patrick.net

edvard2 says

Luckily I am not "Like that guy" see the above comments. Thanks.

I still remember you claiming that constitution had a "right to happiness" in it. So you really are that guy, along with sbh who has "foundational ideas".

Yes, the founding framers had ideals, and this Republic was rooted in those ideals.

edvard2 says

errc says

I have nothing against gays. I have nothing against gays marrying

I just happen to agree with the premise of the thread, that it is quite the odd issue to prioritize.

Marijuana smokers are jailed by the millions. Obama could easily push to do the right thing and reschedule marijuana, where it ought to be. Non addictive, has medical benefits,,,,,and put an end to the madness. But somehow, that's on the back burner to gay marriage??? SERIOUSLY??

The premise of this thread is nonsense to start with. Bringing up an unrelated issue isn't a valid point either. Want to bring up issues that deserve attention? How many days do you want to spend listing them all out? The comments about gay rights were addressed because it is in fact a serious issue, and it also happened to be one of the particular issues addressed in the post.

You go to great lengths to avoid being critical of your own party,,,and your beliefs for that matter. It is ok to admit wrong doing, learn from your mistakes, and moved forward

FortWayne says

I still remember you claiming that constitution had a "right to happiness" in it. So you really are that guy, along with sbh who has "foundational ideas".

What exactly is your problem with "foundational ideas" as a way to describe the constitution? Perhaps you would prefer "the ideas that were the foundation of America"? Seriously -- I've read enough of your posts here to know that you should not be criticizing others' writing skills.

errc says

You go to great lengths to avoid being critical of your own party,,,and your beliefs for that matter. It is ok to admit wrong doing, learn from your mistakes, and moved forward

That would be a great start for a more fruitful discussion beyond the effectively one-and-the-same party line.

FortWayne says

Another great deal of you communist lefties

Oh for heaven's sake, stop being so party obssesed. Think outside of your liberal and conservative media diet. Divided we fall.

hrhjuliet says

Oh for heaven's sake, stop being so party obssesed. Think outside of your liberal and conservative media diet. Divided we fall.

Liberals can't take criticism of their silly priorities that's all. You point out that their priorities rival to that of a 15 year old, and they get really offended. And they get offended, because they are being called out on their childishness.

Out of all ills in our society, of all the problems and real problems, liberal priorities these days are fictitious war on women, gay marriage, and stray dogs... I can't even comprehend why they prioritize like children.

Maybe so, but I don't see proclaimed conservatives acting with any more maturity than proclaimed liberals. Not being a fan of either team, let me say that I truly believe that both parties are distracted by issues that can be argued into nihilism, and as relevant as they all are, I believe that all our freedoms and the issues you all fight about are threatened by the insidious power of the Fed.Reserve\Corporate\Bank empire within our Republic. I honestly believe that our internal fighting with each other is meant to depress and wear us out so we can not fight the real power. I also do not believe in the myth of a liberal media or a conservative media. Fox, NBC, you name it, they are all empire media. Millions have been pumped into finding out what will make conservatives feel that FOX is objective and honest, and millions have been pumped into the psychology of what will make proclaimed liberals feel trust for NBC. Divided we fall.

errc says

Gay people don't go to prison in this country, for being gay

Gays are still beaten, killed, and driven to suicide in this country.

errc says

Marijuana prohibition leads to hundreds of deaths every day, millions in prison,

And how exactly will ceasing to support gay civil and human rights advance the legalization or decriminalization of marijuana or in any way help those wrongly imprisoned for marijuana related offenses?

If anything, supporting liberal values including equality for gays would help all causes of liberty including marijuana users. Changing the culture to one of freedom and liberty to all is an important aspect of any fight for justice.

FortWayne says

I still remember you claiming that constitution had a "right to happiness" in it.

Are you sure they didn't mean the right to pursue happiness and the Declaration of Independence? In any case, please quote the specific post.

errc says

I just happen to agree with the premise of the thread, that it is quite the odd issue to prioritize.

The premise of the thread is false to begin with. Errc, usually you're smarter than this, you see through distractions better. I wonder if you're simply having a bad day. As I pointed out in the link, the OP has a problem with black people being on TV, so he calls the media "Liberal" because some TV shows are integrated. His complaints about that don't get him anywhere, but somehow he is able to fool some people by scapegoating the gays, instead.

In America, the equal protection of the laws is a fundamental right, not a privilege. That is a founding principle from the Declaration of Independence and codified expressly in the 14th Amendment, which was written by the generation that survived the Civil War. If you read the original pledge of allegiance, enacted while that generation yet lived, note what they emphasized: "one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." (The religious bit was added during the McCarthy era.) They had survived the most lethal war in American history, and they wanted to spare us the pain of repeating it.

Forthood wants it back, and hides behind a picture of Ronald Reagan, who didn't even agree with his views anyway. The Reagans had friends who were gay, including a lesbian couple who were invited to house-sit and baby-sit the kids, and a gay male couple who were invited to stay in the Lincoln bedroom at the White House.

The recent progress towards equality in the area of same-sex marriage has resulted mostly from courts applying the 14th amendment. It isn't a matter of priorities in the sense of 'let's make progress on one issue at the expense of other issues.' If you want to understand how progress occurs, look at the mechanisms. "Don't Ask Don't Tell" was repealed only after courts declared it unconstitutional and ordered the military to stop enforcing it; then, mirabile dictu, Congress authorized the President to end it, and he did. The President deserves credit for doing the right thing in that area, even while we hope he will also do the right thing in more areas.

There are strong legal arguments to be made on the subject of drug legalization, but they aren't gaining traction, and the reason for that has to do with the tsunami of financial power going the opposite way: if you accept the premise that government has the power to tell you what drugs to ingest and what drugs not to ingest, and what you must do for your own health, then you can mandate 1/3 of GDP to the medical industrial complex, the prison industrial complex, and the military industrial complex. That's what you're up against, and I can understand your frustration, but I can't understand how you would allow Forthood to subvert it into resentment of gay couples getting married or calling that a "privilege" when everyone else has a fundamental right to marriage.

Dan8267 says

Are you sure they didn't mean the right to pursue happiness and the Declaration of Independence? In any case, please quote the specific post.

All right here:
http://patrick.net/?p=1235804&c=1040660#comment-1040660

edvard2 says

The constitution specifically states that all citizens are guaranteed the right to happiness and that we are all created equal.

I have a challenge for the Pat.net political voices. What do the conservatives and liberals agree on? Where are you two the same? Please don't digress into childish answers like, "we don't have anything in common, I hate them and I won't play with those commi-bastards, Nazi-conservative, fill in the blank with an insult here:________" answer. Mature answers please, I am honestly curious and home with a nasty cold and terrible poison oak, so take pity, and entertain, educate and enlighten my pitiful self.

FortWayne says

Out of all ills in our society, of all the problems and real problems, liberal priorities these days are fictitious war on women, gay marriage, and stray dogs... I can't even comprehend why they prioritize like children.

I'm going to have to call bullshit on lots of things in that post.

1. Conservatives have made up countless War on X bullshit stories including the War on Christmas, the War on Easter, the War on Christianity, the War on Family Values.

It's perfectly fair play for the other 2/3rds of the U.S. population to use the term the War on Women to refer to conservatives trying to sex shame women, including rape victims, by making them submit to trans-vaginal ultrasounds for purely political reasons before getting an abortion.

Since when does a politician have the right to force any woman to let another person put something inside her vagina? That's far more of a War on Women than a secularist insisting that the courthouse doesn't display a Christian Nativity scene.

Even when I was a Catholic I opposed that because I was also an American. Keep the courthouse secular, the mall commercial, and the church religious. I don't sell dildos and iPads in your church; don't sell your god in my court.

2. Fort Wayne has yet to demonstrate he even has a basic understanding of what a liberal is, nonetheless what a liberal's priorities are.

3. Just because liberals advocate human and civil rights does not mean they don't also heavily advocate economic and political reforms. Of course, since liberalism has nothing to do with economics, you can't tell anything about a person's economic philosophy from the fact that he's a liberal. Liberals span all reasonable economic philosophies.

4. Just because gay marriage isn't something you approve of, does not make it insignificant. If you think it's an unimportant issue, then simply stop objecting to it. Concede the fight if it's not an important fight to you.

Equality under law is damn important to me. To undermine this principle, protected by the 14th Amendment, is to piss on the grave of every soldier whoever died protecting the Constitution. That alone is reason to support marriage equality. Unless we uphold civil rights, every soldier who died ceases to be a hero and becomes a victim who's death was pointless.

5. There is nothing in supporting the rights of women, gays, or animals that hinders taking other actions or supporting other causes. What you are suggesting is akin to telling the cops to stop investigating rape cases until all the murder cases are solved, and for prosecutors to stop prosecuting all crimes until there are no more murders. It's just plain stupid.

hrhjuliet says

Where are you two the same?

Ironically, I think the Captain said it best, in response to a new User who wondered why people here seemed to thrash each other so much. He said we're people who thought our elected representatives listened to actual people, maybe some of us even wrote letters, then we saw that elected representatives listen primarily to campaign financiers and revolving doormen offering patronage jobs and "investment" opportunities. So, instead of getting drunk at the bar, we type at each other here. As the Captain said, "It's our thing."

One thing I've learned here, seeing how deeply divided people are, and how unmovable they are in their disagreements, governing this country is a real challenge. It reminds me of something Ron Paul said: the less government we have, the less we need to agree on. Conversely, the more government gets involved in every aspect of our daily lives, the more opportunities politicians have to divide and misrule us. It's very lucrative, as the prison industrial complex can attest.

Thank you sbh, I am covered in some chalky pink stuff and my two year old is a little freaked out by it. I will try Technu, maybe it will be less freaky. Carmel is seriously one big poison oak farm. I think the sand on the beach and the city streets are the only safe spots in the entire area. Ugh. Thank for the insights and answering my questions. I do enjoy the rants on Pat.net, more entertaining than TV, and always an education. I hope more people answer my little question. :-)

hrhjuliet says

chalky pink stuff

Ah, calamine lotion, I'm guessing from memory. At night, you might want to try a diphenydramine hydrochloride tablet. It's an anti-histamine, the main side effect being drowsiness, so it gets marketed as a night-time product, e.g. in "Tylenol PM" and generic versions. It is also available as a cream, somewhat effective but not better than calamine. IMMV, and I'm not pretending to give medical advice over the interwebs; read the warnings on the label and the directions carefully; IIRC, other side effects can include temporarily elevating the blood pressure, which can be problematic for people who suffer from hypertension.

hrhjuliet says

What do the conservatives and liberals agree on?

Yeah, I don't agree with the essential premise of a "pox on both your houses". There isn't a compromise between, say wrong and right, or if the Earth is round. There is a truth and that is real, and the conservatives are almost always on the wrong side of it.

The values that you can see above, illustrated by SBH and Dan, are that our PRINCIPLES are larger than our individual self-interest. If you want justice, you want it for all people. That is fair, Democratic, -- even what we used to call sportsmanship falls under that rubric. Is there really another opinion that's better, or more noble?

I'm not gay, but I'm not a liberal because I have gay friends or for some weird political agenda. I am pro-fairness, and against pettiness. Our foundational principles don't allow for equal treatment under the law, they demand it.

And they are and should be timeless. Not based on some electoral whim, and not conveniently tossed aside because someone thinks so, based on their own morality.

It's not "free speech" unless you offend, right? Similarly, there is no point to freedom if it means the majority reserves some rights for itself exclusively.

If I'm right, then a conservative is just a liberal waiting to have that epiphany. And me being a liberal, I believe in their inherent abilities to reason and come to good, moral conclusions, and I'm patient enough to wait it out. :)

That said, perhaps we agree that we should not be taxed any higher than necessary to pay for our government. It's not like liberals WANT to be taxed, but again, they are able to put that aside and do what is in the larger interest. That's how we roll. :)

FortWayne says

You point out that their priorities rival to that of a 15 year old, and they get really offended.

I point out that these aren't priorities just because you say so, and you can't even begin to comprehend what I'm saying.

Good trolling though. This thread was an all time stupid one, even for you, and yes it is amazing that so many of us bother responding to something this absurd.

If an issue is worth addressing, and simultaneously exposes you for being homophobic and probably secretly a homo yourself (like most others that make such a big deal of this), then why not address it ?

That doesn't make it a high priority though, above things like jobs, or energy policy, or the environment.

FortWayne says

If you watch the news even badly lately, you'll notice a pattern. Liberals are more concerned about gays in Russia, than about economy, well being, or stability of an American economy.

Is it any wonder no one takes those clowns seriously anymore?

Oh, sure, Republicans don't quibble over unimportant nonsense... like "The War On Christmas".

Fort Wayne, maybe the people are creating a dialogue about what is happening to gays in Russia mainly because personal liberty is being threatened. It may not be the subject itself, but the principal. People are being jailed because they are protesting and there are gay couples who are having their assets seized, and now the Russian government is threatening to take the children of gay couples and put them in foster care. When any personal liberty is threatened to this hideous degree, people who believe in liberty, humanity and justice must be alarmed. If a person was not alarmed by that then my assumption would be that they are against the principles of a democratic republic. What is happening in Russia is totalitarianism, and what is happening to the gays is a symptom of that. We should be against this abuse, and we should be vocal about it.

FortWayne says

I still remember you claiming that constitution had a "right to happiness" in it. So you really are that guy, along with sbh who has "foundational ideas".

Does that make what you've said any more correct? No. In addition- yes- there is in fact parts of the constitution that guarantees the equal rights of all US citizens. As pointed out in the 14th amendment. I guess it really comes back to the question of whether or not you agree with the constitution or not.

errc says

You go to great lengths to avoid being critical of your own party,,,and your beliefs for that matter. It is ok to admit wrong doing, learn from your mistakes, and moved forward

You seem hell-bent on trying to turn the subject of this post into something different, I assume because since you pretty much lost the debate over this subject then I guess another tactic would be to bring in a totally different debate entirely. Did I say that I am totally fault-less or that the Democratic party is perfect in every way? Nope. But again- that has nothing to do with this debate and if you want to have a debate about those subjects then feel free to create a new post.

BoomAndBustCycle says

unimportant nonsense... like "The War On Christmas".

unimportant nonsense... like "The War On Christmas" is no less unimportant than "The war on Gays".

CaptainShuddup says

BoomAndBustCycle says

unimportant nonsense... like "The War On Christmas".

unimportant nonsense... like "The War On Christmas" is no less unimportant than "The war on Gays".

The Establishment Clause and the Separation of Church and State...important.

The War on Gays...important, due to the 14th amendment and basic human dignity.

Conservatives, wrong on both.

Again, would you be singing a different tune if the majority were gay and Muslim? And they treated you, based on your religious beliefs or sexuality, as a 2nd class citizen? I don't need an answer because I know what the truth is. You'd be terribly upset, as you should be. And as they should be.

Which means that you currently either have no principles or they are situational, which is as good as having none.

CL says

The Establishment Clause and the Separation of Church and State...important.

Yes but the over reach of the Liberal's assault on Christmas goes way beyond the separation of the Church and the State. They tell companies what they can display, harass home owners, hide themed decoration on the back wall of the big retail store, hidden behind a Motor Oil display. Why just the last year or two the Left, or Obama's special brand of it. Is back peddling so hard on the Retail assault on Christmas, he was practically offering a federal blow job for every Christmas present bought last year. The Left has sucked all of the fun out of Christmas so much so to the point, that Christmas comes and goes, and the Job report never budges. In spite of the official press release in December, then corrected, honest reflection posted in January. The Liberals have Retail Santa in the best Cancer treatment center in the world trying to rehabilitate his tired dead ass. While they placed Jesus in the smoking friendly Hospice retreat.

The State doesn't have the right to tell me, what I think is, and is not a sin, just because I sell the world's best Chicken Sandwich, or produce the World's best Duck Call.

Libs wrong on both counts!

CL says

Which means that you currently either have no principles or they are situational, which is as good as having none.

The very definition of social conservatism. The very anti-thesis of liberalism. Well said.

CaptainShuddup says

Yes but the over reach of the Liberal's assault on Christmas goes way beyond the separation of the Church and the State. They tell companies what they can display, harass home owners, hide themed decoration on the back wall of the big retail store, hidden behind a Motor Oil display.

Bullshit. I'm a liberal. Most of my friends are liberals. We don't argue that the state should force any private individual or store not to display any symbols. We do argue for equality. If you can put a nativity scene on your lawn, I can but a Satanic orgy on mine. Fair's fair.

CaptainShuddup says

Why just the last year or two the Left, or Obama's special brand of it.

Obama is no liberal by any means. I hardly consider Obama a leftist. If he were white and a Republican, he'd be a poster boy for the warfare industry and big business. He's right of Reagan. Hell, he's right of Nixon.

CaptainShuddup says

They tell companies what they can display, harass home owners, hide themed decoration on the back wall of the big retail store, hidden behind a Motor Oil display.

Really? Please show us where liberals or the alleged liberal Government has done any of the above?

This reminds me of people bitching about bi-lingual signs at Home Despot. Did the PC police dictate this, as the right assumes? Or is it just businesses doing what makes sense to their business.

Hispanics shop at Home Depot...a lot. Every time I've been in there in the morning there are countless maintenance, mowing service and landscaping folks buying supplies for their day's work. It makes sense to have bilingual signs or miss out on big sales.

The big businesses for a long time trod upon the sensibilities on non-Christians. Nobody has told them not to, but they've made the same calculated decision that Home Despot did. I'm sure that Christianity )and business) will survive even without having to belittle non-Christians via a de facto state religion.