patrick.net

tatupu70 says

But I can assure you that lots of companies hire new grads. Lots have co-op programs or intern programs.

But how many of these coveted entry level positions exist compared with number of new graduates entering the workplace every year?

In my recent experience even these entry level jobs are being filled with mid career workers. Former co-workers of mine have only been able to find positions as research assistants despite holding advanced degrees and years of relevant industry experience.

tatupu70 says

All I can comment on this one is that, IMO, academic record does not correlate very well with job performance as an engineer. Not saying this relates to you at all, but lots of very smart engineers are practically unemployable because their people skills are non-existent. As a process engineer in a plant you must interact with both management and operators...

Unemployable as a process engineer perhaps but such non-social skills are invaluable when tethered to a cubicle as many engineers are.

tatupu70 says

I'd much rather find someone well-rounded and intelligent and teach them the process, as opposed to someone who only has a very narrow knowledge base. Even if that base is similar to what we do. Someone from outside can offer new ideas and new thinking.

That's you, how about HR who does the candidate screening?

Renter, a process engineer in SJ? - those kindza jobs left these parts nearly as long ago as factory food processing.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Renter, a process engineer in SJ? - those kindza jobs left these parts nearly as long ago as factory food processing.

Me? No. Just have had to deal with several crapped out gate valves around the house. Replaced them with ball valves and never looked back.

tatupu70 says

I'd much rather find someone well-rounded and intelligent and teach them the process, as opposed to someone who only has a very narrow knowledge base. Even if that base is similar to what we do. Someone from outside can offer new ideas and new thinking.

This is why I'd brought up the Navy Nukes. Those are ppl you're looking for... highly flexible, able to deal with pressure situations, well versed in all safety aspects of dangerous processes (Admiral Rickover made sure of that), & generally bright across the board, and in particular, hands-on.

Unfortunately, the way sectors work is that ppl fall into silos and then, can't re-orientate towards an alternate one without some additional experiences. Part of this is because many jobs have lengthy pilot plant runs and then, the work is about more calibrations, data collections, ramping, and so forth. That's right there, anywhere from a 55 to 75 hour work week, depending on the deadlines from execs.

In terms of starting a brand new chemical plant (or power station), it requires a level of conscientious in terms of not only field experience with unit operation technologies but also, a nose for safety considerations and the ability to bring a disciplined approach to making ad hoc decisions, in addition to the ones already planned in advance. A regular person with a bit of CO-OP background and a few years, running a series of columns, would probably not suffice.

New Renter says

That's you, how about HR who does the candidate screening?

They screen for whatever I tell them to...

Rin says

Unfortunately, the way sectors work is that ppl fall into silos and then, can't re-orientate towards an alternate one without some additional experiences. Part of this is because many jobs have lengthy pilot plant runs and then, the work is about more calibrations, data collections, ramping, and so forth. That's right there, anywhere from a 55 to 75 hour work week, depending on the deadlines from execs.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Of course you have projects that may be specific and detailed, but those projects don't last forever. You do a project for 6 mos., 1 year, 2 years, whatever, then you move to the next one. Or you move to the next job with a new company. Despite what you think, every chemE that I know has moved jobs at least 3-4 times in the first 15 years--usually across different fields.

Rin says

In terms of starting a brand new chemical plant (or power station), it requires a level of conscientious in terms of not only field experience with unit operation technologies but also, a nose for safety considerations and the ability to bring a disciplined approach to making ad hoc decisions, in addition to the ones already planned in advance. A regular person with a bit of CO-OP background and a few years, running a series of columns, would probably not suffice.

Like I said earlier, there are certainly jobs that require 15 yrs. experience and those are not jobs that a fresh grad will be getting. But there are also a great deal of lower level engineering jobs that fresh grads can get. And a new chemical plant will have some of each.

tatupu70 says

New Renter says

That's you, how about HR who does the candidate screening?

They screen for whatever I tell them to...

Do they understand the difference between a ball and butterfly valve?

New Renter says

Do they understand the difference between a ball and butterfly valve?

lol--I doubt it. But that's not HR's job to find out. That's for me to find out during the interview process. Their job is to cull the resumes of candidates that are obviously under or over qualified.

tatupu70 says

lol--I doubt it. But that's not HR's job to find out. That's for me to find out during the interview process. Their job is to cull the resumes of candidates that are obviously under or over qualified.

Right and therein lies the problem. You ask for someone with experience using butterfly valves. Someone's application lists an appropriate amount of experience but with gate valves. Sure its not a perfect fit but that person has experience with valves and can adapt. Even still his resume is ash canned because he didn't say "butterfly valve".

And that's assuming HR's keyword filter didn't get to the resume first.

anonymous says

While used to long hours, a decent safety background and all of the great things Rin pointed out, they often did not transition well into the civilian sector and most left after a short time

I'm curious as to why this is?

For me, the reason why I'd left "ChemE" (applied to biotech) is that I didn't feel it it was a community/brotherhood of sorts and that it was an every man for himself environment (with P.I. cell biologists at the top) which made me realize, hey, why not leave for IT or something like finance, where in fact, every man is for himself with less hypocrisy about that fact?

You see, for me to want to stay as a ChemE, I wanted to know that someone was watching my back. I think in the military, that's a part of the bonding, between ppl in a unit, esp on a nuclear submarine.

Renter, I've been an engr here for three decades. Had several jobs at different companies, in early years a part time technician while in school, in later years engineer.

I have sent hundreds of resumes and been on scores of interviews.

And every tech job I ever had, I learned about from personal contacts, including that first co-op. It's one of the reasons I stayed
in the region all these years even though the quality of life sucks here nowadays.

I didn't realize it at the time, but cultivating industry contacts all the way back to my sophomore year in college was key, though at the time I was not being strategic. Just luckily for me, it seemed like the thing to do.
The same is true for my partner, though in a completely different employment area. As a matter of fact, HR, at the behest of the hiring management, changed the job description to match the person for one of my partner's jobs. Gotta find the hiring managers independent from HR.

Rin, back in the day, I applied for that program. The Nuclear Navy told
me I wasnt up to the competition, though they encouraged me to reapply to a non-nuke program, which I was not interested in.

Nuke or not, not joining just in time for the Cold War to wind down is probably one of the best things I never did.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Gotta find the hiring managers independent from HR

cannot stress enough how important what BACAH stated. I would
add, everyday put your ego in the corner, you never know what will
happen down the road.. be the best at work.. it pays off.

New Renter says

Right and therein lies the problem. You ask for someone with experience using butterfly valves. Someone's application lists an appropriate amount of experience but with gate valves. Sure its not a perfect fit but that person has experience with valves and can adapt. Even still his resume is ash canned because he didn't say "butterfly valve".

And that's assuming HR's keyword filter didn't get to the resume first.

I'm not sure if you read my comment--at companies I've worked for HR really only worries about getting the job postings out to the various outlets for soliciting resumes. They are definitely NOT the ones that make decisions about who will get interviewed and who will not. We typically don't get enough response to where it is burdensome on me to look at every one.

At best, HR will discard folks that area obviously over or under qualified or that have changed jobs 5 times in the last 2 years. I would never instruct them to only send me candidates with specific experience because I know that would be too restrictive. Bottom line--HR does what we ask them to--they don't control the job filling process.

anonymous says

The plants we operate are designed to run with one person on nights and weekends (85MMSCFD to 120MMSCFD) and some run unattended on nights and weekends being monitored from another location. The Navy Nukes quickly grasped the basics but not the nuances of the plants in a lot of cases. For a lot of them it was similar to playing a video game and they tired of it, since these plants work best with minimal human interaction. Being alone for 12 hours also had some affect on retention. The transition from a very disciplined military culture to non-military proved the most challenging.

I like this above piece. In a way, it gives me an alternate view of why I'd left the field. In my sector, biopharma, is always seemed like the cell biologists/biochemists hogged all the glory and the ChemEs (along with others in the pilot plants/production facilities) were these folks who simply delivered their batches for clinicals. Thus, despite being quantitatively smart, we were dubbed *math freaks* by those in the biosciences and hence, seen as a tool. Granted, I got along with everyone in the company, & the P.I. biologists did like me as I never bragged about ChemE this or that, however, I did resent the poo-pooing of my field of study.

In the Navy Nuclear program, from at least what I'd garnered from my friends who did it, you were a part of a brotherhood, an integral organization with an important purpose. The Navy command did not perceive you to be a mere tool, to keep a submarine up and running.

With that in mind, I couldn't imagine being in a situation where I was basically a part of nothing and merely eye-ing a few LCDs, for weeks at a time, without at least sharing a story with someone. I can see why a Navy Nuke would not be happy there. I guess in an alternate reality, the Navy program is something I would have done, had I been from a more military oriented family background.

Rin, I worked with lotsa veteran techs and engrs in different organizations/companies/industries over the past three decades. Still work with a few.

My overall impression is, (surprise!) everyone was/is an individual; how they fit to the situation was more about the person than the military.

Your references to a military program that you did not serve in sound like "grass is greener somewhere else".

tatupu70 says

I'm not sure if you read my comment--at companies I've worked for HR really only worries about getting the job postings out to the various outlets for soliciting resumes. They are definitely NOT the ones that make decisions about who will get interviewed and who will not. We typically don't get enough response to where it is burdensome on me to look at every one.

At best, HR will discard folks that area obviously over or under qualified or that have changed jobs 5 times in the last 2 years. I would never instruct them to only send me candidates with specific experience because I know that would be too restrictive. Bottom line--HR does what we ask them to--they don't control the job filling process.

You say you are not getting " enough response to where it is burdensome on me to look at every one". How many is that? Could your problem then simply be one of advertising? Does your HR use headhunters?

New Renter says

You say you are not getting " enough response to where it is burdensome on me
to look at every one". How many is that? Could your problem then simply be one
of advertising? Does your HR use headhunters?

Anything's possible. We use several avenues to find candidates including headhunters--they obviously will screen the candidates before sending over the resumes...