patrick.net

tatupu70 says

Again--what the hell is wrong with you?? When one argues with you guys, it's an argument over facts, not opinions. $1.00 in 1956 is worth $8.56 in 2013.

Wow seriously going to use the CPLie? If you want to use the CPI sure a dollar back then is worth $8. But if you were to use GDP per capita $1 back in 1956 compared with 2012 would be almost $20. If you compare it to the overall economy it's over $36.

CPI is not a good indicator of standard of living since it has been changed so many times throughout its history.

Here are some more numbers when compared to 1956:

In 1960
$1 from CPI $1.09
$1 from GDP Per Capita $1.12
$1 from total economic output $1.21

In 1990
$1 from CPI is $4.81
$1 from GDP per capita is $8.93
$1 from total economic output $13.30

2000
$1 from CPI $6.34
$1 from GDP per Capita is $13.60
$1 from total economic output $22.90

2012
$1 from CPI $8.45
$1 from GDP per Capita $19.30
$1 from total economic output $36.10

http://www.measuringworth.com/uscompare/relativevalue.php

Edit: I find it odd that CPI stays relatively low for over 50 years but the other economic indicators tell a much different story.

spydah_hh says

Edit: I find it odd that CPI stays relatively low for over 50 years but the other economic indicators tell a much different story.

It's called productivity.

spydah_hh says

Wow seriously going to use the CPLie?

lol--yes, I prefer to go with actual facts and data. I prefer that over pulling numbers out of one's ass. Seriously--where did you get $25??

tatupu70 says

spydah_hh says

Edit: I find it odd that CPI stays relatively low for over 50 years but the other economic indicators tell a much different story.

It's called productivity.

Yet people's wages and purchasing power have stagnated for the last 30-40 years. If real productivity was increasing then people's wages would have increased as well. But that's not the case at all.

tatupu70 says

spydah_hh says

Wow seriously going to use the CPLie?

lol--yes, I prefer to go with actual facts and data. I prefer that over pulling numbers out of one's ass. Seriously--where did you get $25??

CPI isn't telling the real story it doesn't include things like home sales and energy or even food for the matter. It tends to subcategories food and even homes in a different manner.

So yes the data they present is factual but it doesn't tell the story of higher cost of living since they're not using the right variables in the data.

spydah_hh says

Yet people's wages and purchasing power have stagnated for the last 30-40 years. If real productivity was increasing then people's wages would have increased as well. But that's not the case at all

In aggregate, they have. The problem is that inequality has also grown dramatically so medians don't show it.

spydah_hh says

CPI isn't telling the real story it doesn't include things like home sales and energy or even food for the matter. It tends to subcategories food and even homes in a different manner.

Yes it does. As I've posted on here numerous times--CPI includes housing costs, food costs, and energy costs.

There is also something called core CPI which excludes food and energy because they are more volatile and can skew the numbers. But the straight CPI DOES include everything in the basket of goods.

Like I said--I've spent the past 6 posts correcting all your factual inaccuracies. Which is how most debates go on here anymore.

tatupu70 says

spydah_hh says

Yet people's wages and purchasing power have stagnated for the last 30-40 years. If real productivity was increasing then people's wages would have increased as well. But that's not the case at all

In aggregate, they have. The problem is that inequality has also grown dramatically so medians don't show it.

Honestly, I think most of the productivity comes from the top, so yes there is inequality in that sense. But productivity in the average worker, I am willing to bet is down considering that real not official unemployment is high and also because most people are on some form of social welfare and not working or if they are only part-time.

But the problems with the inequality we're experiencing are the barriers of entry to form a business. There are too many hoops and barriers for one to cross if they were to start a business and try to compete with the big dogs. Since they remain at the top and stay at the top thanks to government policies and bailouts income inequality will always remain. Truth is there is no competition with wall street and that's why the wealth gets concentrated to the top.

spydah_hh says

Honestly, I think most of the productivity comes from the top

lol--I'm sure you do.

spydah_hh says

But productivity in the average worker, I am willing to bet is down considering that real not official unemployment is high and also because most people are on some form of social welfare and not working or if they are only part-time.

So, in your opinion, it's not the lower level workers that are doing more, it's the CEOs? The companies that are doing more with less these days--they are employing fewer CEOs and VPs?? That is really what you think?

marcus says

Actually, when inflation occurs, wages must go up.

that may be but they don't necessarily rise at the same rate. In the mid and late 70's price inflation outstripped wage inflation creating the phenom of stagflation.
The circumstance are similar today with the fed trying to hit its inflation target in deflationary times, while wages are not rising

Schiff inartfully compared the ability of capitalist and socialist economies to provide goods and services by saying-"people don't go hungry in a capitalist economy." They do.

The point is that lack of goods, food and bread lines are more common in socialists countries like the USSR, Cuba and modern day Venezuela that in capitalist ones.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/at-markets-chavez-successor-falls-short/2014/01/31/ac85c62a-8518-11e3-a273-6ffd9cf9f4ba_story.html

bgamall4 says

spydah_hh says

Yeah do what Singapore is doing, remove minimum wage. It causes more problems than it creates.

Damn you must be a new world order Zionist. You want total destruction of main street don't you?

Singapore from the little I know is a real mixed bag-it has "free markets", yet is very restrictive in personal freedom with plenty of rules on what you can do and say and it has workfare.

Here is a short article on singapore. Would like to learn more
http://www.mws.org.sg/Dispatcher?action=SocialIssueTopic&id=Sc12ce388725076

smaulgld says

bgamall4 says

spydah_hh says

Yeah do what Singapore is doing, remove minimum wage. It causes more problems than it creates.

Damn you must be a new world order Zionist. You want total destruction of main street don't you?

Singapore from the little I know is a real mixed bag-it has "free markets", yet is very restrictive in personal freedom with plenty of rules on what you can do and say and it has workfare.

Here is a short article on singapore. Would like to learn more

http://www.mws.org.sg/Dispatcher?action=SocialIssueTopic&id=Sc12ce388725076

Singapore looks for market mechanisms to solve any problem involving cost.

smaulgld says

Schiff inartfully compared the ability of capitalist and socialist economies to provide goods and services by saying-"people don't go hungry in a capitalist economy." They do.

USA USA USA!

Guys like Schiff never want to talk about socialist countries which do a GREAT job of feeding their people. Typical. Still trapped in a Cold War paradigm, socialism=Commie=bread lines. They cannot explain Norway, France, Denmark so they just ignore them. Those aren't "real" countries I suppose.

smaulgld says

70's price inflation outstripped wage inflation creating the phenom of stagflation

I thought stagflation was when we have inflation and recession simultaneously.

tatupu70 says

spydah_hh says

Honestly, I think most of the productivity comes from the top

lol--I'm sure you do.

Of course, didn't you know it's capital that does the heavy lifting.

And watching rents go up is especially strenuous.

Vicente says

smaulgld says

Schiff inartfully compared the ability of capitalist and socialist economies to provide goods and services by saying-"people don't go hungry in a capitalist economy." They do.

USA USA USA!

Guys like Schiff never want to talk about socialist countries which do a GREAT job of feeding their people. Typical. Still trapped in a Cold War paradigm, socialism=Commie=bread lines. They cannot explain Norway, France, Denmark so they just ignore them. Those aren't "real" countries I suppose.

The problem is with these definitions, similar to left and right and republican vs democrat. Many of those countries don't have any minimum wage, but their unions and employers usually come to good agreements in most sectors. Rent control has been removed or lifted in a lot of European countries known as "socialistic". Capital gains tax is all over the place but usually less taxed than income (some have no cap. gains tax). If you look at the progressive tax rates, a lot of these "socialist" countries tax less than the US, some have flat taxes. And they don't continuously bai out underwater home owners and bankers, so less socialism there as well. Grouping countries in these terms becomes more and more meaningless.

Vicente says

cannot explain Norway, France, Denmark so they just ignore them

Actually, you should know, Norway has no minimum wage, even though average fast food workers make more over there. Germany also does not have one yet. Even Denmark doesn't have a strict minimum wage. They do have other social programs. But they are not more socialist in every respect.

France does have the highest minimum wage, and we know great French economy has been lately.

gsr says

Norway has no minimum wage

When something like 1/5th of Norwegians are Union members, you don't need it. The American minimum wage is a pathetic shred of labor protection by comparison.

mell says

If you look at the progressive tax rates, a lot of these "socialist" countries tax less than the US, some have flat taxes.

What is your source of information on this?

tatupu70 says

Yes it does. As I've posted on here numerous times--CPI includes housing costs, food costs, and energy costs.

There is also something called core CPI which excludes food and energy because they are more volatile and can skew the numbers. But the straight CPI DOES include everything in the basket of goods.

Like I said--I've spent the past 6 posts correcting all your factual inaccuracies. Which is how most debates go on here anymore.

You were saying?

Over the years, the methodology used to calculate the CPI has also undergone numerous revisions. According to the BLS, the changes removed biases that caused the CPI to overstate the inflation rate. The new methodology takes into account changes in the quality of goods and substitution. Substitution, the change in purchases by consumers in response to price changes, changes the relative weighting of the goods in the basket. The overall result tends to be a lower CPI. However, critics view the methodological changes and the switch from a COGI to a COLI focus as a purposeful manipulation that allows the U.S. government to report a lower CPI.

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/07/consumerpriceindex.asp

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article4018.html

spydah_hh says

You were saying?

I was saying you were wrong. Which you were. CPI includes housing, food, and energy.

You are welcome to join Indigenous in disbelieving all facts and statistics which counter his religious beliefs, but the onus is on you to provide some data showing how/why they are wrong.

bgamall4 says

So, you admit that it isn't the fault of main street but rather speculation and QE that has made commodities so expensive?

Yes most of the problems rely on speculation and QE. However main street is part of the problem too, specifically from public unions, public pensions, minimum wage etc. But if we removed QE and currency debasement we wouldn't need things like minimum wage or even public pensions at the tax payers expense for the matter.

tatupu70 says

spydah_hh says

You were saying?

I was saying you were wrong. Which you were. CPI includes housing, food, and energy.

You are welcome to join Indigenous in disbelieving all facts and statistics which counter his religious beliefs, but the onus is on you to provide some data showing how/why they are wrong.

CPI doesn't include home sales they use rents. That's just one of the things they changed. Geez, you can even look at the BLS CPI FAQ website.

So yeah.. You were saying?

tatupu70 says

spydah_hh says

You were saying?

I was saying you were wrong. Which you were. CPI includes housing, food, and energy.

You are welcome to join Indigenous in disbelieving all facts and statistics which counter his religious beliefs, but the onus is on you to provide some data showing how/why they are wrong.

Personally I like to look at Shadowstats Goverment statistics because they use the pre 1980 method of CPI before when Regan changed it and even before Clinton when he changed it in the 1990s. If oyu use the 1980s chart or 1990s chart (post Regan change) we get a different result of inflation over the years.

http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts

spydah_hh says

CPI doesn't include home sales they use rents. That's just one of the things they changed. Geez, you can even look at the BLS CPI FAQ website.

So yeah.. You were saying?

They use rental equivilent--not rents. So, yes I can look at it and comprehend it. Unfortunately, I can't say the same about you.

spydah_hh says

Personally I like to look at Shadowstats Goverment statistics because they use the pre 1980 method of CPI before when Regan changed it and even before Clinton when he changed it in the 1990s. If oyu use the 1980s chart or 1990s chart (post Regan change) we get a different result of inflation over the years.

That doesn't surprise me. Shadowstats has been roundly discredited on here several times.

spydah_hh says

Personally I like to look at Shadowstats Goverment statistics because they use
the pre 1980 method of CPI before when Regan changed it and even before Clinton
when he changed it in the 1990s.

Shadowstats had positive inflation rate of 2-4% in 2008/09. That is all you need to look at to know their numbers are incorrect.

You THINK CPI is bogus and Williams publishes something higher, so that is why you like the numbers. It is not because of his methodology.

I asked for his data and he wanted me to pay for it. Nice peer review there....

You can make a lot of money publishing "data" that "proves" a preconcieved notion. There are "think tanks" that do this all over the place.

Williams is nothing different. He knows what butters his bread and gets him subscribers - his data is going to support that narrative 100%....

spydah_hh says

CPI doesn't include home sales they use rents.

"Owners equivalent rent" does not equal "Rent."

tatupu70 says

A weaker dollar is actually good for the US right now. It would bring jobs back here.

Feel free to weaken the dollar by giving me all the newly printed dollars. I'll go right out and spend them.

A weak dollar, a strong dollar, it doesn't matter. You could make the dollar worth less than one millionth of its current value. It wouldn't help exports one damn bit if you did so instantaneously and without stealing purchasing power from people.

It is not a weak dollar that helps imports but rather a weakening dollar. It's not the value of the dollar, but the differential of the value of the dollar with respect to time that matters. In simple terms, it's the slope, not the value.

A weakening dollar is one in which money is being stolen from savers and fix-income folk, i.e. your grandma, and is being used to subsidize the purchases of U.S. goods by foreigners. If you are in favor of that, then at least to it honestly. Take the money right out of your grandma's social security check and send it directly to China.

Dan8267 says

A weak dollar, a strong dollar, it doesn't matter. You could make the dollar worth less than one millionth of its current value. It wouldn't help exports one damn bit if you did so instantaneously and without stealing purchasing power from people.

How could you make the dollar worth less than one millionth of its current value without stealing purchasing power from people?

Dan8267 says

It is not a weak dollar that helps imports but rather a weakening dollar

Whether you do it all at once or over a long time period, the effect is the same. It makes doing business in the US cheaper.

Dan8267 says

A weakening dollar is one in which money is being stolen from savers and fix-income folk, i.e. your grandma, and is being used to subsidize the purchases of U.S. goods by foreigners. If you are in favor of that, then at least to it honestly. Take the money right out of your grandma's social security check and send it directly to China.

Yep--these same fixed income people that have enjoyed low inflation for the past 20 years as our jobs were shipped overseas. I'm not going to shed any tears. You think we're not sending money to China now??? Have you seen our trade deficit?? I'd rather fix the trade deficit instead of worrying about our purchasing power.

marcus says

smaulgld says

70's price inflation outstripped wage inflation creating the phenom of stagflation

I thought stagflation was when we have inflation and recession simultaneously.

Yes that is a definition and the recession causes unemployment and wage stagnation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagflation an overall decline in the standard of living or an increase in the "misery index"

Vicente says

smaulgld says

Schiff inartfully compared the ability of capitalist and socialist economies to provide goods and services by saying-"people don't go hungry in a capitalist economy." They do.

USA USA USA!

Guys like Schiff never want to talk about socialist countries which do a GREAT job of feeding their people. Typical. Still trapped in a Cold War paradigm, socialism=Commie=bread lines. They cannot explain Norway, France, Denmark so they just ignore them. Those aren't "real" countries I suppose.

Nordic country socialist successes can be explained by thriving private sectors and far more efficient administration and less waste fraud and abuse in government. Norway in particular also benefits from a low population and massive oil revenues
Venezuela, Cuba and ussr failed because the government tried to control the means of production and couldn't bake enough bread

indigenous says

mell says

If you look at the progressive tax rates, a lot of these "socialist" countries tax less than the US, some have flat taxes.

What is your source of information on this?

I think the tax codes are simpler too. In the us there are many loopholes that allow some to not pay their "fair share". While taxes may be intrusive if they are flat, companies and individuals can conduct their business without "tax planning" that results in non productive time consuming endeavors

Venezuela's real, inflation-adjusted GDP was propelled to the moon following Chavez' election in 1999 and 2010, and particularly after he broke the State Oil Monopoly that was run by the top 1% of their own benefit (that was portrayed in th US as "Poor Striking Workers" - even though countless people that didn't exist were being paid outrageous salaries and some people were collecting multiple F/T Salaries)

Inflation was much lower under Chavez than his Chicago-School, US Crony, Criollo Predecessors.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/venezuela-economic-and-social-performance-under-hugo-chavez/5326013

thunderlips11 says

Venezuela's real, inflation-adjusted GDP was propelled to the moon following Chavez' election in 1999 and 2010, and particularly after he broke the State Oil Monopoly that was run by the top 1% of their own benefit (that was portrayed in th US as "Poor Striking Workers" - even though countless people that didn't exist were being paid outrageous salaries and some people were collecting multiple F/T Salaries)

Inflation was much lower under Chavez than his Chicago-School, US Crony, Criollo Predecessors.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/venezuela-economic-and-social-performance-under-hugo-chavez/5326013

Crony capitalism can be worse than a state owned economy depending on the players but Venezuela should never be used as an example of a properly functioning economy!

smaulgld says

Crony capitalism can be worse than a state owned economy depending on the players but Venezuela should never be used as an example of a properly functioning economy!

Fair enough. I think "State Owned" to Venezuela is US Corpratist - MSM propaganda though. The Oil Monopoly was already public, just kowtowing to foreign companies and full of graft. Wide swaths of the VZ economy went unchanged, and aside from the Public Grocery stores offering only basic staple items at subsidized prices, Chavez didn't nationalize very much. .

He did start collecting the sales tax, which many businesses had been charging customers but pocketing for themselves.

bgamall4 says

You know that won't happen. Wall Street is already complaining. The only way you can stop QE is to substitute real infrastructure improvement and getting more money into the hands of the regular guys who are being left behind.

QE will be stopped once the dollar collapse. In fact the only way to stop it will be to raise interest rates but if we did that then this country will go broke.

Yes, the money needs to not be concentrated to the top but to do so will require something different than what you're advocating.

bgamall4 says

spydah_hh says

bgamall4 says

You know that won't happen. Wall Street is already complaining. The only way you can stop QE is to substitute real infrastructure improvement and getting more money into the hands of the regular guys who are being left behind.

QE will be stopped once the dollar collapse. In fact the only way to stop it will be to raise interest rates but if we did that then this country will go broke.

Yes, the money needs to not be concentrated to the top but to do so will require something different than what you're advocating.

We don't want concentration at the top. Only you do.

Uh no I don't I never even said I do. you're miss interpreting my posts.

I like watching Rand Paul squirm when asked if the minimum wage should be abolished:

STEPHANOPOULOS: Should the Federal government be able to set a minimum wage?

PAUL: It's not a question of whether they can or canot. I think that's decided. I think the question you have to ask is whether or not when you set the minimum wage it may cause unemployment.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/05/rand_paul_ducks_question_about.html