patrick.net

lostand confused says

Kevin says

The men on here are seriously damaged, lonely people.

Or hen pecked sissies who have no clue about what a man is supposed to be.

Or lost and confused ;)

Kevin says

The men on here are seriously damaged, lonely people.

Aren't you yourself a man "on here"?

61.1% of [Japanese] men said they did not want their partners to have a secret savings account. On the other hand, 64.7% of [Japanese] women said they planned on making a secret savings account.

http://www.japancrush.com/2012/stories/women-still-want-control-of-family-finances-reveals-survey.html

New Renter says

Kevin says

The men on here are seriously damaged, lonely people.

Aren't you yourself a man "on here"?

I'm the exception that proves the rule.

Kevin says

The men on here are seriously damaged, lonely people.

Married for 20 years, Dec 26th.

There does seem to be a lot of single guys or at least not married guys commenting here.
Never take marriage advice from a divorcee or unmarried dude.
I was working abroad one year, and my wife was really putting me through the emotional wringer over it. Rather than tell me that she was uncomfortable with my working out of the country or that she missed me, she instead deflected her feelings by picking a fight and threatening a divorce. I was talking with a guy that I had a few drinks with at the exec lounge, that I had seen around and gotten friendly with. Because he was the only other American. He was a business man there to expand his companies markets. A fat balding sad and lonely looking soul.
He was giving me advice...

"If you want her to come around, then don't call her..."
"Don't call her for a few days, that will straighten her out."

I asked him if he was married. He said "no I'm divorced, but I've been married three times. "

I bought a plane ticket and flew back that night. I didn't want to end up being that guy.

Wow, the response has been overwhelming and thanks to everyone for sharing.

There does seem to be quite a bit of negative (even bitter) sentiment on marriage here. Much of that certainly depends on what your experience has been. If you feel like you've been burned, it's understandable that your outlook will be that of caution and/or resentment and I appreciate the feedback. Regardless of where you stand on this issue, it sounds like the law is generally not in favor of the bread winner which is more often that not, the man. Do you guys remember the flack that Steve Young (former 49ers QB) for never agreeing to marry his partner despite being together for years and having kids together? It's a bit more clear now.

One concept that is interesting to me (it was mentioned above with Korea) is that as women's equality continues to catch up with their male counterpart, the divorce rate goes up. We often portray traditional roles as a positive thing that helped keep marriage together, but that also begs the question... Did marriages have a higher rate of staying together in those traditional roles because the women didn't have as many options? That's hard to dispute. But one thing is for sure, teams work best when there is a leader and a strong supporting cast. When people know their unique roles, accept them, and respect other member's roles, things generally work well. If you have two members that constantly think they are the alpha, they are the leader, they do this or that better, it's going to result in problems.

Here are some key points that stand out. Always expect less than you give and be ok with it. Don't be ok with 90/10, but be ok with 60/40 because a 50/50 expectation will naturally sway to one side too frequently. Next, we all agree that sex generally slows down. As a result, you must be friends with your wife. I will say that is a fine line because I did have a relationship fail once because we became better friends than lovers. And that caused all sorts of unexpected relationship problems. I loved spending time with her and we always had a blast, but I lost some of my romantic interest in her. Third, it's the man's job to keep things romantic!

Someone above mentioned something about having your wild oats sown before getting married. That's a slippery slope. Statistics show that the less sexual partners an individual has had in their life, the less likely they are to divorce. I personally don't believe in the, "I got that out of my system and now ready to get married" mentality. If you felt the need to "get that out of my system" then you have that in your system.

Also, I always considered guys like Charlie Sheen to be a socially deviant monster. Then I got into my 30s, read more and more responses like the ones here, and don't judge him anymore, lol.

And jebus, the Hulk Hogan situation. Don't even get me started. OJ actually comes to mind... As Chris Rock mentioned in the stand-up bit that included Ron Goldman being spotted driving around Nicole's Ferrari around town that OJ bought her..., "I'm not saying what OJ did was right, but I understand." Hats off to Hulk for keeping a level head and never doing anything drastic (kidding about the Chris Rock part).

BRP001 says

You don’t know someone or how much someone might hurt you until they’ve been presented with considerable temptation (the kind that’s worthy of betrayal). Trust only to the extent that you can survive betrayal’s cost.

That's tough... The problem with this is that someone's position on this can change at anytime. Year 5 of the marriage, they would never succumb to temptation of any kind, just no way right? But year 10, their resentment has grown, their unhappy with this or that, and now that same temptation might have a different outcome. It's F'd up. Don't neglect your spouse folks.

The sense of entitlement is a very strong thing. It's amazing how your mind can sway towards, "I deserve to get the house since he treated me poorly" or "I'm entitled to get 70% of the assets since I gave him 10 years of my life" or "I am entitled to walk away from my mortgage because the banks are responsible for the housing crisis" or "Ya, I murdered my ex wife but she was toying with my emotions, stealing my money, letting her new boy-toy drive my Ferrari around town for everyone to see and I should go free as a result." We are professionals at giving into feelings of entitlement, especially when the laws (such as marriage/divorce) support them.

Bap33 says

If only the dad's were able to make sure the funds went ONLY to child support.

Agreed. The current system just BEGS for abuse... If this could be done, guys wouldn't be as fearful to get married.

propitup1 says

I don't think I understand Americans anymore,

I think Americans have lost or forgotten the importance of loyalty. Loyalty to their wife , to their husband, and to the family unit. I would even venture to say that Americans don't even feel the need to be loyal to their own country or people anymore.

The problem is that the gov creates incentives to walk on that loyalty. F you government.

mell says

The hookup culture is not a new phenomenon, it is just a different manifestation of humans natural polyamory because it is now more accepted. This bullshit about how marriages were great and sanct in the (insert your favorite decade here) is just complete hogwash.

100% agree. The only difference between hook-up culture today and (insert your favorite decade here) is that it's more electronically documented than it's ever been.

And do women really file 70% of the divorces in the USA? REALLY? Even with them being the partner with the "clock?" If so, that's absolutely nuts and is as glaring a revelation regarding who the law favors as you can possibly have!

Buster says

Religion % have been divorced

Jews 30%

Born-again Christians 27%

Other Christians 24%

Atheists, Agnostics 21%

If you notice, the divorce rate is 50% and all the % above are below 50%. Does that mean that marriages having partners with differing religious beliefs represent a divorce rate that is significantly higher than 50%?

rufita11 says

zzyzzx says

BRP001 says

Unfortunately for her, all of my investments were locked up tight and untouchable. She got nada.

Exactly how does one do this?

I am a woman and I want to know how to do this. I get anxious thinking that one day, he could walk away and take half of everything I have worked so hard for.

This happened to a

female executive I know. Her deadbeat husband promised to get a job after the kids were out. He decided it would be best to take a very, very early retirement. She was having none of that, but it cost her dearly.

Depends on the state and depends on when you implement the asset protection. What I did won't work in all states. You have to talk to a good lawyer that specializes in estates and trusts to find out what protections you can use in your state. Any jointly owned assets are open to distribution in court. I'm unusual in that I had trusts setup for asset protection to avoid loss from law suits before marriage. There were no joint assets either. Also, I did not comingle accounts. There were no children either, which makes a big difference in some cases.

Kevin says

New Renter says

Kevin says

The men on here are seriously damaged, lonely people.

Aren't you yourself a man "on here"?

I'm the exception that proves the rule.

Me too! What a coincidence!

I'll admit, I'm "lonely people", that's the way single life is, you get used to it, and just get yourself a pet, it's really not half bad. I never succumbed to the pressure to marry and am happy with that decision. I'll still always have a girlfriend around, with western entitlement princes's being so lacking in character or ability, while being so divorce happy, their is no shortage of singles at any age.

everything says

just get yourself a pet, it's really not half bad

Doesn't the lube get expensive?

Kevin says

New Renter says

Kevin says

The men on here are seriously damaged, lonely people.

Aren't you yourself a man "on here"?

I'm the exception that proves the rule.

Kevin says

everything says

just get yourself a pet, it's really not half bad

Doesn't the lube get expensive?

AHA! so THAT'S your secret!

Kevin says

Doesn't the lube get expensive?

I'm really not THAT worried about peak oil making Vaseline too expensive.

I do think the multiple wives idea is a good one.

WTF is it now with the singles bashing? Back in the days when I was singl-ish, it sometimes happened that I had a hot girl in the morning and a different one at night - I was king of Fuck mountain! Not a bad way to live. You can be lonely inside with 100 girls, with 1 girl or with no girls, but I'd rather be lonely fucking than fucking lonely.

Bap33 says

I do think the multiple wives idea is a good one.

Disagree.

I think most men who have ONE wife can attest to that.

MsBennet says

If you men are expecting someone to "worship the ground on you walk on," that is a very immature notion, something out of a science fiction novel. But keep on keeping on....and remain single. The fact that you "need" to be worshipped is a clue there is something wrong with you. Grow up, please.

That's a typical reaction. What's there to grow up? In fact it's rather the fact that he is grown up and now has better perspective/experience that changed his views. It has nothing to do with men expecting to be worshipped, in fact I would find that a bit boring. However if you have the choice between this and an eternal nagger that can't do much in the household without getting pissed off, the choice is clear. For years men have been told to "grow up" and do their own chores in the household, as if this were such a difficult skill to acquire (they simply didn't want to do it). Now that most do run at least part of the household and work their usual full-time bread-winning jobs, the American woman is unnecessary, unless she enhances the man's life. The same is true vice versa, however most American women still want/need the convenience of having a man at their service to either earn a boatload of money or do all that shit work around the house they don't want to do (or both), not to mention the chivalry without which they become so depressed that they have to see a shrink. Lastly, don't take this as a sweeping generalization, obviously you and many others may be different, but as an obvious trend ;)

mell says

The same is true vice versa, however most American women still want/need the
convenience of having a man at their service to either earn a boatload of money
or do all that shit work around the house they don't want to do (or both), not
to mention the chivalry without which they become so depressed that they have to
see a shrink.

So true. My granparents were farmers. My grandma worked till the day she had my mom. A couple of days later she was back at work and she pretty much had the same cycle for a few more kids she had. She was always busy and was a tremendous asset to my grandpa. No way could he have pulled it off without her.

Today's housewives have everything ready-electric stoves, food/milk etc at the grocery store, heaters/ac, clothes at the mall. Then they only have one or two kids and it is not like they grow their own food, milk the cows or sew their own clothes. They have a car that takes them from place to place and then when the man comes home-he needs to add to the chores-what chores????

My grandma used to take pride at her work and mom had to go to school and help with farm chores pretty early in life. Today's alimony laws are just preposterous-especially the higher income ones. The higher income a husband brings in-the less work-you have everything from nannies to maids, drivers, vacations. So in the case of divorce-move on with your life-you enjoyed a lifestyle without much work-it is over , now go get a job or start a business.

Been married for 7 years. My wife lives within a budget, doesn't demand expensive things, and really enjoys life - she especially loves living on the California coast and has no problem with my surfing addiction.

Her family is great, she cooks like a chef, keeps the house organized and educates our two children (ages 3 and 5).

Some may look at marriage as a ball and chain. But it's not always the case. Just gotta find the right one :)

For those who have been divorced/burned. Sure, I see the other side. Guess I'm one of the lucky ones.

The laws are the problem. They need to change and accept women as equals- fully capable of taking risks and responsibility.

Married for 7 years happy with my choice. We are an agnostic/atheist couple and I don't think religion has SQUAT to do with marriages. Even in the most religious "primitive Baptist" couple I know, there's this out called "unevenly yoked". Sort of like the Catholic thing with anulment, they get to claim they are not equal believers in Christ so they get an exit from a marriage that's not working out.

I had fears and doubts beforehand, but held my breath and jumped off the diving board anyways. One can be needlessly terrified by the "til death do us part".

I think divorce is a good thing as an option actually. As a couples counselor once said "well if it doesn't work out, there are exits". You might get hit by a bus next year and never live long enough to see your beloved turn into a jerk anyhow.

Young men giving up on marriage: ‘Women aren’t women anymore’

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/young-men-giving-up-on-marriage-women-arent-women-anymore

Peter P says

worship the ground you walk on, and never make you doubt her devotion.

When I was talking about a man needing to be worshiped, I was referring to this statement. Most men know better, I would think.

Oxygen says

Young men giving up on marriage: ‘Women aren’t women anymore’

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/young-men-giving-up-on-marriage-women-arent-women-anymore

here's the best comment from the article, in my opinion, and i think it's even better than the article itself

"There are many factors. While the Feminist doctrine has marganalized good men, it has also created a culture where more young men are inclined to see women as merely objects for sex in much the same way hardcore militant feminism taught many young women to be independent and see men as only necessary for breeding. No doubt this has been passed on to a younger generation of men who likewise will also be indoctrinated to see women as only necessary for sexual pleasure and who only expect the same from them, because marriage and the patriarchial responsibilities of it are no longer acceptable in the modernist world.

But good men who understand this are also discouraged. Divorce makes many men worried about ever getting into a relationship. Boys increasingly raised in a society where marriages break down are unlikely to think it's worth the trouble. Ridiculous laws in divorce cases that favor women and make men slaves to courtroom declarations where their wealth is given to the woman who also gets full custody of the children is also very worrisome regardless of the circumstances. Men are no longer guaranteed their offspring. Men are increasingly told they have no say if the woman wants to abort their children.

Marriage itself is constantly becoming more meaningless. Pornography is increasingly rampant in destroyign the bonds between men and women. And as society breaks down it creates uncertainty about the future with regards to the world we live in and would bring children into and economically depressing, that even otherwise men inclined to be responsible are put off from ever getting married because the future looks bleak.

Turning this around requires a return to the patriarchy, and proper institution of marriage and respect for sex within marriage. By containing the power of sex within marriage under the patriarchy, it forces men to improve themselves and become responsible patriarchs before even entering in marriage. The Patriarchy and institution of marriage therefore utilized men's sex drives in a positive way to createa nd build a stable society. And patriarchial rights and the permanence of the marriage relationship without divorce maintained this stability. Patriarchies also have the added benefit of protecting women. No man could take advantage of a girl for sex. Today a man could court your 14 year old ddaughter and so long as he gets legal 'consent' he can have sex with her, privately get her pregnancy aborted at Planned Parenthood, then dump her. Parents can't do anything. Under a patriarchy, no man could even consider courting a girl without going through her father first. If he dared to, then he would have violated the patriarch's right (A daughter was considered legal property of the father for this reason, not because women are the lesser of men), and justice would have been severe.

However Hollywood and liberalism have painted a distorted view of the patriarchial system by focusing on ways it can be abused, much like hos they have demonized men to seem like drunken monsters despite the reality. In many ways women were even happier having the freedom to do what they wanted within the family and raise children while the men worked. Feminism was initially promoted as a 'Sleeping Beauty Feminism' doctrine that encouraged women to be more independent and enter the workforce as if they were wasting their abilities by being homemakers. This approach completely failed with women who were overall happy with their situation. It wasn't until Feminism was pushed as the 'Suffering Saints Faminism' where the campaign focused on those women who were abused by demonic men that feminism finally started to take hold. It was all in how you frame it. There were plenty of legitimate reasons for the Women's Rights movement in the modern era. However Feminism isn't the same thing. It merely piggybacked on women's rights. Many Christian women in the Women's Rights movement only wanted accomodations to be made in the absence of men to prevent themselves being taken advantage of and to have their say in government policy through voting etc. Even the Old Testament laws make accomodations for women who find themselves without a husband for various circumstances who were in danger of losing their rightful priveledges. Feminism on the other hand was primarily driven by Communists who wished to make women workers subservient to the State contributing to production and consumerism. Basically cogs in the machine. The Church, Family, children and patriarchs and Marriage stood in the way. So these had to be destroyed so that the people would depend on the state and work for the benefit of the state. That is feminism's origin. The rise of feminism and increased socialism and communism and practical atheism is all part and parcel of everything we observe happening around us."

I’m well educated, make great money, own my own home, have a great career and money in the bank. I’ve been called handsome, am 6’ 2” and have no health issues. I’m one of those people that lives well below his means. I save a large portion of my disposable income for retirement and won’t count on any government entitlements. Regardless of what the government keeps saying, they’ll all be bankrupt by then. Anyone that believes otherwise has a rude awakening coming their way. The country as a whole is already deep in debt. All statistical trends say that it’s just going to get worse – much, much worse.

I’ve researched marriage and divorce intensively and will never risk putting my life in the hands of someone that might use the current laws to destroy me, ever again. I’m divorced and got away unscathed, but that didn’t stop that evil creature from trying to take everything she could get on the way out. I am shocked that anyone gets married anymore – especially if you have a lot to lose in divorce. It’s just too easy to take someone to the cleaners on a whim. Seriously – you don’t even have to have a reason. Just have an affair and/or just walk out. Besides the paperwork, that’s really all there is to it. You can literally walk out with no consequences whatsoever. Who are these people taking this risk with their futures??? If you’re the breadwinner and you have children, kiss your future goodbye. Marriage today is little more than fraud waiting to happen. I have opted out and nothing will change my mind. Given the current divorce environment, I’m grateful and very happy to be living on my own and will remain that way. My heart goes out to those that have their lives destroyed through divorce. I’ve read hundreds of your stories and am both heartbroken and enraged at the current state of what used to be the most sacred of unions.

Look at every statistic related to morality from 1960 forward. They all trend the same way – to a corrupt and valueless society. Look at birth rates, out of wedlock births, divorce rates, marriage rates, welfare rates, and today’s hook up culture. Look at the way media portrays relationships. Look at the social programming that goes into convincing men to fulfill a role that is no longer valued. Look at the push to legalize controlled substances. It’s bad enough we have so many alcoholics – lets open the flood gates on other mind altering substances? Look at the rapid rise and spread of STDs, some of which are incurable. Look at the number of households now headed by single adults. Look at the attempt to remove religion from our schools. Look at the rise in violence initiated by women. Look at the feminization of the male and masculinization of the female. Look at statistics related to depression. Look at the candy store of prescription drugs prescribed to the masses of people that can no longer cope with our society. Look at the ease of obtaining porn and the ease of obtaining abortion (both for the most part now free of charge). Look at premarital sex. Look at how easy it is to divorce. Look at the fact that our country has been edging toward financial collapse for decades and look at the debt being left to future generations. Look at the fact that almost no family can survive on a single income (unless financed by taxpayer dollars through welfare). Look at corporate corruption and greed, outsourcing, and how global trade impacted the manufacturing sector. It used to be that living on the wrong side of any of these statistics was wrong and you were shunned if you lived there. Now, living on the wrong side of these statistics is for the most part accepted, sometimes encouraged and frequently even celebrated.

Why is it that the only statistic that’s trending in a supposedly positive direction is the rise in power and wealth of women? Why is every other statistic trending rapidly and precariously in the wrong direction but that one? Hmmm – what’s that word I’m looking for???? I know it rhymes with Marxism, Stalinism, Socialism, and Communism…I think it maybe starts with an ‘F’.

There’s nothing like those good old intended consequences. Yes…I said intended consequences.

The society has been consumed by nihilism.

Peter P says

nihilism

That's what I just said! ;)

BRP001 says

Peter P says

nihilism

That's what I just said! ;)

I don't agree with everything you posted, (for example I don't connect the loss of moral values and rise of feminism or gender wars to extramarital sex and recreational drugs), but I can see your point of view and why you're not getting married again. There's simply no upside ;) By the way in earlier years where a patriarchical approach was more common some of the guys still had affairs (and so did the women), the difference however is that each gender had their roles carved out and were responsible to fulfill those. It's more difficult these days when people are growing up with the I-can-have-it-all rah-rah spewed from the media at them, It's simple: No, you can't ;)

Agreed. There is no one thing to blame. Nor do I believe one gender is to blame more than the other. I'm an equal opportunity blamer. Don’t cherry pick my analysis! :O

Ground breaking research regarding our conversations at the below link:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/kBYcyDoh-XI

Monogamy is sure tricky, but a worthwhile experiment with the right woman (READ: not a bracelet). Some think it's totally unnatural. Could be. However, I think things like unconditional love and loyalty are some of the most profoundly beautiful traits any human being could posses.

I think it helps if this woman is a solid friend first -- someone you just like being around, and whose opinions you actually seek out on various matters. The romance should grow out of that, I think. Just my opinion.

I'm in no position to give advice, but based on my own failures, I would suggest to any man to try not to let your weaknesses show too much. Stoicism and grace under pressure is paramount in a relationship. Even when you don't feel very strong, you must act like you do. It will help the longevity of the thing.

Also important: you need your own room. A shed, garage, cave...whatever. It is not an option!

Oh! Here's one:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/rCF7Dnov8vA

BRP001 says

Oh! Here's one:

Great Glenn Ford flick!

JodyChunder says

BRP001 says

Oh! Here's one:

Great Glenn Ford flick!

Don't know why I started thinking about this stuff in this thread. Could it be all the love, marriage, children and morality issues being discussed? Naaaaaaah!

I sometimes wonder what people 60 years from now will think of us. What will their culture be like then? Will they look back with scorn at how foolish were were, or will they look back and say, "gee - those were the good old days." If the latter, I wish to die young.

Where is Patrick when you need him?

Marriage is relentless, ongoing warfare, in which each participant constantly jockeys for advantage and power over the other.

The combatants occasionally declare a truce and have sex. Declaring love and loyalty is a diversion or a sucker punch.

Nothing makes a girl's pudenda quiver like the sight of a totally defeated man, crawling and begging.

Women don't mind if you leave them, but only if you lead a lonely, miserable, and poverty stricken life and then die of some painful disease.

Strap a 20 year old model to your arm and get a yacht, they will commission a sniper.

Female here, and you guys are pathetic.

Marry someone who's your best friend, whose company you enjoy, who makes you laugh, whom you trust and care about. If you do, you will probably be happy. If you don't, you screwed up, and you have no one to blame but yourself.

There are no end of greedy, selfish people in the world, but you don't have to marry one. If you do, you need to learn how to be a better judge of character.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

When did you become sane?

I have fits of sanity just like any jackass.

Oxygen says

here's the best comment from the article, in my opinion, and i think it's even better than the article itself

Sorry man, this is complete and utter bullshit.

A marriage in THIS culture has to be a partnership, not a patriarchy. There will likely be times where the man is un/under employed and the woman is the main breadwinner. I personally know of two situations like this, one where the husband and wife are both believers in the patriarch model while the other marriage is more balanced. The patriarch couple is very stressed - the husband feels shitty because he is not earning and the wife is losing respect for him because she has to support them. The balanced couple has a LOT less stress.

A patriarchy is just not compatible with that situation. It is also a lousy model for kids.