patrick.net

Peter P says

Entitlemented says

And only my ATT phone connected us to the other tribes. Its like having a handheld computer in my hand.

To be fair, you were lucky. All wireless networks have strengths and weaknesses, so all carriers just suck differently.

Never looked back since I went with Republic wireless after Patrick posted a thread about it. Unlimited 3G for $25, $10 without data (still unlimited talk/text). Thanks, Patrick!

marcus says

It's smart. Some people really have a greater need for the extra room, so instead of randomly deciding who is up front, or taking volunteers to sit at the exit door, and be prepared to help out in the event of an emergency landing (where people live), they charge a small premium that people can pay for a little more comfort.

It is a no-brainer. Surprisingly, such seats are widely available. I thought they would be the first to be filled, but apparently many people don't even know of this.

Some airlines charge $50-$100 for an emergency row seat if you are physically qualified. This is an even better deal. The difference in legroom is dramatic. Imagine that on a 12-hour flight!

debyne says

marcus says

"If everyone were responsible, honest and worked hard, there would be FAR less poverty than we have today."

I disagree.

I see your point about the jobs piece, but I do think we'd have more jobs if people were more educated and driven, thereby innovating more, starting up more companies and ideas, and building the labor supply. Also, by the word "responsible" I would include poor people not having kids they can't afford and not spending beyond their means...wouldn't it help our poverty situation significantly if people had less kids and just supported themselves?

Marcus - does your lack of response to my question mean you that you agree?

mell says

Yeah, but the peasants have a choice not to follow their fellow lemmings into debt-serfdom.

Really? The average working person only has so much time to devote to ANYTHING of any depth. Job, friends, religion, family, kids, finance, politics, sports..... pretty soon you run out of hours in the day to sit and THINK about anything long-term.

I fundamentally disagree with original poster. Close relative just spent last 14 years giving his heart and soul to Coca Cola. Every time his coworkers went on vacation he'd cover for them. He kept handling MORE and MORE territory. Just before Labor Day he got notice he was terminated immediately and insurance would end at midnight the next day. Corporate America is a heartless bitch that will suck you dry.

Vicente says

mell says

Yeah, but the peasants have a choice not to follow their fellow lemmings into debt-serfdom.

Really? The average working person only has so much time to devote to ANYTHING of any depth. Job, friends, religion, family, kids, finance, politics, sports..... pretty soon you run out of hours in the day to sit and THINK about anything long-term.

I fundamentally disagree with original poster. Close relative just spent last 14 years giving his heart and soul to Coca Cola. Every time his coworkers went on vacation he'd cover for them. He kept handling MORE and MORE territory. Just before Labor Day he got notice he was terminated immediately and insurance would end at midnight the next day. Corporate America is a heartless bitch that will suck you dry.

Not disagreeing with your interpretation. Loyalty is not much valued anymore. on both sides. And it hurts both. But that has nothing to do with whether you prevent yourself from going into debt-serfdom or not. If you can't afford it, don't buy it or do it. You have a choice and your first maxime should be avoiding debt and saving capital, even in today's Fed fucked up ZIRP environment. If that means no kids then don't have any. If that means no house then don't buy one. If that means no smartphone for you and your family, then don't buy them. A good rule of thumb is never do any financing plans, as 99% of them screw you over by making you pay much more than if you had the money upfront under completely unfavorable conditions, termination fees etc. Avoid subscription/plan models at all cost whenever you can. Don't look to others belongings as a measurement for what's needed. Do not marry or partner with a woman that is not 100% on board with this, which pretty much weeds out most. Skip the wedding if you get married, use the 50K saved for bad economic times in the family. Do not buy diamond rings, complete waste of money/scam. Only buy used cars, barter if you can. Never spend more than $50 on a piece of clothing. I'm sure there's a whole book on this out there but it's probably not very popular. Anybody can do it, no exceptions (given they are healthy of course).

mell - great advice

Vicente says

I fundamentally disagree with original poster. Close relative just spent last 14 years giving his heart and soul to Coca Cola. Every time his coworkers went on vacation he'd cover for them. He kept handling MORE and MORE territory. Just before Labor Day he got notice he was terminated immediately and insurance would end at midnight the next day. Corporate America is a heartless bitch that will suck you dry.

"Bad values" are not necessarily despicable. They are just incompatible with success.

That story is unfortunate. However, the modern workplace demands soft skills.

If you cover for a coworker, you are not doing the company a favor. You are doing that coworker a favor. The thing with favors though, they have a shelf life, so you must call in the favor at an opportune time or it will expire. Sometimes, you should take vacation just to let your importance be felt. Before taking on new responsibility, you should use the opportunity to demand additional compensation. Otherwise, you are showing weakness.

Some may call the modern workplace a race to the bottom. You may as well try to win that race.

indigenous says

That there is Libertarian talk, be careful what you say lefty

Although you are a right-wing nutjob, I'm not a lefty. I have frequently repeated the distinction between liberalism and leftism and why we liberals often conflict with the left. You, like a typical conservative, simply choose never to listen.

indigenous says

There you go Thunderlips loses this round. Never question the free market...

Didn't lose. Name one airline that competes on having larger economy seats. IE in general. "Our seats are 2 inches wider with 2 inches more legroom". NOT charging people with bad knees extra to sit in the exit row - the last place they ought to be in an emergency (due to Deep Captured FAA)

Here's an example: Both Jiff and Store Brand are both peanut butters. One is slightly more expensive than the other. But you don't have to pay double the store brand for Whole Foods Daisy-pure Dance-in-Sunflowers Peanut Butter.

(Oh yes, technically you're not supposed to sit there with medical conditions, but chances are, most of the people paying extra do have medical conditions where they must have bigger seats but can't afford First Class).

Dan8267 says

Although you are a right-wing nutjob

Right wing on finance, the rest is your conjecture...Dan8267 says

You, like a typical conservative, simply choose never to listen.

Back at ya

thunderlips11 says

Didn't lose. Name one airline that competes on having larger economy

Ok then how should this be regulated into fairness?

indigenous says

Ok then how should this be regulated into fairness?

Ask the AMA and get an opinion about the minimum seat requirements to prevent DVT. Which people have died from. The numbers are most certainly higher than advertising because like a head injury, it can kill you hours later while you feel fine in the interim. And on most airline economy seats, an average male can neither stand in front of his seat, nor is there a standing areas anymore, they've been removed. I've been told to sit down when standing on an international AA flight just trying to move around a bit.

Also, Airlines are heavily, heavily, heavily government subsidized. From the airframe to the airport. Including special treatment for First Class, even though they pay the same security fee as economy.

indigenous says

Right wing on finance

The right wing is hardly financially conservative. The warfare budget unequivocally disproves that claim.

Dan8267 says

The warfare budget unequivocally disproves that claim.

Yep, and their propensity to cut taxes, then borrow and spend.

Dan8267 says

The right wing is hardly financially conservative. The warfare budget unequivocally disproves that claim.

Not with Libertarians

The true cause of poverty? The "wealth/job creators" still don't have a big enough piece of the pie.

thunderlips11 says

Ask the AMA and get an opinion about the minimum seat requirements to prevent DVT.

Would it not be more effective to have the AMA talk to the airlines about this problem? I would think they would be happy to market this to the public and their new remodeled airplanes.

BTW do you pee sitting down?

indigenous says

Dan8267 says

The right wing is hardly financially conservative. The warfare budget unequivocally disproves that claim.

Not with Libertarians

That's not an argument.

indigenous says

Would it not be more effective to have the AMA talk to the airlines about this problem?

No. As Curious talked about in another thread, Monsanto, ADM, and Lowe's Entertainment don't give a fuck that HFCS causes obesity, heart disease, and diabetes. They want to sell more HFCS; the airline wants more money per flight.

thunderlips11 says

As Curious talked about in another thread, Monsanto, ADM, and Lowe's Entertainment don't give a fuck that HFCS causes obesity, heart disease, and diabetes.

What does that have to do with airlines?

But lets not forget that the only reason they use HFCS is because of tariffs on imported sugar which enables ADM to coerce more corporate welfare than anyone save maybe Boeing or Lockheed.

Dan8267 says

That's not an argument.

You do realize I have been a registered Libertarian for over 30 years?

indigenous says

What does that have to do with airlines?

You said the AMA should talk to the Airlines. I'm telling you that would be as effective as having various medical and health groups talk with HFCS providers. Making carb addicts is their primary business model.

indigenous says

HFCS is because of tariffs on imported sugar

Yep. Deep Capture.

thunderlips11 says

You said the AMA should talk to the Airlines. I'm telling you that would be as effective as having various medical and health groups talk with HFCS providers. Making carb addicts is their primary business model.

Sorry to hear about your condition.

The last time I checked the customer has more pull than HFCS providers.

thunderlips11 says

indigenous says

There you go Thunderlips loses this round. Never question the free market...

Didn't lose. Name one airline that competes on having larger economy seats. IE in general. "Our seats are 2 inches wider with 2 inches more legroom". NOT charging people with bad knees extra to sit in the exit row - the last place they ought to be in an emergency (due to Deep Captured FAA)

To you as a consumer, they do. You can consider only airlines with extra-legroom seats priced with the surcharge. Since you do not have to consider the regular economy seats as an option, just pretend they do not exist.

By the way, who cares what the cabin is called? The new Economy Plus/Comfort/Extra/Select seats are better than the old economy seats. The Premium Economy seats nowadays almost rivals the old business class seats.

I have vivid memory about economy seats in the "good" old days. They are not that great. I will pick the new premium economy any day. Guess what? On an inflation adjusted basis, I am paying less too.

Sometime I wonder how airlines are managing such low prices when oil price is so much higher now.

.Peter P says

By the way, who cares what the cabin is called? The new Economy Plus/Comfort/Extra/Select seats are better than the old economy seats. The Premium Economy seats nowadays almost rivals the old business class seats.

Yep, it's the old, make the main product shittier but offer expensive options.

Economy Seats used to be 19" and over even to 22", then 18.5", now they are size zero model sized 17". It races downwards as newer planes offer smaller seats at the airlines' request, and older models are refurbished to make the product shittier. Many "extra" economy class seats might give you a few inches of legroom, but not wider seats.

Meanwhile the average demographic in the US is getting older and chubbier. Some customer response!

I remember all passengers got hot meals. That's extra even for "Economy Comfort" these days.

Peter P says

Sometime I wonder how airlines are managing such low prices when oil price is so much higher now.

Finally got new aircraft - doubtlessly heavily subsidized for both the buyer and the seller, some of whom are moving to China anyway.

The new engines and airframes are more efficient.

thunderlips11 says

Economy Seats used to be 19" and over, then 18.5", now they are size zero model sized 17". Many "extra" economy class seats might give you a few inches of legroom, but not wider seats.

Can you explain to me how they could possibly have six-across 19-inch seats on a Boeing 707? It has the exact same cross-section as the ubiquitous 737.

Nowadays, true Premium Economy seats are about 19-inch wide. On an inflation-adjusted basis, even after the 80% premium over coach, they are still cheaper than the "good old" economy seats before deregulation.

thunderlips11 says

I remember all passengers got hot meals. That's extra even for "Economy Comfort" these days.

Yes, that is a bit sad. I doubt you can even pay for them if you choose to.

But I seriously did not care for those so-called "hot" meals in coach class. They still sucked.

Peter P says

Can you explain to me how they could possibly have six-across 19-inch seats on a Boeing 707?

You mean one of the first commercial jets that hasn't been in production since Jimmy Carter and isn't flying much anymore?

Or the original 737, one of the most popular commercial aircraft ever made, which had 100 seats when first rolled out in 1967. Today's versions and interior remodeling has 200.

Airlines are reducing economy seats and making way for more expensive seats. It's kind of a reflection of the USA's GINI. A shift of focus from Joe Middle Class to luxury and the growing number of trust fund babies.

thunderlips11 says

Or the original 737, which had 100 seats. Today's versions have 200.

The highly-popular 737 has grown in LENGTH. The cross-section did not change. The number of seats per row did not change.

Seat Width is up to the airline.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/11/07/travel/feeling-cramped-battle-airline-seat/

"Seats are getting smaller and smaller as airlines look to squeeze revenue from their economy seats," noted Ranga Natarajan, the senior product manager at SeatGuru, a website that rates the best and worst seats on nearly every plane in the industry.

In the 1960s, a seat width of 17 inches was standard, and for a period in the 1990s and early 2000s, that grew to 18.5 inches with the introduction of the Boeing 777 and Airbus A380.

Recently, however, airlines been filling planes to a capacity that Natarajan calls "historic proportions."

"What our customers haven't asked for is an arbitrary, self-serving seat-width standard."
Kate Bergman, Boeing

"Airlines used to fly at 70% capacity. Now, that number is closer to 80 to 85%, which means every middle seat is occupied, so the elbow room just isn't there," he said.

Peter P says

The highly-popular 737 has grown in LENGTH. The cross-section did not change. The number of seats per row did not change.

SOME of the models are lengthier. Other models have just had the legroom removed, seats narrowed, standing areas removed, etc.

I was using the good old 707 as the gold standard. Even the glamorous Pan Am, with their girdle-wearing stewardesses, have six-across economy seats.

http://www.everythingpanam.com/

thunderlips11 says

Other models have just had the legroom removed, seats narrowed, standing areas removed, etc.

The six-across model for narrow-bodies has not changed for decades. So the seat width pretty much remained the same. In fact, if you fly on a newer A320, you do get slightly more cabin width for the same number of seats across.

thunderlips11 says

Seat Width is up to the airline.

Yes, there is more flexibility on a wide-body. Then again, long-haul airlines are more likely to offer a true Premium Economy cabin. It is well worth the 30%-80% premium.

Note that SeatGuru talks about the average seat width. The introduction of tightly-packed low-cost airlines would have skewed the result. I use that site extensively to find good seats. You should do the same.

Peter P says

The introduction of tightly-packed low-cost airlines would have skewed the result.

Sounds like somebody like JetBlue will see this marketing niche, with the boomers getting older and all...

Good article showing why/how air fares have dropped so much over the last 30 years.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/02/how-airline-ticket-prices-fell-50-in-30-years-and-why-nobody-noticed/273506/

It confirmed my suspicion that on an inflation-adjusted basis, the cost of an economy seat 30 years ago is about the same as that of a business-class seat nowadays.

debyne says

Good article showing why/how air fares have dropped so much over the last 30 years.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/02/how-airline-ticket-prices-fell-50-in-30-years-and-why-nobody-noticed/273506/

And legroom, food and beverage, waiting times,permitted luggage, freebies, etc. has also decreased.

Most of the savings was due to Airlines scrapping 40 year old planes and/or upgrading engines.

Manufactured Goods and the services that use them staying the same price or even falling after inflation is called "Normal". Take a look at computers or cars. However, car makers aren't removing features and options to maintain profitability; on the contrary, they are getting cheaper with more extras simultaneously - even in the bottom of the market.

Have subsidies for airports and airlines and aircraft builders (many now going to China despite the gifts of billions in subsidies and breaks given over the past decades by taxpayers) decreased after inflation - or increased?

Airlines are America's Train System and should be regarded as such, they're certainly heavily taxpayer supported. As a tradeoff, reasonable comfort should be expected.

thunderlips11 says

they're certainly heavily taxpayer supported.

Citation please

By the way, premium seats are also use to reward frequent flyers. The current cabin layout is a reflection of how airlines try to maximize profit. As a result, the consumer also has more choices. A win-win in my book.