patrick.net

A true feminist would support legalized prostitution though.

The Original Bankster says

American women are unbelievably spoiled

Did you even bother to read my entire post? I suppose I really showed my spoiled colors when my husband lost everything, I got a job, put my twin two-year-olds in daycare, moved to a new town, and lived on nothing so we could fight a hospital.

The Original Bankster says

Several graduate degrees?

Not several. Two. I have an MBA and an MS in accounting. The Original Bankster says

and when your fun at graduate school is over, it's time to have kids!

Yes, I had boatloads of fun. I worked through my entire education. My first job was at 16 and I continued working until age 33 when I had my kids. I worked full time and went to school full time. Fun for me was getting a good night's rest. Though I stopped working when I had my kids, I went back to work at age 35 when we had our lawsuit against the hospital. And yes, it was very painful for me to leave my children. As for just deciding to have kids, unfortunately, that was not the case either. It took me many miscarriages over a couple of years to get there. It was enormously hard (especially given what we went through to have our children) for me to put them into daycare to fight against something that never should have happened to us. Earning extra money was easy. Giving up those precious years with my kids hurts me to this day.

Doubtless, your hatred of women makes it impossible for you to register information that contradicts your foreordained conclusion.

Your cluelessness is beyond sad. But perhaps those telepathic powers you claim to believe in already warned you that I was going to say that.

Peter P says

The right kind of feminism will drive us forward. It will be one that supports independent thinking and empowerment, not one that chases equality. Sexes, or any kind of dichotomies, can never be equal. However, a diversity of opinions and ideas will make our lives better.

I went from accepting it totally- to this stance for a while. This like - well we need a little bit- right?

WRONG. There never was any 'inequality', women had it good, now they are just 100% parasites and eventually the entire thing will collapse in on itself because it's extended to every part of life ranging from university to workplace. Look around, who are the unemployed? is it women? no it isn't. It's universally men who are unemployed because they have no educational opportunities and even less employment opportunities, and due to women having little if any real input into the workplace, all of our production is crippled and broken so we buttress it with debt and other unsustainable programs.

Feminism is the last stage in a democratic system like ours because it will always have political support despite the fact that it's completely killing us.

Peter P says

A true feminist would support legalized prostitution though.

you will not find any principle in feminism. Generally women are not interested in principle at all. So consistency is neither a requirement nor an expectation- the only expectation is that the entire program will progress taking money from whatever group doesnt manage to defend themselves legally and give more to women. Already American women are practically intolerable to practically everyone, in their minds though they are victims in need of even more reparations. This mentality simply will not end until the entire system collapses in on itself.

We've had this sort of thing before. In the USSR.

turtledove says

Did you even bother

shaming

im a victim

you hate women

you are clueless

heard it all before... here's the worlds smallest violin playing for Turtledove the Accountant/MBA who has had it so darn rough.

the difference between Turtledove's crop of American Women and the latest ones is the younger ones are starting to experience serious blowback.

they killed off all the men. There aren't any left. They're all unemployed, incapable of supporting a family. So the girls spend their 20s dreaming- some guy is going to show up- their mothers offer them emotional support- any day now, its going to happen. Look at turtledove, she married a man who already had a child with someone else. Even after her glorious MBA and accounting degree- couldnt even find a totally uncommitted male. What does that say?

you have to learn how to read between the lines of her story, but the facts of it show through- of course she's developed a story line that makes her sound like a glorious hero.

the ones who are smart are doing what Rin does.

The Original Bankster says

its a completely different world were living in and Boomers are seriously out of touch with it.

It's not just the boomers I think the Most Gen X'ers feel like the world they grew up in just disappeared one night while they were sleeping. There was no official announcement, and for the last decade at least. We've just been wondering... "What in the fuck just happened?!?"

I blame technology, though with out it. I would still be on my hands and knees schlepping carpet, and living hand to mouth. Bound by the whims of sporadic retail spurts, like tax returns and the holiday season, to realize any real money in the trade.
I used to live for a reasons for people to buy. Like bad tropical weather to create flood repair.

We could not afford the latest trendy must have device, like even the poorest of the poor today can manage. But at least we could buy enough groceries to make a chicken dinner for a family of 4 to 5 with just 5 bucks.

It's a different world, and to suggest that the boomers created Justin Beiber, virtual global economies and crappy music and even a crappier format to deliver that content, is just crazy talk.

CaptainShuddup says

but you might end up in Jail and an embarrassing picture on Mugshots.com. Which along with many other reasons, is why I don't pick up Ho's.

You're talking strictly about the USA and thus, neither you nor I will partake in it, within our not-so-free country.

Montreal in not in the USA. It's legal there, in outcall mode. Also, in Australia/New Zealand, there are 4/5 star brothels with the decor, entertainment systems, and VIP rooms.

The Original Bankster says

so what they currently have are men who are mostly confused- they dont know what is the best thing to do and are generally bewildered, and those who are a bit smarter who are cynical and opportunistic(Rin).

I'd say that many of my peers have a type of Stockholm Syndrome, in which they're living under a state of house arrest, in their own homes and thus, need to find a way of dealing with their complete lack of control over their lives.

turtledove says

you will ever need that kind of support from a life partner, and perhaps you won't. You're around 30, right? I'm 43, so we're not exactly a million years apart. Let me tell you... Life is long.

Mid-30s, however, I can say this ... a lot of married men I know, look towards their parents, uncles/aunts, siblings, or even childhood friends for emotional support, more than their spouses these days. One of my friend's mothers actually called me once and commended me for helping her son, much more than his wife, when he was facing a lawsuit.

I believe that once a man crosses the age of 29, it's time to start to write marriage off, as a working arrangement in the years/decades ahead. That so-called right person (let's call this the proverbial soulmate), got on another vessel, between ages 18 and 29.

Afterwards, I'll have to agree with much of what Bankster says, be wary and don't accept the so-called good will of those who're really Alanis Morrisette, once you peel off that first layer of the onion.

The Original Bankster says

turtledove says

Did you even bother

shaming

im a victim

you hate women

you are clueless

heard it all before... here's the worlds smallest violin playing for Turtledove the Accountant/MBA who has had it so darn rough.

Honey, you are altogether missing the point. This was not about "Turtledove the Accountant/MBA who has had it so darn rough," this was an attempt to illustrate that there are benefits to long term relationships. One of those benefits is that you have a partner who will support you in a way that you will NEVER find in a casual relationship.

The point of my post was to share with Rin a real life example of things that can happen that might make him really glad he has a life partner. The point of my post was to offer an alternative view. I spent a lot of time on it because I consider him worth my time.

Unlike you, I don't see the same kind of irreversible anger in Rin. I think Rin is a good guy at heart who, perhaps, has had some unfortunate experiences with relationships. Whether Rin lives the rest of his life with hookers or finds himself a more substantial partner, I just don't see him seething vitriol. Unfortunately, I see that from you.

How about this? You be nice to me under the theory of "keeping your enemies close." You might find that I'm not actually the evil creature you fear so much.

turtledove says

Do you really think your hookers will be there for you?

I think you know perfectly well that I pay 'em to go away.

Rin says

turtledove says

Do you really think your hookers will be there for you?

I think you know perfectly well that I pay 'em to go away.

Yeah, but when that life-hiccup occurs, you might not have the money. I was basically your age when the SHTF. The more money you make, the more is at stake.... and the more ruthless the people around you. I don't wish what happened to us to happen to anyone. But shit happens without warning. Its times like that you learn who your true friends (and family for that matter) are. Unfortunately, they won't all make the cut.

Clearly there are no guarantees with any relationship. Even yours. Take away the money and your relationships will prove as evanescent as steam.

CaptainShuddup says

It's a different world, and to suggest that the boomers created Justin Beiber, virtual global economies and crappy music and even a crappier format to deliver that content, is just crazy talk.

Congratulations.

And blaming "libruls" is equally silly.

turtledove says

Its times like that you learn who your true friends (and family for that matter) are. Unfortunately, they won't all make the cut.

Clearly there are no guarantees with any relationship. Even yours. Take away the money and your relationships will prove as evanescent as steam.

One of my friend's mothers actually called me once and commended me for helping her son, much more than his wife, when he was facing a lawsuit.

BTW, other women have also divorced their men when the SHTF.

The marriages which I'd seen work, tended to around ppl with very similar backgrounds & viewpoints, both Vietnamese-Americans, both Orthodox Jewish, both Jehovah's Witnesses, and so on.

On the whole, we have a society with a 50+% divorce rate and somehow, your story is suppose to be encouraging, against a background of that?

Rin says

I believe that once a man crosses the age of 29, it's time to start to write marriage off

You might find this hard to believe, I had the same thought at around age 27. I really didn't care if I ever got married, however, I knew that I had to have a child. I seriously considered a sperm bank to be a viable option. I had a great job with onsite daycare. I could make it work. I grew up a kid of multiple divorces, so I had no Pollyanna ideas about marriage. When I was 30, I met my husband and that was the end of that. I'm not sure what changed my mind, exactly. He was just different.

turtledove says

Unlike you, I don't see the same kind of irreversible anger in Rin. I think Rin is a good guy at heart who, perhaps, has had some unfortunate experiences with relationships. Whether Rin lives the rest of his life with hookers or finds himself a more substantial partner, I just don't see him seething vitriol. Unfortunately, I see that from you.

its the only way women react to my points. they aren't 'vitriol' (is that some elitist way of saying 'hatred' - condescending and distracting all at once), did you learn that in your SAT class turtledove? You dont have me convinced you have a healthy relationship. Your life sounds like a fairly confusing ego trip culminating in ruining a doctors first family and starting one of your own, probably out of some kind of desperation. It's not an uncommon pattern in the category of women you are in.

there's a lot of misunderstanding these days about how male-female relationships work. They aren't bilateral as you like to present them as. Women dont give back what you give them. Its very important to understand that man and woman are not equal. The natural relationship between man and woman is exactly as that of a mother to a child - one gives the other takes. Once you understand this basic fact of nature completely - your attitude adjusts. You no longer see women they way feminism wants you to see them - you see them for what they really are - a function of nature and the primary way this planet remains populated. It's possible for men to opt out of this, personally I dont exactly commend Rin for his choice and I dont do this myself. I dont see you as the worst of all possibilities, at least you HAD children. Women today actually believe that men will remain a persistent fixture and means of support in their life without even having children. They just get to complain and the man 'provides'. I have several friends who are few years into relationships with this sort of basis- I dont expect them to last. Most likely the woman will trump up some BS about 'not loving him anymore' when he starts to think about economizing and making his life less stressful and less draining ie. giving less into her demands.

In that sense, no Im not redeemable. Im the only one who here who even has the possibility of KNOWING what women are, thus I am the only one who might even have the possibility of loving them. Everyone else is in a delusional state. Rin is progressed, he sees and accepts the facts that most men dont, but is stuck in more deep seated patterns that remain in the hormones and such. Back to Yoga, there is lots of writings about this and what is the nature of the sex drive, etc. It's very interesting, I recommend it to Rin especially.

Women invented this notion of 'love'. They use it to explain every ridiculous action they make. If they break up a doctors family, it's ok as long as it's 'love'. She can marry a convicted murderer and it's fine as long as it's 'love'. So be careful when you read and parse this term 'love', it's a most confusing word. Seems also Rin has caught onto this.

Rin says

The marriages which I'd seen work, tended to around ppl with very similar backgrounds & viewpoints, both Vietnamese-Americans, both Orthodox Jewish, both Jehovah's Witnesses, and so on.

On the whole, we have a society with a 50+% divorce rate and somehow, your story is suppose to be encouraging, against a background of that?

I don't know I tend to enjoy the freedom to spend my time toiling away in my Office/Studio/Mancave programming, playing music, recording, or having civil discord with the folks on Patnet.
While my wife toils away on the opposite side of the house, sewing, crafting, watching Latin Soap Novellas, Skyping her family back Peru.

Then we get either get hungry or bored and call each other ask if we want to go out to eat, listen to live music go to the casino.

I think compatibility is over rated. People that like the same things, run into the same problems as people who don't. It's just as easy to meet someone else while doing the same thing with you, then grow apart. As it is for couples who the only thing they have in common, is they enjoy going out together, and generally agree on outside activities. But at home, were as far away from each other's hair as we can be.

turtledove says

I really didn't care if I ever got married, however, I knew that I had to have a child.

AKA babies rabies.

women never admit to their desperation. 'Im not looking for a boyfriend'. I didnt want to get married, just happened to find a doctor who already had a child!

Rin says

50+% divorce rate

And that means that half of them work out... and you could be one of them.

You're right about the backgrounds and viewpoints. I think that the way each person solves problems is incredibly telling about how likely a relationship is to be successful. Though our initial reactions to things are different (husband's more thoughtful; I'm more reactive) our objectives and solutions are VERY similar. We approach problems the same way.

A successful marriage, like many other things, relies greatly on expectations management.

turtledove says

And that means that half of them work out... and you could be one of them.

someone should do a statistics study on divorce rate in Rin's/Turtledove's demographic.

remember that 50% divorce rate factors in religious types, Asian/Hispanic immigrants who have much lower divorce rates and are in very large numbers in the US today. Also the poorer people are, less commonly they divorce for practical reasons. Thus ppl in Rin's/TDs demographic probably have divorce rate of above 80%.

It's going to take a crisis before we finally admit, and act on this crisis in gender relations. Of course women dont want to admit it's catastrophic, in the same way the beneficiaries of government bailouts dont want to admit there is a major problem.

it is happening though. Im seeing more and more opinions bubbling up on the internet that are critical of feminism.

so you're rolling the dice maybe Rin you get to be in the 20% of non-divorced but perpetually unhappy men who stay together for the sake of the children?

Peter P says

A successful marriage, like many other things, relies greatly on expectations management.

go and tell one of these tarts on a college campus they need to adjust their expectations.

see what happens.

now imagine you are a young man and this girl has a choice, go on a date with mr. lower expectations or go to a keg party and get slammed by the local drunk male population. dont you dare cast aspersions either, that's 'slut shaming' - it's practically illegal today. We even have Slut Walks to cement the idea in everyone's heads that a girl who has been inseminated by over 100 guys is no less desirable than a virgin.

Feminism is promoting a viewpoint that is completely irrational and ultimately seeks to meet it's expectations through the tax base and social engineering efforts.

turtledove says

in says

50+% divorce rate

And that means that half of them work out... and you could be one of them.

My sister and her husband will have a successful marriage in the sense that he doesn't want to be seen as divorced. Instead, he'll be dead of a coronary or stroke in 15 years because my sister has driven him crazy & you can tell that he's rapidly aged, so while he's only a decade older than me, he looks like a junior senior citizen, ripe for a rest home or hospice center. So yes, even among the successful ones, it doesn't mean that it's a happy and functional household.

The Original Bankster says

Thus ppl in Rin's/TDs demographic probably have divorce rate of above 80%.

I believe that this is correct, so the chance of ending like my sister and her husband, a dysfunctional yet "successful marriage", is still within that elite 20 percentile. In all honestly, I believe that the actual, happily married persons are a real minority in this country.

CaptainShuddup says

Skyping her family back Peru.

Captain, the dynamics of a South American household are completely different from the USA.

Rin says

My sister and her husband will have a successfu marriage in the sense that he doesn't want to be seen as divorced. Instead, he'll be dead of a coronary or stroke in 15 years because my sister has driven him crazy & you can tell that he's rapidly aged, so while he's only a decade older than me, he looks like a junior senior citizen, ripe for a rest home or hospice center. So yes, even among the successful ones, it doesn't mean that it's a happy and functional household.

same with my brother. he looks like complete shit. for what? so he can support her obtaining a law degree. some guys are just stupid i guess and they dont see reality. hormones are a very strong drug. they eventually wear off and youre left thinking- why on earth did I do this in the first place?

The Original Bankster says

so you're rolling the dice maybe Rin you get to be in the 20% of non-divorced but perpetually unhappy men who stay together for the sake of the children?

Yep, that's my sister and brother-in-law, exactly.

And for him, it's also pseudo-religious. He doesn't believe in divorce so he'll drink himself to death than to seek freedom from it.

Rin says

Captain, the dynamics of a South American household are completely different from the USA.

South Americans and Asians still have a lot of these patterns intact that are needed for a healthy marriage. Now adays Asian girls especially will spend a few years acting Western and maybe even slutting around until they give in and just be the wife their parents are expecting them to be.

The Western Woman OTOH marches full speed into a self-created world of selfishness, insanity and waste. God help you if you are hitched to one of them. They have no shame or sense of obligation.

Rin says

And for him, it's also pseudo-religious. He doesn't believe in divorce so he'll drink himself to death than to seek freedom from it.

the writing is on the wall for those who are willing to read it. dont get married.

ever notice how it's always WOMEN that are reassuring us it's a great idea? the men generally range from ambivalent to critical of marriage. TD's long story is not the first I've read, I think they tell these stories partly to see how believable they are- it's a behavior pattern for women I've seen a lot. Women talk incessantly- this is partly why they are testing out their story line to see if the shit sticks to the wall.

turtledove says

And that means that half of them work out... and you could be one of them.

Agreed. The problem is though that if it doesn't work out he may have his career/wealth destroyed, esp. if he's really at the receiving end of a hedge-fund buyout. While I support legalization of prostitution (agree with Peter P), I traditionally date and enjoy it. Getting married though is a whole different ball-park these days. More and more men are dragging their feet, and the vast majority of divorces are initiated by women who have no skin in the game - I don't see that trend changing. Maybe if they get rid of no-fault divorce marriage may get a boost again.

Rin says

In all honestly, I believe that the actual, happily married persons are a real minority in this country.

ive concluded it's not RARE, it's impossible. I've noticed the few that appear happy on the outside always have some selfish reason for appearing happy- usually they're the 'IT' couple, the one eveyrone looks to for inspiration, even though the husband might be a secret pedophile or something.

modern marriage is just misery. I seriously get my inspiration from reading the writings of Yogis who explain the nature of women and the true path to happiness. I gave up on marriage a long time ago, not because women didnt like me as TD would like to suggest- quite the opposite- I was such a popular item I got to see how women really act when they are motivated, and it turned me off to commitment permanently. If you're willing to watch them and observe you will see what motivates them. They are slaves to their instincts primarily - and so are men, but as the yogis say men are more rational and have more of an ability to rise above all this. You dont have to be a servant of nature.

mell says

Maybe if they get rid of no-fault divorce marriage may get a boost again.

Germany has better policy in that regard. It's very difficult and costly to get a divorce.

turtledove says

Rin says

I believe that once a man crosses the age of 29, it's time to start to write marriage off

You might find this hard to believe, I had the same thought at around age 27

Here's the thing, your biological clock is different than mine. When you'd crossed your line, starting a family and optimizing that goal, was priority one. How you went about, well ... I'll let you and Bankster duke that one out.

When I'd crossed 29, I'd become emotional independent, meaning that my homelife was not validated by the companionship of a female counterpart. I was fine, with or without someone. So what happened is that I'd started eating better, working out, doing martial arts and other eastern Tai Chi/Qigong stuff and that transition period into my mid-30s, occurred without a so-called life partner. So when my last relationship with the Canadian, aka Alanis Morrrisette, ended a few years back, it was kinda over for me. I'd built a life and one on my own. Granted, I don't feel like a frontiersman of yesteryear's century but from a particular perspective, it certainly feels that way.

this is how she would like to imagine the situation, but the fact is when a woman turns 27- she panics. Her story is not reliable in the least, when you hear it from the mouth of a women it's always painted with this brush, the same brush they will judiciously paint you as 'no longer love him' or 'loser' when they no longer find you of any use.

The Original Bankster says

its the only way women react to my points. they aren't 'vitriol' (is that some elitist way of saying 'hatred' - condescending and distracting all at once), did you learn that in your SAT class turtledove?

Vitriol is "cruel and bitter criticism." You have to admit, it's an accurate word choice. Why does my education bother you, exactly?

The Original Bankster says

You dont have me convinced you have a healthy relationship. Your life sounds like a fairly confusing ego trip culminating in ruining a doctors first family and starting one of your own, probably out of some kind of desperation. It's not an uncommon pattern in the category of women you are in.

You understand that these are things you have made up, right? I met my husband after he and his wife split up. Not that it matters, but she is the one who asked for the divorce. The fact that he already had children wasn't exactly the same thing as my desire to have my OWN children. As for him being a doctor, why wouldn't I be attracted to a person with a high level of education. Yes, I am attracted to people I find intellectually challenging. Perhaps, I could find this with a person who grajeated the sixth grade, but it's more likely I would find it with a professional of some kind... not unlike myself.

The Original Bankster says

The natural relationship between man and woman is exactly as that of a mother to a child - one gives the other takes.

What precisely does a man give? What precisely does a woman take? I want to make sure I completely understand you before I respond. Are you saying that under no circumstances does a woman give anything? And under no circumstances does a man take anything?

The Original Bankster says

Most likely the woman will trump up some BS about 'not loving him anymore'

Has this happened to you? You certainly wouldn't be alone. My husband was pretty shocked when it happened to him the first time around. Some people just aren't worth it. But some are. By closing yourself off, you will never know.

The Original Bankster says

Im the only one who here who even has the possibility of KNOWING what women are, thus I am the only one who might even have the possibility of loving them.

Okay, why? Why are you the only person who has the possibility of knowing women? What separates you from every other person on this board. You said something about hormones, but I'm pretty sure you have them, too... So that cannot be it. What experience makes you unique?

The Original Bankster says

Women invented this notion of 'love'.

Are you talking about love (as in deep friendship) or limerence (as in all those in-love feelings that make us feel like we're going to die without the other person)?

in a traditional environment, a woman who spends her youth pursuing some dream of a professional career, hits 27 and then takes a rich doctor away from his family and justifies it with some garbage would be considered blatantly intolerable.

I had a similar sort of pattern to Rin, but it started much earlier. I'd say roughly around 21 I knew I was not going to have a 'life partner' and the fact was I viewed this whole partnering up thing quite differently. I thought I might have a family, but found out that American women were not suitable for this task. Some thought I was homosexually inclined and I had to set them straight as not only is this not true, I don't particularly like or appreciate gay people. Im something that women cannot accept at all- I have control over my passions. Im the sort of man that women pretend dont even exist as a possibility. Once you have your sex drive under control, and you can interpret women's motivations perfectly, you rarely want to have much to do with them. This attitude is not uncommon in Asia, Russia and other parts of the world. It used to be common in the West/Europe but we abandoned these values.

turtledove says

You understand that these are things you have made up, right?

its funny how I see these same stories over and over again and every single woman has similar excuses. but this is a web forum, mostly I can see youre on here to share your view of the universe, get responses and maybe tweak it a bit.

for instance it was not uncommon for the brightest, best looking men to become monks. I know exactly why that is. Getting married was seen as mundane, and we had a better connection to spiritual matters in those days. Today we have little connection to spirituality and marriage and sex are seen as the main purpose of life. It's quite a shift in mentality.

mell says

The problem is though that if it doesn't work out he may have his career/wealth destroyed, esp.

My husband took quite a hit with his divorce from his first wife. I am well aware of just how much the court system favors women. But that doesn't change the fact that his second marriage worked out. We've been married almost 13 years, three years longer than his first. I know you guys can't believe that we're happy, but we are. We work well together. He just finished a book; I did the editing. That's the way we roll.

In eighteen months, we're done with payments to the ex-wife. And I have to admit, doing something really silly like going out that first month and buying a several thousand dollar bottle of wine and dumping it over my rose bushes could feel really good. (smiley face with devil horns).

here's a perfect example of why the end is nigh

http://www.youtube.com/embed/HSfkZhNncG4

practically proof of what estrogen does to your brain. this 'woman' is transgender. just listen to how shallow and vapid this person is and how her expectations work. not only is she incredibly shallow and selfish, but even being a transgender has not even tempered her attitude one bit and somehow she expects some male to arrive to latch onto even though she has never possessed working female reproductive organs.

it's going to collapse very soon.

turtledove says

That's the way we roll.

I dont know you come across as somewhat strained to convince us you're happy. Happy people dont get on the internet and write detailed reports of their happiness. You sound like most women I meet, they desperately want to confirm with anyone and everyone that they are happy, because they know they are not.

your wish is to waste a thousand dollar bottle of wine? wow

I was friends for a time with a very wealthy heiress, now deceased. I watched as men cravenly glommed on to her, flattered her, told her they hated their wives if she would take up with them etc. It was pretty revolting.

It was also really interesting. I came to the conclusion that given the right circumstances, men could be every bit as vain, craven, shallow and grasping as the worst gold digging woman.

turtledove says

I know you guys can't believe that we're happy, but we are.

I never said that. I take it for face value. I know happily married couples, they are in the minority from my experience, but good for them. I don't categorically exclude getting married myself, but I already have a kid to care of which takes priority ;) Personally I would like to see marriage more of something a couple earns and celebrates after going strong together for many years through good and bad times, not celebrating first and defer the true test for later. And I'd like to see spirituality brought back into that bond (which is very different from organized religion today).

Ceffer says

I watched as men cravenly glommed on to her, flattered her, told her they hated their wives if she would take up with them etc. It was pretty revolting.

Ceffer, guess what sort of women find me interesting? You'll notice that these types of women will search out a 'spiritual' man, and of course there are multitude of non-spiritual men trying to look the part.

Men CAN be, but men are oriented towards the spiritual while women are oriented towards nature. Wherever you see women participating in some kind of spiritual movement you can be sure they are debasing it. Yoga is a perfect example, these crazy women have made it virtually inaccessible for Americans. They turned it into another aerobics class.