."

IDDQD says

And yet, their salaries are on par with American counterparts, or, according to comment on that site, even lower:

You are right it is not all about pay. Well, they do give the top 10% of students a free ride if they choose to become teachers, and I am sure that helps.

You should read the whole article I posted it gives the entire story on how they built one of the best educational systems in the world. Unfortunately many of the things they did would never get off the ground in the US.

I just want to say that Finland's pre-capita health costs for 2011 was $3305 (a full $5000 below the US).

Doctors aren't the long pole in the tent here in the US, but I do know that Japan's doctors do consider themselves grossly underpaid by their single-payer system (and Japan too is at $3300/yr per-capita).

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-health/total-expenditure-on-health-per-capita_20758480-table2

So being "paid like doctors" can work both ways, LOL

IDDQD says

I suspect the other two are full of shite too.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/07/05/ten-years-after-decriminalization-drug-abuse-down-by-half-in-portugal/

Baugur chief indicted in Iceland

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e5d4122e-4874-11e2-a6b3-00144feab49a.html#axzz2FjO8qf1M

it is true that Iceland told the continent to F off, they'd lost their money, more or less.

Having their own currency was also a way to soft-default. . .

http://www.frbatlanta.org/cenfis/pubscf/nftv_1103.cfm

IDDQD says

So the picture is debunked. No surprise really: oversimplified "answers" like that are rarely true. I suspect the other two are full of shite too.

Yeah, the other two would have to be fact checked before I took them too seriously.