patrick.net

What? No one wants to come to the defense of religion? Not even Marcus?

Look at the bright side: there's a lot of Darwin Awards who remove themselves from the gene pool in search for the afterlife.

Some become monks.
Some blow themselves up.
Some go to war with other Darwin Awards.

is your avatar wearing a bra??

Heraclitusstudent says

Look at the bright side: there's a lot of Darwin Awards who remove themselves from the gene pool in search for the afterlife.

Some become monks.

Some blow themselves up.

Some go to war with other Darwin Awards.

Dan8267 says

What? No one wants to come to the defense of religion? Not even Marcus?

Science vs myths. They will lose every time.

Maybe Dylan got it right; maybe death is not the end. Consciousness, after all, is really only a stratified predicate.

JodyChunder says

Maybe Dylan got it right; maybe death is not the end. Consciousness, after all, is really only a stratified predicate.

No. Your consciousness continues to run after death the same way your spreadsheet continues to run after you power down your desktop.

You as a person are your mind. Your mind is entirely coexistent with your brain. When your brain stops, your mind stops, your consciousness stops, you stop. It's that simple and it's that obvious.

Dan8267 says

JodyChunder says

Maybe Dylan got it right; maybe death is not the end. Consciousness, after all, is really only a stratified predicate.

No. Your consciousness continues to run after death the same way your spreadsheet continues to run after you power down your desktop.

You as a person are your mind. Your mind is entirely coexistent with your brain. When your brain stops, your mind stops, your consciousness stops, you stop. It's that simple and it's that obvious.

In other words, lights out means just that....lights out.
Just enjoy your life and don't worry about anything.

IT's extremely sad, whatever her reasons were. But there are many possibilities.. Maybe she was smart and doubted the existence of an afterlife(which loved ones assured her existed), but was extremely depressed and going through all the other difficulties of being a girl that age, and killed herself for a number of reasons (some chemical perhaps? That's usually the case).

If you've ever thought about it, what is the toughest thing about killing oneself ? Answer: Caring about the impact it will have on others.

So her putting in to a note (if that's how we magically know what her exact state of mind and thinking was that led her to this) that she is now with her dad, may very likely have been written for the benefit of those who will miss her.

Actually, her note::

"Maria, from Leszno in Poland, had left a short note, which read: "Dear Mum. Please don't be sad. I just miss daddy so much, I want to see him again."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/maria-kislo-schoolgirl-found-hanged-2530189#ixzz2q2K0yKM4

Then again, maybe she is (was) an avid atheist and the knew this would make some great propaganda for some of the most simple minded radical atheists out there.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/10/27/to-be-with-her-father-in-heaven-girl-12-commits-suicide/

marcus says

So her putting in to a note (if that's how we magically know what her exact state of mind and thinking was that led her to this) that she is now with her dad, may very likely have been written for the benefit of those who will miss her.

Actually, her note::

"Maria, from Leszno in Poland, had left a short note, which read: "Dear Mum. Please don't be sad. I just miss daddy so much, I want to see him again."

Here allow me to save you the trouble.

IT would still be true that without this religious *lie she would not have been able to leave it as a comforting message for her mother, and then she would have been more aware of the impact it would have, probably preventing her from doing it.

Could be.

*Regarding that "lie." Who knows how many people otherwise may have been too grief sticken by a loved ones death (eg people used to lose a lot of young children to sickness) to even go on living, that is without that "lie."

How do priests who know better tell that lie ? Probably because they believe it, in a way. It's symbolic. We return to where we came from. This may be back to nothing or it might be something else, I don't know. They romatacize something that's a mystery.

That is, it's a mystery to me and most other people. I do not have to have the answers like some egos do. I certainly do not think we retain our human mind or ego, but I'm not going to say that I know there is nothing. It's too simple too definitive, and yes I'm the kind of person that's happy to say I DON't KNOW.

IF you want me to assign probabilities, sure, the nothing hypotheses is more likely. But still, I am quite comfortable with 'I don't know.'

Out of curiosity Dan, how many of your all time most beloved people in your life have you lost ? Just curious.

marcus says

IT's extremely sad, whatever her reasons were.

Her reasons aren't in question. We know what they were. She believed in heaven. She thought her dad was in heaven. She thought she would see her dad in heaven if she died. She was wrong about all three things.

Don't try to change the facts. There is no doubt that she ended her life because of her false belief in an afterlife.

More importantly, it's extremely sad precisely because there is no afterlife. If heaven did exist, this story would be a happy one, not a tragic one. It's only tragic if the afterlife is a lie. How could 80 years of pain and hardship be worth delaying an eternality of bliss? It isn't. If the afterlife were real, then the girl did the right thing and we should rejoice. The fact that no one is rejoicing over this proves that none of us really believe in that shit when it comes down to it.

marcus says

Then again, maybe she is (was) an avid atheist and the knew this would make some great propaganda for some of the most simple minded radical atheists out there.

You are going way out of your way inventing falsehoods in order to defend another falsehood that cannot stand up to direct scrutiny. This is a disingenuous lie, and even advocating it cheapens the girl's life. If her dead is to have any positive influence on the world, that is, if her life isn't too be completely wasted, then at least we should learn something from her tragic demise. To undermine that is as crass as pissing on the poor girl's grave.

marcus says

Regarding that "lie."

Putting the word "lie" in quotes does not make a lie any less of a lie. There had to be at least one first person who invented the lie of an afterlife. Each of those first persons made up the lie, no different than if I were to tell you that Napoleon freed the American slaves from Ming the Merciless.

The fact that a lie has persisted over millennia does not change the fact that it is a lie, has always been a lie, and will always be a lie. Nor does social acceptance of a lie make it any less of a lie. If anything, social acceptance makes a lie more dangerous.

marcus says

WHo knows how many people otherwise may have been too grief sticken by a loved ones death (eg people used to lose a lot of young children to sickness) too even go on living, that is without that "lie."

Oh, so now the lie is justified because, without doing any scientific study, you assert that maybe the number of people who off themselves because of the lie is less than the number of people who would off themselves from grief without the lie. Well, that's a big IF. And suicide is hardly the only negative consequence of this lie and all the other lies with which it's bundled.

Even in the best scenario, the lie merely adverts people from dealing with their grief and handling it. By that philosophy, you should just get piss drunk of high to deal with grief. Even those things are less dangerous than religion. At least no one wages wars across the centuries over the issue of ale or lager.

marcus says

I do not have to have the answers like some egos do.

It's not egotistical to recognize that human beings can obtain knowledge about the universe. Anyone who says, "I know nothing", is a liar. Every person is born with a certain level of knowledge and understanding hardwired into our brains through the arduous process of evolution. Then throughout our lives we learn at the edges of our knowledge, continually expanding those boundaries. To recognize what lies within those boundaries no more egotistical than recognizing that one knows how to drive properly and stop at traffic lights is egotistical.

Ironically, the most egotistical statement ever made was The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing. That's bullshit. I know the square root of two is irrational. I can build on that. Touting willful ignorance as humility is egotistical.

marcus says

IF you want me to assign probabilities, sure, the nothing hypotheses is more likely.

There is as much reason to believe in a heaven after death as there is to believe that you will go to a smurf orgy after you die. As such, it is sensible to assign these two events the same probability.

marcus says

Out of curiosity Dan, how many of your all time most beloved people in your life have you lost ?

More than zero, and I would not cheapen their memories by pretending they are playing shuffle board with angels.

More importantly, my parents are seniors and still alive. If I believed in an afterlife, there would be no reason to spend time with them on Earth since I'll have all the time in eternity to catch up with them after death. Luckily, I'm not that stupid. I know the time I have with them is a limited and precious commodity, and I do not waste it.

Belief in an afterlife is the primary motivation for wasting real life and the limited time your consciousness has.

Wow. All this because a girl kills herself and in her note to her Mother she says:

"Dear Mum. Please don't be sad. I just miss daddy so much, I want to see him again."

I actually do not believe that is the reason. That is my opinion. You know what an opinion is, and how that's different than a fact ? Usually a severe chemical imbalance is what causes a 12 year old to end their own life.

Yes, she tried to comfort her mother in the note. Maybe your OPINION is correct that her saying that meant more than just an attempt to comfort her mother. Maybe not.

Dan8267 says

marcus says

Then again, maybe she is (was) an avid atheist and the knew this would make some great propaganda for some of the most simple minded radical atheists out there.

You are going way out of your way inventing falsehoods in order to defend another falsehood that cannot stand up to direct scrutiny

It was a joke. Sort of a troll, but I thought you would recognize it as such.