patrick.net

Call it Crazy says

SubOink says

I agree BUT you can only include things that you MUST do.

Everything else is optional, you don't have to do it.

There's where you missed the point, just because it's "optional", it's still dollars spent that you wouldn't spend as a tenant. MUST or OPTIONAL, all those dollars have to me accounted for in a true cost comparison...

Call it Crazy says

Even though it was turn key, I still put in almost $20K in upgrades and replaced certain items....

Uh huh...

Call it Crazy says

There's where you missed the point, just because it's "optional", it's still
dollars spent that you wouldn't spend as a tenant. MUST or OPTIONAL, all those
dollars have to me accounted for in a true cost comparison...

So, if you are analyzing the cost of a rental w/garage vs. one w/o a garage, you would also include the cost of the new car you would buy if you had a garage?

Call it Crazy says

SubOink says

I agree BUT you can only include things that you MUST do.

Everything else is optional, you don't have to do it.

There's where you missed the point, just because it's "optional", it's still dollars spent that you wouldn't spend as a tenant. MUST or OPTIONAL, all those dollars have to me accounted for in a true cost comparison...

fair enough, so I would also add the dollars spent on going out and vacations while renting, right? After all, I don't do that now.

the hidden costs of renting a house in the 2-2.5k range in LA:

- $2k several times a year for a week of pampering in a Palm Springs

- $1k / month in restaurants because cooking at home sucks in a 1970 kitchen where all the appliances are rusty and old

- $5k once a year for a real nice trip. After all...our friends are owners and we show them how much nicer it is to rent. Freeeeedom!!!

- $800/month on that BMW that I am leasing to offset the vibe of...oh, he isn't doing so well, just renting...

:)

ok, I am being facetious but you get my point

tatupu70 says

Call it Crazy says

There's where you missed the point, just because it's "optional", it's still

dollars spent that you wouldn't spend as a tenant. MUST or OPTIONAL, all those

dollars have to me accounted for in a true cost comparison...

So, if you are analyzing the cost of a rental w/garage vs. one w/o a garage, you would also include the cost of the new car you would buy if you had a garage?

LOL!! Plus the costs of the chicks that you will whine and dine with that new car. - Remember...the house WITH garage has an infinite spending potential!

Stay away from homes with garages!! The hidden costs could kill you!!

:)

thomaswong.1986 says

sure, but even rents go down. there is no escaping ... you have to look at price trends.

Exactly. Unless an area is Detroited, RE should go up at the rate of inflation. The catch is what is the inflation rate? IMHO, inflation of a locality ~ rate of appreciation of RE because RE is the largest component (may even overwhelmed) of an inflation index. In other words, unless you think the economy in your area is in a permanent decline and people would be leaving, RE would appreciate in the long run. No need to market time the short term price fluctuation.

SubOink says

Over the last 3 years I have slowly worked my way thru the house and ripped of the 1/2inch drywall...replaced and/or added the latest and greatest insulation and closed with 3/4inch drywall and replaced windows. Result: Barely need the heat, barely need the A/C.

Thank for the info. How long would it take? How to check whether it is 1/2 or 3/4 inches without ripping? Also what kind of insulation to use. Did you change insulation at the roof and the crawl space?

hanera says

Thank for the info. How long would it take? How to check whether it is 1/2 or 3/4 inches without ripping? Also what kind of insulation to use. Did you change insulation at the roof and the crawl space?

Re: Drywall

You can kind of feel it when you knock at it. But the easiest way is ...cut out a hole and bring it to your hardware store if you have any doubt. You'll have to patch that spot but its so easy. Chances are that if your main walls are 1/2 inch then your whole house is in 1/2.

Re: Insulation

Boy, thats a whole thread worth of a discussion and opinions differ greatly. I personally have used a few different products depending on what I am trying to achieve. For example between master bedroom and kids room I have gone with a soundproofing type insulation. I have used Ultratouch because its very "fun" to work with. No itching. But on the outside walls I have used something different. Here my primary concern is heat/cold second concern sound. All the insulation accomplishes both tasks but with a focus of one or the other. Also on the outside walls you have to make sure you put a water barrier if the insulation doesn't come with it. Don't use that pink stuff from home depot. It will work and its better than without but chances are your house has something like that already. (and its probable rotting away...). The problem with fiberglass insulation is that if it gets wet it can start to sag within your walls and leave gaps with no insulation and you have a temperature bridge at that spot. So I used Roxul in the outside walls. Whats great about the stone wool stuff is that it doesn't grow mold (like the cheap fiberglass shit) - its also fire resistant. Pretty impressive. We tossed a block in the pool (I am natural skeptic) - it swam on top of the surface. Then I drowned it and it did not absorb the water. Also the batts are somewhat rigid so you can cut them with a carpet knife and fit in the walls easily. BUT they itch so wear long sleeve shirt and pants and gloves and MASK!
We did not do our attic because it was actually already done but our attic space is very small and doesn't impact the temp much. 2 story house.

For more peruse this site http://www.roxul.com/home

Re: How long?

It depends on the room size. But its very quick. When I say DAY and I don't necessarily mean a whole 10 hr day.

Day1: you demo your walls and rip the drywall off and throw out existing nasty fiberglass insulation if there is any (wear MASK)

Day2: install insulation and moisture barrier (2-3hrs for a medium 12-14 room) then re-drywall

Day3: More Drywall unless you finished it on day2. Then mud n tape the drywall

Day4: Let the mud dry.

Day5: Depending on finish. I like smooth walls. I hate texture so for me its 3 days of mud n taping and sanding in between. I get very anal in this process, borderline OCD...ok, my wife says...BORDERLINE?? No..its full on OCD. lol

Day 6: Paint

Done!

Make sure you have all the materials ordered.

If you hire someone to do this make sure you ask for an hourly rate and thats it. All those contractors come in an go "hm...this room...$5k!" if they think you are clueless.

You may want to research how to install the insulation. It's very easy but you just have to know what not to do. (leave gaps etc)

Hope this helps! I would have NEVER thought I 'd be doing stuff myself. The renting life was not very helpful in learning these skills. But you can find anything now on you tube videos. :) Easy stuff!

I will say - a fully insulated house is a complete different feel. Temperature does simply not fluctuate unless its very cold outside and you are not home for days. When I go to bed the temp in the house is 72. At night its 50 outside (and colder before xmas). I wake up in the morning and its 69. No heat!

When we first moved in this house was just like any other house we had rented in the past. Whatever temp is outside is the temp inside. Sometimes we used the heat in the morning and the A/C in the late afternoon.
No more. In the summer we just open the window and let the breeze in. Bam! Cool. I can highly recommend it and no...I do not work for an insulation company :)

also check out the products from KNAUFF. Also good stuff.

SubOink says

Re: Drywall

Re: Insulation

Suboink

Thank you for the detailed overview of your experience. Again this is a big reason I come to PatNet, to benefit from the experiences of others. I will keep the stone (mineral) wool in mind when I eventually do buy as I also appreciate the benefits of a well insulated house. The hydrophobic nature of the stuff is a big plus as you point out nobody wants a wet sponge in their wall which could happen if a roof or pipe were to leak.

I am thinking about using hard plywood and then painting it as a flooring option. People have posted images and it seems like an affordable option. If there are scratches then I can simply fill with wood filler and paint over. What do you guys think?

Carolyn C says

I am thinking about using hard plywood and then painting it as a flooring option. People have posted images and it seems like an affordable option. If there are scratches then I can simply fill with wood filler and paint over. What do you guys think?

click floors are pretty cheap now and easy to install too. I have not heard of the plywood option.

Carolyn C says

I am thinking about using hard plywood and then painting it as a flooring option. People have posted images and it seems like an affordable option. If there are scratches then I can simply fill with wood filler and paint over. What do you guys think?

I think you will be sorry if you do. A painted floor will look so bad you won't be able to carpet over it fast enough. The stained plywood may look OK in the beginning but it will scratch and dent quickly.

If you really have your heart set on a wood floor I'd go with hardwood with a surface made from a wood with a janka hardness of 1800 or better, ideally Ipe or Patagonian Rosewood

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_hardness_test

Ipe is amazing stuff. It lasts decades when used in seaside boardwalks. It also has a class A fire rating, the same as concrete and steel.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10000872396390444868204578063091931357384

I doubt that means much when used in engineered flooring but in decking it can resist catching fire from a tipped over charcoal grill:
'
http://www.advantagelumber.com/ipe_decking_blog/ipe-decking-fire

Patagonian Rosewood is even harder and IMO can look amazing if sealed with a UV blocking sealant, otherwise it will darken.

Carolyn C says

I am thinking about using hard plywood and then painting it as a flooring option. People have posted images and it seems like an affordable option. If there are scratches then I can simply fill with wood filler and paint over. What do you guys think?

Go with marine plywood or Europly if you can swing it -- or some decent A/B grade birch plywood. Don't paint it, just shellac it.

Otherwise, why not go with Marmoleum or something like this:

http://bit.ly/1aP0sE5

I've got that in black all throughout my shop. Good stuff.

the europly stuff is awesome and durable but its not cheap

Call it Crazy says

I'd go look at basic laminate at the big box store.

Which can work out fine, just keep it out of the kitchen and bathrooms and clean up any spills right away.

Also be sure to buy a few extra boxes for future repairs. A few years ago we had to repair some water damage on our laminate flooring. We found that the manufacturer had changed the design of the boards such that the old boards did not work with the new.

Thanks guys you gave me great info. I will look into all of them. It's for a high traffic rental and I will do an add on in a couple of years at which point I plan to put in better materials. That's why I'm looking for cheap but attractive/durable.

Carolyn C says

Thanks guys you gave me great info. I will look into all of them. It's for a high traffic rental and I will do an add on in a couple of years at which point I plan to put in better materials. That's why I'm looking for cheap but attractive/durable.

Oh Hell then cheapass laminate all the way!

New Renter says

Carolyn C says

Thanks guys you gave me great info. I will look into all of them. It's for a high traffic rental and I will do an add on in a couple of years at which point I plan to put in better materials. That's why I'm looking for cheap but attractive/durable.

Oh Hell then cheapass laminate all the way!

Absolutely! Laminate is pretty scratch resistant.

FortWayne says

nd why are you using carpet in rentals? Is there a specific reason to use that over laminate?

In my experience carpet is much better at killing sound transmission. In a small living space that can be the difference between speakers or headphones for late night entertainment.

SubOink says

ok, I am being facetious but you get my point

Yours is a helpful illustration of the discipline it takes to be successful as a renter. That's why not many do it and most will do best financially by going all-in on a house. If you're going all-in, do it in a house. Then you have the forced savings.

SubOink says

When will you realize that you were wrong?

You're basing rightness and wrongness on very short amounts of time. If that were the goal, well, that's a very easy goal. It's easy to be right or wrong for a year or three.