patrick.net

Gang violence claims 6-month-old baby even as homicides fall in Chicago

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/12/17284852-gang-violence-claims-6-month-old-baby-even-as-homicides-fall-in-chicago?lite

Even in a city with more than 500 homicides a year, it's a crime that shocks the senses: a 6-month-old Chicago girl fatally shot five times while having her diaper changed in the family van.

The infant died Tuesday morning after several surgeries to repair injuries from five bullets that tore through her body the previous afternoon, family spokesman Pastor Corey Brooks said.

Gang violence has fueled the bloodshed in Chicago, which ended 2012 with 506 homicides on the books even as overall crime took a downturn.

It was a gang turf war that led to another notorious slaying, the shooting of 15-year-old high-school majorette Hadiya Pendleton just days after she performed during President Obama's inauguration weekend.

The circumstances of Pendleton's death -- an honor student marked for death after she unwittingly set foot on gang territory -- made her a face of the national gun-control debate and sparked a local crime crackdown.

Guns dont kill people, gangs kill people.. Its about time we get rid of the gangsters...

Dan8267 says

Guns don't kill people. Four-year-olds do.

This makes me want to hurl.

Poor kid, he probably thought it was a toy. He'll be scarred for life.

I only glance at these stories because reading too much will make me want to blow off work and hug my kids all day.

Vicente says

I only glance at these stories because reading too much will make me want to blow off work and hug my kids all day.

There have been studies showing that households without guns are safer for children as the risk of children getting their hands on the guns are far greater than the risk of an armed intruder. However, I don't think that most gun lovers consider this fact.

Dan8267 says

Vicente says

I only glance at these stories because reading too much will make me want to blow off work and hug my kids all day.

There have been studies showing that households without guns are safer for children as the risk of children getting their hands on the guns are far greater than the risk of an armed intruder. However, I don't think that most gun lovers consider this fact.

Yes, and when one looks at the data from those studies the households where children are having gun accidents are also households where: police have visited for domestic issues, drugs/alcohol abuse, criminal activity, etc. When looking at "normal" households with responsible adults the incidents children having gun accidents is negligible.

We have discussed this before here:

leo707 says

Even with that said I think that any home with gun(s)+kids should be required to have any and all guns locked at all times when there is not an adult directly supervising. Because of my kids I do not currently keep any guns loaded and unlocked...

I think that every parent--during all the other giving birth/hospital discharge stuff--should be made plainly aware of the dangers of unlocked guns. In the piles of booklets and pamphlets there was all kinds of advice on child proofing, etc. I don't recall a single mention of guns, or anyone at the hospital mentioning guns. Our pediatrician did ask if when had guns and the conversation was about 5 seconds:

Pediatrician: "Do you have guns in the house?"

Us: "Yes."

Pediatrician: "Are they locked?"

Us: "Yes."

Pediatrician: "OK."

And that was all.

leo707 says

When looking at "normal" households with responsible adults the incidents children having gun accidents is negligible.

I don't have data either way on that, but I did find the following article to be convincing.

http://www.minnpost.com/second-opinion/2012/12/health-risk-having-gun-home

People are lousy at rationally and objectively evaluating risk. As emotion-driven machines, humans simply make all kinds of false assumptions when evaluating real world risk, especially in the modern age.

Dan8267 says

I don't have data either way on that, but I did find the following article to be convincing.

http://www.minnpost.com/second-opinion/2012/12/health-risk-having-gun-home

Thanks, when I have time later I will look more into it.

My quick look seems to confirm that the American Academy of Pediatrics seems to be sourcing study from the CDC on the topic. The original "you are 46 times more likely to kill yourself with a gun in your house than defend yourself" was a CDC study, and everything I have ever been able to read on it has indicated that they operate from the emotion-driven "guns are bad" position.

Also, this statement, "Having a gun in your home significantly increases your risk of death — and that of your spouse and children. And it doesn’t matter how the guns are stored or what type or how many guns you own." belies logic. How is it possible that someone who has a 12 gauge in a safe, with the ammo locked separately has the same chance their child is killed by the gun as a home with a dozen loaded handguns stashed around the house: between couch cushion, taped under the dining room table, bedside stand drawers, etc. That study I would be interested in tracking down.

leo707 says

And it doesn’t matter how the guns are stored or what type or how many guns you own." belies logic. How is it possible that someone who has a 12 gauge in a safe, with the ammo locked separately has the same chance their child is killed by the gun as a home with a dozen loaded handguns stashed around the house

I don't think that sentence means that. I think the author is saying, regardless of how carefully guns are stored, "having a gun in your home significantly increases your risk of death — and that of your spouse and children". Obviously, responsible management of the firearms decreases the chances of the child getting the gun, but a determined and curious 5-year-old boy is still going to try his damndest to get his grubby little fingers on that gun. The same holds true for daddy's porn and a thirteen-year-old boy. No matter how well daddy thinks he's hidden it. (Well, at least pre-Internet that was true.)

Dan8267 says

I don't think that sentence means that. I think the author is saying, regardless of how carefully guns are stored, "having a gun in your home significantly increases your risk of death — and that of your spouse and children".

Ah, yeah. OK.

Dan8267 says

Obviously, responsible management of the firearms decreases the chances of the child getting the gun, but a determined and curious 5-year-old boy is still going to try his damndest to get his grubby little fingers on that gun.

Even a highly motivated adult would have great difficulty getting to a gun in a safe. There only chance at it is if it is in transition, and in that case it should be in sight of an adult. Currently my guns rarely come out (they have been locked away for over a year now) and if they did they would be unloaded and within my sight at all times. I would guess the probability of one of my kids getting shot is somewhere bellow the chance that they get killed by being hit in the chest with a ball while playing little league.

That is not so say that I don't worry about either. I do worry about my kids and guns. That is why I am so paranoid about keeping them locked and/or watched. I would also not hesitate to bar my kids from playing at a house that kept unlocked guns.

I would be willing to bet that the .22 rifle the 4 year-old got a hold of was loaded, unlocked sitting in the back of a closet right at 4 year-old height.

leo707 says

Even a highly motivated adult would have great difficulty getting to a gun in a safe

Perhaps, but if I were your 13-year-old son and I thought there was porn in that safe, I think I would succeed in breaking into it. Again, they didn't have the Internet back when I was 13 and the Swimsuit Issue only comes out once a year.

The 13-year-old version of me could probably bang the safe open with his underutilized boners. Never underestimate the tenacity and free time of kids.

Dan8267 says

There have been studies showing that households without guns are safer for children as the risk of children getting their hands on the guns are far greater than the risk of an armed intruder. However, I don't think that most gun lovers consider this fact.

how do you explain when such events dont happen in say Switzerland where homeowners who serve in a militia have full auto assault weapons and some semi-automatic who have served in the past. based on your logic ... deaths should be 10x more than USA ?

thomaswong.1986 says

how do you explain when such events dont happen in say Switzerland where homeowners who serve in a militia have full auto assault weapons and some semi-automatic who have served in the past. based on your logic ... deaths should be 10x more than USA ?

Ah but they do happen:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2256412/Swiss-village-shooting-Former-mental-health-patient-killed-3-women-questioned-Alps-massacre.html

IDDQD says

Dan8267 says

Obviously, responsible management of the firearms decreases the chances of the child getting the gun, but a determined and curious 5-year-old boy is still going to try his damndest to get his grubby little fingers on that gun.

Obviously, this statement is a ridiculous exaggeration.

up to the point you get your hid tanned ! or you get the ruler over their grubby little fingers.. disciple !

Vicente says

Ah but they do happen:

10x more ? oh i do expect crazy mass killings in any nation be they gun friendly or not ?

so list 10x more incidents ...

thomaswong.1986 says

10x more ?

Ah wait, I thought you said "don't happen". Now we are comparing sizes because they do. I have a friend who is Swiss, and yet I know very little about their society or their laws. You apparently know everything. Are you Swiss?

Vicente says

Ah wait, I thought you said "don't happen". Now we are comparing sizes because they do. I have a friend who is Swiss, and yet I know very little about their society or their laws. You apparently know everything. Are you Swiss?

no.. we dont see gang shot out daily basis in Switzerland as if it was chicago or oakland.. even as many have full auto assault military weapons including full auto side arms..

No they dont happen given that many have guns!

Does your friend from Switzerland have many stories of kids killing themselves ?

very very unlikely !!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

In some 2001 statistics, it is noted that there are about 420,000 assault rifles (fully automatic, or "selective fire") stored at private homes, mostly SIG SG 550 models. Additionally, there are some 320,000 semi-auto rifles and military pistols exempted from military service in private possession, all selective-fire weapons having been converted to semi-automatic operation only. In addition, there are several hundred thousand other semi-automatic small arms classified as carbines. The total number of firearms in private homes is estimated minimally at 1.2 million to 3 million.[7][broken citation]

In 2005 over 10% of households contained handguns, compared to 18% of U.S. households that contained handguns. In 2005 almost 29% of households in Switzerland contained firearms of some kind, compared to almost 43% in the USA.[8]

IDDQD says

Yeah, humans are imperfect at keeping their kids safe, saving for the retirement, making right health decisions and so on and so forth. What's the solution?

Listening to rational, objective, studies done without a political agenda.

thomaswong.1986 says

how do you explain when such events dont happen in say Switzerland where homeowners who serve in a militia have full auto assault weapons and some semi-automatic who have served in the past. based on your logic ... deaths should be 10x more than USA ?

Switzerland has an entirely different culture relating to guns. If you look at my past postings, you'll find me praising that culture and wishing that America would adopt it. I'd love for us to be more like Switzerland in this respect.

Dan8267 says

IDDQD says

Yeah, humans are imperfect at keeping their kids safe, saving for the retirement, making right health decisions and so on and so forth. What's the solution?

Listening to rational, objective, studies done without a political agenda.

Unfortunately objective studies without political agenda (either for or against) are difficult to track down where guns are concerned.

I think that one of our big difficulties is actually identifying the problem that requires solving. Piles of studies saying guns=good don't mean that guns are the cure to all our ills, and likewise studies saying guns=bad don't mean that banning guns will solve our issues with violence. It is too bad that we can not accurately identify what our end goal is and from there evaluate the evidence objectively and have reasonable gun restriction (yes, we need to restrict something as dangerous as guns) that allows low-risk individuals access to guns, but minimizes access for dangerous people.

I would love to see a national no-gun-buy list similar to the no-fly list that bars individuals from firearm purchase. I would love to see people with children around who can not seem to lock their guns up go on that list.

I love guns. I don't love stupid people owning them. I also don't like stupid people having kids or driving cars but that isn't ending any time soon.
Really, the problem is stupid people.

IDDQD says

Bwahaha. You won't be able to open even el-cheapo Bighorn gun safe from Costco with all the tools regular guy has in his garage. Not even 13 y.o. version of yourself in pursuit of porn.

While I must admit not much could get between a 13 year-old and porn, even relatively cheap safes are not easy to crack.

Over a decade ago a fellow I know (in his late 20s at the time) was suicidal, had access to power-tools (grinders, drills, etc.), and tried for several hours to get into his parents gun safe. The safe was all beat to shit, but no guns were extracted.

Moderate Infidel says

I love guns. I don't love stupid people owning them. I also don't like stupid people having kids or driving cars but that isn't ending any time soon.

Really, the problem is stupid people.

If someone shows themselves to be horribly irresponsible (stupid) I think it is easier to have their car and children taken away than it is to have their guns confiscated.

I'm talking about people who are already dead at that point so there is no penalty other than death. I'm all for laws that take guns, cars and children away from stupid people.

leo707 says

While I must admit not much could get between a 13 year-old and porn, even relatively cheap safes are not easy to crack.

When I was 13, I cracked the copy protection off of games with a hex editor, figured out how to feel out the combination of school locker locks, and trick the analog cable boxes in hotel rooms to give free porn. I doubt a safe would keep me from porn at that age.

Hmmm, a small web cam hidden in a bookshelf and pointed to the safe. Daddy opens the safe, while I record the combination. Kids figure things out. Well, maybe not the dumb ones. But if your kid is an engineer, he'll find a way of getting the combination or cracking the safe.

Dan8267 says

Switzerland has an entirely different culture relating to guns. If you look at my past postings, you'll find me praising that culture and wishing that America would adopt it. I'd love for us to be more like Switzerland in this respect.

They dont have gang bangers running around the city protecting their drug turf.

Had they, the armed Swiss citizens would have pistol whipped them into a coma!

And rightly fully so !

So why not arm the citizens to protect their neighborhoods as the Swiss are allowed. The problems in Chicago, Oakland and many other cities would disappear quickly and never to return.

But you would call it racism and some other nonsense.

In the USA armed people are called right wing fanatics, uncultured white trash, in Switzerland they are called patriotic ...

"Unlike some other heavily armed nations, Switzerland’s gun ownership is deeply rooted in a sense of patriotic duty and national identity. Weapons are kept at home because of the long-held belief that enemies could invade tiny Switzerland quickly, so every soldier had to be able to fight his way to his regiment’s assembly point. (Switzerland was at risk of being invaded by Germany during World War II but was spared, historians say, because every Swiss man was armed and trained to shoot.)

Read more: http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-culture-that-works/#ixzz2Qg1hoHpL

In the USA use, training and safety of fire arms by the NRA is heavily criticized ... in Switzerland its common.

"One of the reasons the crime rate in Switzerland is low despite the prevalence of weapons — and also why the Swiss mentality can’t be transposed to the current American reality — is the culture of responsibility and safety that is anchored in society and passed from generation to generation. Kids as young as 12 belong to gun groups in their local communities, where they learn sharpshooting. The Swiss Shooting Sports Association runs about 3,000 clubs and has 150,000 members, including a youth section. Many members keep their guns and ammunition at home, while others choose to leave them at the club. And yet, despite such easy access to pistols and rifles, “no members have ever used their guns for criminal purposes,” says Max Flueckiger, the association’s spokesperson."

Read more: http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-culture-that-works/#ixzz2Qg2u97Ue

thomaswong.1986 says

They dont have gang bangers running around the city protecting their drug turf.

Because they don't have a war on drugs.

Hell, ever person is allowed to grow four marijuana plants at home. You let people in Oakland do that and drug trafficking will plummet.

thomaswong.1986 says

In the USA armed people are called right wing fanatics, uncultured white trash, in Switzerland they are called patriotic ...

The most vocal gun advocates and users in America tend to be

Idiots

Grown men who still have fantasies about being a cowboy

Urban gangsters

In Switzerland, the typical gun owner
- Considers a gun to be a tool, not a toy. It's not for fun.
- Does not use guns to appear cool or macho.
- At about age 20, every Swiss male goes through 118 consecutive days of recruit training in the Rekrutenschule whereas in America, gun advocates cry foul for requiring a mere 8-hour handgun safety course.
- From age 21 to 32, the Swiss devote three weeks a year to continued training.
- An applicant for a firearm license in Switzerland must pass background checks which consider mental, criminal and domestic violence records.
- In Switzerland gun owners must re-apply and re-qualify for their firearm licence every 5 years.
- The buyer of a firearm in a private sale in Switzerland is obliged to pass official background checks before taking possession even in private gun sales.
- In Switzerland, carrying a concealed firearm in a public place is allowed only with proof of genuine need and tangible danger, following mental health, criminal record and good character background checks, and after passing a police examination in firearm law and handgun safety.

The NRA opposes pretty much all the points above as do the politicians they buy.

Dan8267 says

The most vocal gun advocates and users in America tend to be

only if you believe in Hollywood hype or jackass nonsense from the East Coast Liberals.

If we were to believe all the Swiss policies were enacted.. the Jack ass liberal class, which
you are a member of would still exclude many of the weapons allowed in Switzerland.

Dan8267 says

- In Switzerland, carrying a concealed firearm in a public place is allowed only with proof of genuine need and tangible danger, following mental health, criminal record and good character background checks, and after passing a police examination in firearm law and handgun safety.

everyone (Citizen) goes through weapons training because every citizen goes through compulsory military service at age 18. public carry does not include being in danger.. thats all nonsense.

Dan8267 says

Because they don't have a war on drugs.

Hell, ever person is allowed to grow four marijuana plants at home. You let people in Oakland do that and drug trafficking will plummet.

yet you dont speak of millions in Cocaine and Heroin being trafficking in Oakland.

thomaswong.1986 says

yet you dont speak of millions in Cocaine and Heroin being trafficking in Oakland.

Do you want me to?

Clearly, pot is the cash crop for the private prison industry. It's criminalization results in tens of millions of Americans being unable to get a descent job and escape poverty. Poverty is the number one cause of violent crime. Therefore, the criminalization of pot causes violent crime, directly or indirectly.

But as for cocaine and heroin, why should their use be illegal either? I thought you conservatives didn't want a nanny state telling you what you can eat, drink, smoke, and do with your own body? We need to remove all this excessive regulation of the drug industry and let the free market decide what is right. Isn't that the Republican mantra?

Of course, if you get rid of all this fucking poverty caused by the greedy hording of wealth by the capital class, you wouldn't have any drug use. I've never taken any drugs including pot and nicotine. Why? Because I have other things in my life. Get rid of poverty and you'll see drug usage go down.

Dan8267 says

It's criminalization results in tens of millions of Americans being unable to get a descent job and escape poverty. Poverty is the number one cause of violent crime. Therefore, the criminalization of pot causes violent crime, directly or indirectly.

Its a choice.. it was back decades ago and is today. Drugs is why you have crime, narc trafficking and deaths. Of course you justify it like a common criminal of course unwilling to allow the common citizen to protect themselves and their family from the hoodlums shooting everyone in their neighborhoods. Destroy the crime and business will flourish.

FWIW, i sure like to see Afghanistan and Bolvia napalmed to a crisp along with who ever was linked to the drug production and trade. the same goes with pot.. spray paraquat across north california and mexico... sobriety.. its a beautiful thing.

You'll pry my pipe from my cold dead hands!

We should also spray paraquat on all grain fields to stop harvesting it for alcohol, which ruins way more lives than marijuana ever could.

Spray paraquat on churches too. Religion is the worst drug there is.

Dan8267 says

People are lousy at rationally and objectively evaluating risk. As emotion-driven machines, humans simply make all kinds of false assumptions when evaluating real world risk, especially in the modern age.

I'm terrible at evaluating risk for myself and my loved ones.
If only some PAC money corrupted, special interest influenced, Lawmakers would do it for me.