patrick.net

Meccos says

the difficulties of becoming a physician is only partially about learning the subject matter, but also the sacrifices in time and effort which you do not seem to comprehend

In other words, barriers to entry that increase costs without improving results.

@Meccos, you're getting upset and contradicting yourself, please try switching to de-caf. You're also setting up an all-or-nothing false choice fallacy, i.e. all of the current medical industrial complex or faith healing. Other countries find plenty of middle ground. Some medicines are useful, others are not, but paid salesmen are not necessarily the best or most objective guides.

Hm. why are my posts being deleted... Lovely...

curious2 says

@Meccos, you're getting upset and contradicting yourself, please try switching to de-caf. You're also setting up an all-or-nothing false choice fallacy, i.e. all of the current medical industrial complex or faith healing. Other countries find plenty of middle ground. Some medicines are useful, others are not, but paid salesmen are not necessarily the best or most objective guides.

yes, this is when people start resorting to personal insults or putting words into peoples mouth. I suppose my arguments are done here now..

BTW seriously why do people find the need to delete my posts. I believe 2-3 posts here were just deleted in the past few minutes...

Rin says

What point am I missing?

I'm sure I was clear.

People here are complaining that doctors make too much money.

I said NBA players make some 30 times more money for playing with a ball.

That makes it seem rather silly to complain about doctors' salaries.

Surely you can understand that, if you do actually make $700K a year.

What aren't you getting?

Meccos says

BTW seriously why do people find the need to delete my posts. I believe 2-3 posts here were just deleted in the past few minutes...

Because you challenge their little "nobody deserves anything... except me" world view.

curious2 says

Meccos says

the difficulties of becoming a physician is only partially about learning the subject matter, but also the sacrifices in time and effort which you do not seem to comprehend

In other words, barriers to entry that increase costs without improving results.

Yeah your so-called "barrier to entry" is called medical school and residency. Yes you actually have to spend some time to learn the stuff... Heaven forbid people actually force you to learn things in great detail before they let you cut people open or prescribe medications that may kill someone...

Its not like the "scientist and engineers" who can learn their craft during the 4 years of undergraduate school...

@curious

Instead of complaining about these "barriers", perhaps you should rebel against the medical establishment and go see the neighborhood shaman next time you have some serious medical issue...

curious2 says

Meccos says

the difficulties of becoming a physician is only partially about learning the subject matter, but also the sacrifices in time and effort which you do not seem to comprehend

In other words, barriers to entry that increase costs without improving results.

The so called "barriers" you suggest are called medical school and residency. THis is where doctors actually learn their craft. So you call it a barrier... I find that funny.

This is the second time posting this since someone deleted my previous post...

Homeboy, here's what you don't seem to understand about the nature of work.

If non-NBA small leagues had their own advertisement money flowing in, then playing professional basketball would be a lower paid profession. Instead, in America, if one is not up to David Stern's standards of athleticism, then there's little chance of ever playing in his ball club. Since no one else has created an alternative league, to challenge him for ratings, the NBA serves as a de facto monopoly. And thus, as an umbrella organization, how they break up their earnings, call it profit/loss statement, is up to them. That's the nature of ownership.

In my field, hedge fund work, a similar principle applies, however, allegedly, anyone with deep pockets can join in. In the end, the combination of pooled capital and trading techniques (or sometimes insider information), determines who stays and who fades away. And then, inside a particular fund, a profit/loss statement determines compensation and that's why you read about these fellows, earning $1M to $100M per year. Again, this isn't about labor, it's about the ownership of capital. And thus, I'm now aware that it's a lot different, being on a team, where one's essentially a part-owner vs a worker bee. But looking at it from a wider perspective, what I really am is a salesman, shoring up the clients and protecting our interests.

Outside of the above, most lines of work revolve around the concept of labor and that's that one exchanges his time/skills for money. This includes plumbers, cabbies, engineers, doctors, lawyers, & just about everyone else out there. People who are in the laboring classes, will seldom have the type of pricing power, as someone in the ownership class.

Now, to Mecco's credit, if doctors, like let's say the military's special forces, can indicate that they have a skill level, which no other laborer could match, using some combination of hours trained in A, B, & C, and exam scores X, Y, & Z, then certainly, they can earn over $200K/yr and it wouldn't be an issue. But last I'd checked, most enlisted Navy recruits, could try out for the SEALs BUDS training, however, less than 30% make it through that basic training, before the additional year of training.

The difference between let's say the NBA and hedge fund world vs medicine is that no one has to watch any of Stern's teams and likewise, no one has to invest in my parent company, however, much of the population does need to see a doctor, from time to time.

Meccos says

@curious

Instead of complaining about these "barriers", perhaps you should rebel against the medical establishment and go see the neighborhood shaman next time you have some serious medical issue...

Actually, I think folks are already opting for medical tourism for a number of issues these days, like hip replacement, $12K in first world Singapore vs $50K in the US.

Meccos says

700k should make you fairly financially independent already

That's 2012, the first year where I'd seen money like I'd never seen before. And my plan is to retire, once I have banked $5M+, hopefully in another 4-6 years. And then, it's off to medical school.

Medical basic sciences is typically 4 semesters, or two years. And medical basic sciences lays the foundation for what a person will see in the 3rd and 4th year on the wards. Still, a lot of things are taught in a cursory way (nutrition) and in other instances, not at all (exercise physiology).

A lot of time is spent on cardiovascular disease in physiology and pathology, as well as diabetes. Which is good, however there is absolutely no emphasis on prevention. Only to say that, diabetes is treated, first and foremost with diet and lifestyle changes. However, nothing in a medical school education (basic science, clinical science, residency) prepare an individual for this type of intervention. Predominantly drug therapy. Even a fellowship in nutrition would prepare a person to do research in nutrition, but not necessarily to help an individual to improve their own nutrition.

Even a high percentage of cancers are attributable to lifestyle. But that is never mentioned. Some cancers have a strong genetic foundation (about 15%).

While medical school should teach disease and treatment, the lack of emphasis on prevention is something that needs to be addressed. As such, people like myself are in the minority, but it is a significant minority and growing with time.

The public is wising up to the fact that allopathic medicine doesn't do a good job of addressing the scourge of chronic diseases precipitated by lifestyle choices.

Medicine is still the best choice for people with acute issues or trauma.

Doctors learn their craft, but it mostly consists of regurgitation. Very little in terms of critical thinking. In many instances, the professor will say something that is wrong or contradicted by current research. Argue with that individual and see where it gets you.

That being said, other than emphasizing prevention and coming up with a standard of care, I'm not sure if there is a better way to teach the craft other than cramming, testing, regurgitating and doing it over and over again until reaching the hospital, then seeing as many cases as possible and solidifying it through a residency or fellowship.

Medicine is taught in a way that a person can retain a high percentage of a high volume of information for a very long time, which is useful for diagnosing things or building a decision tree in the mind when a Dr sees a patient with a specific group of symptoms.

Meccos says

Many non-medical people can bass the basic science curriculum. No one will disagree with you about that. Unfortunately the basic sciences are a FRACTION of what is taught in medical school

Nearly completely driven by the 'fat' in the system and layers added by insurance and corresponding administration. To a lesser extent HIPAA, OSHA, Joint Commission.

If insurance was used for catastrophic coverage only (what it was originally designed for), it would be a lot easier to return to equitable pricing in the US.

Hip replacement=lifestyle issue that doesn't have the best results in the world with regard to mobility. Ditto for knee replacement and spinal fusion surgery.

I'm feeling lazy to look it up, but Orthopedics is a cash cow procedural field which does procedures that currently have limited utility, based on current literature. Maybe it will improve in the future.

How many hip replacements are necessary in a world where diet, exercise and lifestyle are promoted. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be available, just that they should be about 75-80% less frequent.

Osteoarthritis may be inevitable, but it doesn't mean that it should necessarily result in hip replacement.

Autoimmune diseases are often triggered by the type of food one consumes. But autoimmune diseases where the joints are attacked represent a more worthwhile pursuit for orthopedic joint replacement surgeries, where knowledge on diet and lifestyle to avoid the issue are still limited.

Rin says

Meccos says

@curious

Instead of complaining about these "barriers", perhaps you should rebel against the medical establishment and go see the neighborhood shaman next time you have some serious medical issue...

Actually, I think folks are already opting for medical tourism for a number of issues these days, like hip replacement, $12K in first world Singapore vs $50K in the US.

Although I think some of the course material is harder in engineering in terms of having to use logical thinking, overall medicine is significantly harder than engineering, due to the time commitment and also the fact that you can't just 'go at your own pace' as one might be able to do in engineering (go part time).

Meccos says

Furthermore, the difficulties of becoming a physician is only partially about learning the subject matter, but also the sacrifices in time and effort which you do not seem to comprehend.... perhaps you do since you are quoted as saying the following:

MMR says

That being said, other than emphasizing prevention and coming up with a standard of care, I'm not sure if there is a better way to teach the craft other than cramming, testing, regurgitating and doing it over and over again until reaching the hospital, then seeing as many cases as possible and solidifying it through a residency or fellowship.

I'm not sure if this can be changed. Even today, those with adult onset diabetes, type II, tend to self-medicate with vitamins, on advice from friends and nutritionists. For example, thioctic acid (R-lipoic acid), cheap & widely available in many vitamin stores w/o prescription, has been shown to normalize insulin levels, while increasing glutathione production, however, from the allo perspective, only glucophage (metformin) is prescribed to control blood sugar levels via hepatic manipulation.

My relatives who are doctors (all 30 of them) do not know even this simple fact. Only one ever mentioned it, and couldn't tell the difference between R-lipoic acid and alpha lipoic acid. The difference is that the R enantiomer is more active while standard alpha lipoic acid contains both R and S enantiomer which is useless.

Also fenugreek works to normalize insulin levels

Also bitter melon or bitter gourd has a profound effect on insulin levels. This is commonly found in Indian grocery stores; also Chinese stores consistently carry it along with the Chinese bitter melon which is similar, but with a smooth surface.

Cinnamon is also useful in the treatment of diabetes

Grape seed extract is also useful in the treatment of diabetes

vitamin C is also useful in normalizing slightly elevated blood sugar

Metformin is probably the safest drug, as you stated, limits hepatic conversion of amino acids to glucose (gluconeogenesis). It does have the side effect of lactic acidosis.

All this is good but it is not a substitute for actually dropping body fat through macronutrient manipulation, resistance training + high intensity interval training or cardio. Of course, most people are lazy +brainwashed to believe that a pill will solve their problems.

People with type II diabetes don't consistently exercise, that's for sure. If they did, they probably wouldn't get type II in the first place, even with a purported strong genetic predisposition (that's what they claim in the books anyway).

That is where personal trainers are required. How many doctors at the primary care level have personal trainers that they can refer people to? In my family of 30 doctors, the answer is zero. Only other drs in their referral networks.

Changing attitude towards food is also something that most obese people, not just diabetics.

For those who don't exercise, ketogenic diet is probably the way to go, but adherence is an issue. Most drugs outside of metformin have significant side effects.

For those who do resistance training + cardio, a cyclic ketogenic diet might be better as weight training with glycogen depletion is an uphill battle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_ketogenic_diet

In many cases, drugs buy a little bit of time before the patients renal function declines to the point where they have to be put onto dialysis. It's a known fact that over 80% of people on dialysis due to end stage renal disease are also diabetic (usually type II). Reason: no money in prevention

Are patients going to follow doctors who tell them to lose weight without telling them how? Furthermore, are patients going to exercise when their doctor doesn't exercise themselves or have anyone in their referral network who is an exercise specialist.

On the average, patients relying on insurance to pay and doctors relying on insurance to get paid will never solve this issue.

Medicine was once a calling, then a profession; now, it's all about business. While the majority want the easy way out, there is a business opportunity for those individuals who want to learn and put in the work with money out of their pocket. That's my target market

Rin says

or example, thioctic acid (R-lipoic acid), cheap & widely available in many vitamin stores w/o prescription, has been shown to normalize insulin levels, while increasing glutathione production,

Also, many diabetics are deficient in B complex vitamins, C, D and even K, which I just realized.

This is just a cross sectional study, but vitamin K, especially K2 does have a lot of emerging science behind it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23034962

Alzheimer's Disease might very well be "type III diabetes" as it is characterized by brain insulin resistance. News to me but I know that AD and type II DM share one thing in common: amyloid deposits (AD in brain and type II DM in pancreas).

http://www.rhodeislandhospital.org/wtn/Page.asp?PageID=WTN000249

MMR says

My relatives who are doctors (all 30 of them) do not know even this simple fact. Only one ever mentioned it, and couldn't tell the difference between R-lipoic acid and alpha lipoic acid. The difference is that the R enantiomer is more active while standard alpha lipoic acid contains both R and S enantiomer which is useless.

One other point on thiotic acid, the L enantiomer is actually unnatural & cytotoxic, in vivo, in higher dosages. The R, however, is the opposite, has even been indicated to increase lifespan in rodent studies, which perhaps, may have something to do with the glutathione antioxidant support.

My mother had developed adult onset diabetes and today, both as a result of calorie restriction post-6PM and taking R-LA, she's doing a lot better. None of her internal medicine doctors have given her the aforementioned course of actions. Instead, it was simple a regimen of metaformin prescriptions. She's spread the word, among her friends, and now, many of them have their conditions under control w/o the assistance of a consulting physician.

Do obese and 'skinny-fat' IM doctors who do not engage in consistently tell their patients to do resistance training and to avoid obvious food choices (soda).

Most times after a blood test revealing high blood sugar, the average primary care doc will say "we have to keep an eye". The RESPONSIBLE doctor, treats a prediabetic like they've already got diabetes by strongly promoting diet and exercise. Alas, so few of those in the primary care industry.

Which doctors even know about vitamins and nutritional supplements? How much are they taught about it in biochemistry? Jack and Jack

MMR says

Which doctors even know about vitamins and nutritional supplements? How much are they taught about it in biochemistry? Jack and Jack

I think the training here involves something other than just making the rounds at a hospital.

For instance, growth hormone secretion is countered by insulin spikes. Thus, for a person to gain the best GH secretion in his sleep, he needs to be a least 3+ hours removed from his prior meal. This is more important than worrying about a sugary donut or waffle, for breakfast. Thus, my mother has now, made breakfast/lunch her largest meal of the day. For dinner, it's basically a half portion of meat and vegetables. She also takes an R-LA pill, with each and every meal. End result, she wakes up refreshed, each and every day & has her diabetes under control.

Homeboy says

A typical wage earner could work for 30 years and still in their entire life, not make anywhere close to what an NBA player makes in a single year.

Keyword here is "typical". How many millions WANT be in the NBA and never make it? It doesn't always look like it, but these are the very best of the very best of the very best. They work from childhood, really, uncompensated and achieve greatness.

Think of it as deferred compensation, and of how many entertain us for next to nothing or nothing.

CL says

Homeboy says

A typical wage earner could work for 30 years and still in their entire life, not make anywhere close to what an NBA player makes in a single year.

Keyword here is "typical". How many millions WANT be in the NBA and never make it? It doesn't always look like it, but these are the very best of the very best of the very best. They work from childhood, really, uncompensated and achieve greatness.

Think of it as deferred compensation, and of how many entertain us for next to nothing or nothing.

I think the way to break this down is this ...

NBA = immediate millionaire to multimillionaire status
European/International leagues = quarter of million to millionaire status
All other semi-prof B-ball clubs = secretarial to junior engineering salaries

Thus, if you exclude the NBA, a.k.a the Monied David Stern Club, 90% of basketball players get paid like every other group of performing artists out there. This is not too different from being a member of an elite rock group (i.e. Metallica, U2, Beatles, Aerosmith) vs playing in your local town's music club, which pays some $100-$200 per gig, which is why music is generally considered a hobby by most persons out there.

Therefore, how much an NBA player gets paid is not relevant to the argument of whether or not they get paid too much. It's Stern's entertainment company and if one doesn't like it, then go watch one's local YMCA leagues duke it out.

Likewise, let's boycott U2 shows and album/mp3 releases, shrink their fan & advertising base, since Bono, Edge, and Clayton don't deserve to be millionaires over a guy who plays out in his hometown's school gymnasium. I mean that's the essence of homeboy's argument.

That's wonderful, I wish I had such compliance with my own mother. Still I managed to get her to reduce her metformin by 50% and she has been exercising with some reduction of body fat, but not enough.

I keep R-Lipoic Acid in the house but she doesn't take it. I managed to get her to take fish oil and vitamin D though.

But since the Doctor gave it to her, she is reluctant to try non-drug therapies which you and I know work with a high rate of efficacy in mild cases.

Absolutely right on the growth hormone

Rin says

She also takes an R-LA pill, with each and every meal. End result, she wakes up refreshed, each and every day & has her diabetes under control.

chanakya4773 says

You tell the firefighter who has to dive in to FIRE to save your precious little life when your house blows up in fire. Tell him why you need to get paid many times more than him because you are going to do a run of the mill surgery in which you personally have zero risk and the rate of success is just another statics.

I think his argument will go something like this ... did that guy gets A's in biology, a high MCAT, and get accepted to an extremely prestigious program plus residency, and thus, gave up his weekends, nights, etc, just to have the privilege of slicing open a person and having the power of God over them, while hiding behind the blanket coverage of malpractice insurance, along with the *code of silence* among peer surgeons?

You see, that's the essence of how premeds and MDs see themselves. I'd worked with plenty of these personality types during undergrad research projects. They are worthy of praise, money, and prestige because their academic accolades awarded 'em with it. Everyone else, those HS "dropout quality" firemen, the NASA engineers who play with circuit boards, the Navy SEALS guy (who works for only a military pension) are mediocre, not dedicated, & not worthy of high pay and prestige.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that if I'd publicly stated, in a live meeting of people, that I'd helped manage my mom's Type 2 diabetes w/o a consulting physician recommending R-LA, that he'd have me charged for practicing medicine w/o a license despite the fact that my mother's IM physicians did little for her.

Definitely! But that doesn't necessarily make it less relevant. There is good research for many dietary supplements, but much of it doesn't reach a doctors consciousness because it isn't published in JAMA, NEJM or Annals of Internal Medicine, for example. For a number of reasons, good research can't make it into the top journals, mostly due to political issues.

The genius author of Jurassic Park, Michael Crichton, MD said it best: I regard consensus science as an extremely pernicious development that ought to be stopped cold in its tracks. Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled.

The journals are perpetrators of "consensus science". Most medical students fall for it hook, line and sinker.

Although, on an anecdotal level, none of the drs in my family are convinced enough of the benefit of dietary supplements to actually keep any in their home, other than something along the lines of centrum.

It seems that the vast majority strongly believe in pharmaceutical therapies designed to be taken for a lifetime.

Rin says

I think the training here involves something other than just making the rounds at a hospital.

Meccos says

Stop complaining and go become a doctor yourself.... furthermore dont make stupid requests like the quote above... it only hurts your argument

Actually Meccos, it looks like that I'm gaining more adherents over time than you. Just read all the responses above. You thought that you could make me look sophomoric but it appears that that moniker is slowly fitting you rather well with your pomposity. Yes, I'm not proud of working for a hedge fund but you know what ... it'll make me free/independent and then, I can do what I want with my life w/o needing to justify the shortcomings of my profession to others.

Yes, when (not if) I become a doctor, I will never get online and tell ppl that doctors are a gem of society. Instead, I'll say that unlike some (whose names I won't mention), I've done the best that I could. And if that basically turns me into an adjunct physical therapist or nutritionist then so be it. I'm sure I could survive on my earnings from the HF work for some time.

CL says

Keyword here is "typical". How many millions WANT be in the NBA and never make it? It doesn't always look like it, but these are the very best of the very best of the very best. They work from childhood, really, uncompensated and achieve greatness.

Think of it as deferred compensation, and of how many entertain us for next to nothing or nothing.

There seems to be an epidemic of missing the point in this thread. Shall we review?

I did not ever say NBA players should not be paid what they are paid. I did not say it isn't justified. I did not say it should be less.

I said, complaining about what doctors make is silly when you consider that they save lives, and other people make 30 times more for playing with a ball.

You seem to enjoy arguing strawmen just for argument's sake.

Just to clarify... With respect to doctors, what is your definition of "overpaid?" (Precisely, what is the dollar amount?)

Rin says

Likewise, let's boycott U2 shows and album/mp3 releases, shrink their fan & advertising base, since Bono, Edge, and Clayton don't deserve to be millionaires over a guy who plays out in his hometown's school gymnasium. I mean that's the essence of homeboy's argument.

What's with all the strawmen?

I never said anyone doesn't deserve their salary.

YOU said doctors don't deserve their salary.

Actually, you just refuted your OWN argument. LOL.

Homeboy says

what doctors make is silly when you consider that they save lives, and other people make 30 times more for playing with a ball.

Read chanakya4773's comments on the firemen, in terms of saving lives and the payscale.

As for professional sports, I'll bring up the U2 analogy ... is it not right for a private entertainment enterprise, to pay out their stakeholders, in proportion to what that business brings in, in terms of ticket sales and advertisement money? You are always free to not support U2.

On the other hand, if I publicly tell anyone, in a conference-like setting, that I'd managed by mom's diabetic condition with a mere off the shelf vitamin, most likely, I'd be charged with practicing medicine w/o a license and hence, the information stays within the circle of friends and family.

Situations like that made me pursue medicine instead of listening to crap perpetuated by people who are full of themselves (MD degree holding relatives working in the field) while criticizing me for being right and never having the integrity to research one iota of assertions I ever made based on researching literature and personal experimentation.

Even though I'm full of facts, not one of them has ever "seen the value" or implemented a single one of my suggestions.

My moms side of the family, on the other hand, while significantly less educated, has a number of members who I've successfully managed to lead by example.

My experience is that you can't teach drs anything because they already know it all.

As a former personal trainer, I learned that the two most impossible people to sell personal training packages to were: Doctors and Accountants. Accountants need to really know objectively that they are getting their money's worth and it is nearly impossible to guarantee success without knowing a person's commitment level. Doctors, as stated earlier, because they think they know it all.

In medical school, all I've come to realize is that you learn a lot about pathology and pathophysiology. This is in contrast to normal physiology and improving upon baseline normal physiological function, which is what exercise has been proven time and again to do (both resistance and HIIT or cardio).

Most doctors also don't know the difference between consensus and real science but claim that they practice 'evidence based medicine'.

As for the joe-schmoe IM's: when 40% of the patients are obese you'd think the average internist would have answers for them, regardless of their training. It turns out, however they do not.

One more point. A lot of people are lazy to buy efficacious supplements because their insurance won't pay for them. I made a comment about Aetna having a crappy flex spending account. This is the main reason why. Only up to 2000 dollars a year tax free and the supplements have to be prescribed by the doctor. Even with the doctors (who don't take insurance) who are knowledgeable about supplements, they prescribe supplements that they sell and filling out the paperwork is a pain in the ass.

That genius Michael Crichton said: patients too often shunned responsibility for their own health, relying on doctors as miracle workers rather than advisors.

This is the main reason why most of the threads pertaining to insurance are slightly misguided. It begs the question: What are most of the people starting threads about insurance actually doing on a consistent basis to ensure good health into old age?

The main difference between doctors who take insurance vs those who don't at the primary care level: one is indifferent to your lifestyle other than paying lip service and the other demands 'skin in the game'

Rin says

In fact, I'm pretty sure that if I'd publicly stated, in a live meeting of people, that I'd helped manage my mom's Type 2 diabetes w/o a consulting physician recommending R-LA, that he'd have me charged for practicing medicine w/o a license despite the fact that my mother's IM physicians did little for her.

turtledove says

Just to clarify... With respect to doctors, what is your definition of "overpaid?" (Precisely, what is the dollar amount?)

Shhh.... don't confuse them by asking for actual facts. It makes them angry.

Rin says

Read chanakya4773's comments on the firemen, in terms of saving lives and the payscale.

Oh, I see. You acknowledge the validity of the argument when it's used by someone you agree with, but claim it's an invalid argument when I use it. Nice....

Homeboy, are you a moron? You don't have to support U2. You can support your local band.

I can't tell anyone to take R-LA for type 2 diabetes w/o being charged for practicing medicine w/o a license. Can't you see the difference?

Please, point out the strawman above.

Homeboy says

Rin says

Read chanakya4773's comments on the firemen, in terms of saving lives and the payscale.

Oh, I see. You acknowledge the validity of the argument when it's used by someone you agree with, but claim it's an invalid argument when I use it. Nice....

OK, so how many firemen do you know, who earn from $200K to $300K? Yes, I'm now using your argument concerning payscale.

chanakya4773 says

Very easy to fix it..lets create a third party which will put all these requirements for firefighters given the nature of their work.

1) 10 years over-training with 400K per year tuition ( only one school will be allowed in the whole country to train them to create "high quality" firefighters. only 100 seats will be available.)

2) Need to be 6 feet tall or more

3) should be able to jump 6 feet or more

4) Is insensitive to heat.

Now , when you are stuck in a fire in your house, the firefighter will demand 1 million dollars to save you because he had to do 1) 2) 3) and 4) and also because he is "SAVING LIVES"

you will not have any choice but to pay the million dollars.

Excellent, now you see where I'm coming from.

Rin says

Homeboy, are you a moron? You don't have to support U2. You can support your local band.

I can't tell anyone to take R-LA for type 2 diabetes w/o being charged for practicing medicine w/o a license. Can't you see the difference?

Please, point out the strawman above.

It's ALL strawman.

What are you, a fucking troll? Still going with the strawman, but you added ad hominem and misdirection for the trifecta!