patrick.net

.Peter P says

By the way, who cares what the cabin is called? The new Economy Plus/Comfort/Extra/Select seats are better than the old economy seats. The Premium Economy seats nowadays almost rivals the old business class seats.

Yep, it's the old, make the main product shittier but offer expensive options.

Economy Seats used to be 19" and over even to 22", then 18.5", now they are size zero model sized 17". It races downwards as newer planes offer smaller seats at the airlines' request, and older models are refurbished to make the product shittier. Many "extra" economy class seats might give you a few inches of legroom, but not wider seats.

Meanwhile the average demographic in the US is getting older and chubbier. Some customer response!

I remember all passengers got hot meals. That's extra even for "Economy Comfort" these days.

Peter P says

Sometime I wonder how airlines are managing such low prices when oil price is so much higher now.

Finally got new aircraft - doubtlessly heavily subsidized for both the buyer and the seller, some of whom are moving to China anyway.

The new engines and airframes are more efficient.

thunderlips11 says

Economy Seats used to be 19" and over, then 18.5", now they are size zero model sized 17". Many "extra" economy class seats might give you a few inches of legroom, but not wider seats.

Can you explain to me how they could possibly have six-across 19-inch seats on a Boeing 707? It has the exact same cross-section as the ubiquitous 737.

Nowadays, true Premium Economy seats are about 19-inch wide. On an inflation-adjusted basis, even after the 80% premium over coach, they are still cheaper than the "good old" economy seats before deregulation.

thunderlips11 says

I remember all passengers got hot meals. That's extra even for "Economy Comfort" these days.

Yes, that is a bit sad. I doubt you can even pay for them if you choose to.

But I seriously did not care for those so-called "hot" meals in coach class. They still sucked.

Peter P says

Can you explain to me how they could possibly have six-across 19-inch seats on a Boeing 707?

You mean one of the first commercial jets that hasn't been in production since Jimmy Carter and isn't flying much anymore?

Or the original 737, one of the most popular commercial aircraft ever made, which had 100 seats when first rolled out in 1967. Today's versions and interior remodeling has 200.

Airlines are reducing economy seats and making way for more expensive seats. It's kind of a reflection of the USA's GINI. A shift of focus from Joe Middle Class to luxury and the growing number of trust fund babies.

thunderlips11 says

Or the original 737, which had 100 seats. Today's versions have 200.

The highly-popular 737 has grown in LENGTH. The cross-section did not change. The number of seats per row did not change.

Seat Width is up to the airline.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/11/07/travel/feeling-cramped-battle-airline-seat/

"Seats are getting smaller and smaller as airlines look to squeeze revenue from their economy seats," noted Ranga Natarajan, the senior product manager at SeatGuru, a website that rates the best and worst seats on nearly every plane in the industry.

In the 1960s, a seat width of 17 inches was standard, and for a period in the 1990s and early 2000s, that grew to 18.5 inches with the introduction of the Boeing 777 and Airbus A380.

Recently, however, airlines been filling planes to a capacity that Natarajan calls "historic proportions."

"What our customers haven't asked for is an arbitrary, self-serving seat-width standard."
Kate Bergman, Boeing

"Airlines used to fly at 70% capacity. Now, that number is closer to 80 to 85%, which means every middle seat is occupied, so the elbow room just isn't there," he said.

Peter P says

The highly-popular 737 has grown in LENGTH. The cross-section did not change. The number of seats per row did not change.

SOME of the models are lengthier. Other models have just had the legroom removed, seats narrowed, standing areas removed, etc.

I was using the good old 707 as the gold standard. Even the glamorous Pan Am, with their girdle-wearing stewardesses, have six-across economy seats.

http://www.everythingpanam.com/

thunderlips11 says

Other models have just had the legroom removed, seats narrowed, standing areas removed, etc.

The six-across model for narrow-bodies has not changed for decades. So the seat width pretty much remained the same. In fact, if you fly on a newer A320, you do get slightly more cabin width for the same number of seats across.

thunderlips11 says

Seat Width is up to the airline.

Yes, there is more flexibility on a wide-body. Then again, long-haul airlines are more likely to offer a true Premium Economy cabin. It is well worth the 30%-80% premium.

Note that SeatGuru talks about the average seat width. The introduction of tightly-packed low-cost airlines would have skewed the result. I use that site extensively to find good seats. You should do the same.

Peter P says

The introduction of tightly-packed low-cost airlines would have skewed the result.

Sounds like somebody like JetBlue will see this marketing niche, with the boomers getting older and all...

Good article showing why/how air fares have dropped so much over the last 30 years.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/02/how-airline-ticket-prices-fell-50-in-30-years-and-why-nobody-noticed/273506/

It confirmed my suspicion that on an inflation-adjusted basis, the cost of an economy seat 30 years ago is about the same as that of a business-class seat nowadays.

debyne says

Good article showing why/how air fares have dropped so much over the last 30 years.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/02/how-airline-ticket-prices-fell-50-in-30-years-and-why-nobody-noticed/273506/

And legroom, food and beverage, waiting times,permitted luggage, freebies, etc. has also decreased.

Most of the savings was due to Airlines scrapping 40 year old planes and/or upgrading engines.

Manufactured Goods and the services that use them staying the same price or even falling after inflation is called "Normal". Take a look at computers or cars. However, car makers aren't removing features and options to maintain profitability; on the contrary, they are getting cheaper with more extras simultaneously - even in the bottom of the market.

Have subsidies for airports and airlines and aircraft builders (many now going to China despite the gifts of billions in subsidies and breaks given over the past decades by taxpayers) decreased after inflation - or increased?

Airlines are America's Train System and should be regarded as such, they're certainly heavily taxpayer supported. As a tradeoff, reasonable comfort should be expected.

thunderlips11 says

they're certainly heavily taxpayer supported.

Citation please

By the way, premium seats are also use to reward frequent flyers. The current cabin layout is a reflection of how airlines try to maximize profit. As a result, the consumer also has more choices. A win-win in my book.

2013: Boeing gets "Biggest State subsidy in US History"
http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepolitics/2013/11/11/boeing-biggest-state-subsidy-in-u-s-history/

"Essential Air Services" - mostly to small cities in Red Areas, btw.
http://wyofile.com/gregory_nickerson/subsidair-essential-air-service-subsidy-great-lakes-airlines/

~$19B for the FAA

http://www.dot.gov/budget/2012/fy2012budgethighlights.pdf

Jet fuel is taxed at about 22 cents - unless it is used by commercial airlines, who only pay a 4 cent tax. Kerosene not used for jet fuel is taxed at about 25 cents.
http://taxmap.ntis.gov/taxmap/pubs/p510-008.htm

I wonder how much of the subsidies are absorbed by the unions.

Newer airlines like Virgin America and JetBlue are providing good service at a competitive price.

If I was going to bring Boeing into this I would talk about the EX IM Bank.

EAS with 38 planes does not show up on the radar

The gas thing is not small, although your link is busted at the upper one.

But I will bet it is small compared to what ADM gets.

At any rate I say get rid of all of them. At the state level I suppose that is hard because the states have to compete with one another to keep the tax base. But at that point it only affects that state, if too onerous the masses vote with their feet.

indigenous says

Dan8267 says

That's not an argument.

You do realize I have been a registered Libertarian for over 30 years?

That is also not an argument.

Dan8267 says

That is also not an argument.

In that case splain yourself.

indigenous says

Dan8267 says

That is also not an argument.

In that case splain yourself.

Honey, I don't even know what you're asking clarification for.

Dan8267 says

Honey, I don't even know what you're asking clarification for.

The only time I see your kind of hubris is when it is accompanied by a lot of ignorance.

indigenous says

Dan8267 says

Honey, I don't even know what you're asking clarification for.

The only time I see your kind of hubris is when it is accompanied by a lot of ignorance.

Ah, so you have no questions and just want to be a dick. Please, continue to vent your sexual frustrations.

300 comments in 5 days. Exceeded my expectations.

I may or may not be arrogant, but you are wrong on a great many issues and calling me arrogant does not change that fact.

Dan8267 says

but you are wrong on a great many issues and calling me arrogant does not change that fact.

E.G.?

To be fair, the two statements are not mutually exclusive.

Nor does either imply that I am. The later just suggests that if I am an arrogant ass, I'm an honest one.

I will concede that I have little tolerance for stupidity and so I may seem to be an ass to people like Crazy and Indigenous.

Ah, more trite cliches with nothing to back up that they apply to the one they are being flung to.

Dan8267 says

more trite cliches

There you go

Call it Crazy says

The problem with narcissists is, they don't see the reflection in the "mirror"...

There you go...

http://www.youtube.com/embed/lhKECC4f_XY

I calling doucebaggery she started the video with "Hey Guys!"

Peter P says

The highly-popular 737 has grown in LENGTH. The cross-section did not change. The number of seats per row did not change.

And they fly as few of them as they can.

I recall in the 90's how nearly every plane had some EMPTY ROWS. Parents with "lap kids" had good odds of finding a free seat to put Junior into.

I can't recall the last time I didn't hear a call for "this flight is full, please some of you check your bags at the gate". But it's certainly more than 5 years now.

My highly popular penis has grown in length. The cross-section did not change, but the number of women bobbing on it did seem to increase.

Vicente says

Peter P says

The highly-popular 737 has grown in LENGTH. The cross-section did not change. The number of seats per row did not change.

And they fly as few of them as they can.

I recall in the 90's how nearly every plane had some EMPTY ROWS. Parents with "lap kids" had good odds of finding a free seat to put Junior into.

I can't recall the last time I didn't hear a call for "this flight is full, please some of you check your bags at the gate". But it's certainly more than 5 years now.

Yeah, they are doing a pretty good job forecasting demand and optimizing fare structure.

On some routes, you may still see empty seats. Just a few years ago, we flew JFK to Venice (Italy). The wide-body jet had maybe 50 people on it. My wife and I each got a whole row to ourselves. That was the only time I regretted having paid for extra legroom. :-)

debyne says

My highly popular penis has grown in length. The cross-section did not change, but the number of women bobbing on it did seem to increase.

That's pretty funny. I don't know how you got 2 dislikes.

But please, check your baggage at the gate before you climb on board.

thunderlips11 says

debyne says

My highly popular penis has grown in length. The cross-section did not change, but the number of women bobbing on it did seem to increase.

That's pretty funny. I don't know how you got 2 dislikes.

But please, check your baggage at the gate before you climb on board.

Thanks...I'm glad at least somebody liked it. Too many haters out there.

debyne says

Thanks...I'm glad at least somebody liked it. Too many haters out there.

Just see how many likes and dislikes I got on this thread.

If everyone likes you it means you are not successful enough.