patrick.net

A sledgehammer would have been the way that I would have fixed this.

Jeeebuz. And these fucking things are what - $150 a pop?

Didn't Google pay $3 billions for nest?

Call it Crazy says

Straw Man says

Jeeebuz. And these fucking things are what - $150 a pop?

Another example of my statement, it's 80% Marketing and 20% Product, and the sheep buy them right up!

Aren't these things supposed to be controlled from a cell phone app? Why was the dude running around instead of switching the whole fucking network from the app?

Call it Crazy says

I believe you get notification when they go off on your cell phone but can't turn them off. I've read that they have defective sensors and give false alarms which you can't turn off from the app.

So basically, what you get for 5x price over, say, interconnectable talking Kidde detectors is fucking SMS? Nice.

The video is overly dramatic and hyped. Come on. Not even on American TV is a man that stupid. I'm not a Nest fan-boy, but even the lawsuit says each unit can be disabled by dislodging the battery with a screwdriver.

That being said, it is very unlikely I will ever buy any of this overpriced junk.

Tony Fadell was the guy who made the first iPod so there's that.

Apple's doing OK in the mobile and laptop spaces but I don't understand their desktop efforts at all.

They stopped being "Apple Computer, Inc" after announcing the iPhone so that was the big hint.

Still, even though I was happy on the 68030 Macintosh I got in 1989 I secretly wanted a NeXT Station slab with the color &c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=140&v=gveTy4EmNyk

and that seems to be what the Mac side of the house is working on most, more about OS X and less about pushing the hardware itself forward.

And that's OK I guess. Great that $600 in parts from newegg made me a whole new Mac system last month.

Apple's pricing on its desktop lines is out in la-la land basically. +$200 for +8GB of DDR3 RAM. The fuck is that?

Back in 1989 and the 1990s I could happily bend over for Apple's price premium since Windows and even x86 was still pretty crappy.

But from the late 90s on the platforms have merged quite a bit (PCI, AGP, PCIe, USB) such that the value-add of Mac hardware itself has all but disappeared.

Is it a Mac? Is it a PC? As long as it runs OS X, I don't care.

Bellingham Bill says

But from the late 90s on the platforms have merged quite a bit (PCI, AGP, PCIe, USB) such that the value-add of Mac hardware itself has all but disappeared.

As I said an i7-4790K is about 40% faster than my 5 years old i7-860, which itself was about 1000% faster than the corresponding processor 5 years earlier.

Apple knows that these days new computers are not very much needed. Hence the only value they provide is fashion.

For $1300 they will now sell you a laptop slower than the previous generation and without a USB port.... but HEY, you can get it in GOLD color.

It's not even marketing over product...
It's basically look over function.

Call it Crazy says

Straw Man says

Call it Crazy says

I believe you get notification when they go off on your cell phone but can't turn them off. I've read that they have defective sensors and give false alarms which you can't turn off from the app.

So basically, what you get for 5x price over, say, interconnectable talking Kidde detectors is fucking SMS? Nice.

You can get interconnectable wireless Kidde Smoke/CO2 combo detectors that work over the Wink app for $49. each.

Isn't the Nest/Google marketing wonderful!! and, you get the malfunctioning detectors as a bonus!!

I'm not even sure I want to receive SMS from my smoke detectors. Will fire department even go out to check on the house if I call and say that I received an SMS from a smoke detector in my kitchen but I'm out of town? Probably not.

@Dan8267, nest is a Google subsidiary, not Apple, and as a result it raises different issues. As Wired reported, GOOG's $3 billion acquisition of nest may relate to the value of user information:

"Knowing What We Do When We’re Not on the Web

One area of human behavior Google has yet to colonize as successfully is what we do when we’re not directly interacting with a screen, whether on a PC or mobile device. That in theory changes with Nest.
***
This may sound creepy, but much like using Google for search, it could become the price of admission for participation in the internet of things. Every choice we make using connected devices leaves a trace. And no one is better than Google at figuring out how to turn those traces into dollars.

The nest second generation smoke & CO detector has reportedly resolved the issues that you illustrated in the OP, and the price has been reduced to $100, but the new model may come at a higher price in terms of privacy. It adds a built-in microphone, ostensibly to test the audio horn monthly. It also has an occupancy sensor. I have never before heard of a smoke detector that included a microphone and occupancy sensor.

I think the original point of the thread was to imply that if Apple made a smoke detector, it would be like the nest, but nest is not an Apple product, it's part of Google, and in fact the second generation nest has a characteristically Google issue: it's a brilliant design, but with some creepy intrusions into personal space. I'm thinking of buying it, but tempted to disassemble it and remove the microphone and occupancy sensor.

If your house is on fire, when no one is there, I suppose you can call the neighbors/fire department. But, seeing is believing, and priority one in home automation is a video camera in my book. There are some ok solutions for wireless ip cameras out there now, but no one really seems to be dominating the space. (The new Nest camera (drop cam) totally missed the mark in its offerings as well. Too many features held hostage to a monthly service. Awful.)

I'm highly interested in home automation, but it is real early in the game. Smoke detectors and thermostats ... not really high on the list of things to automate in my mind. They can come later.

Battery backup/storage is going to be key. Tesla seems to be making a move in that direction.

The Piper camera is getting close to the right space, acting as z-link hub as well as decent camera (motion, noise, temp, humidity) tracking. The thing even grabs out severe weather warnings and can push them to you. While not perfect, it's pretty darn good for what it does, and I've been initially pleased the past 3 months of owning one.

It's still real early in this space. Cannot wait to see how things evolve.

Rew says

It's still real early in this space. Cannot wait to see how things evolve.

The space has been evolving since the 1970s, when X10 launched retail home automation. It isn't "early," and at the retail level the evolution is proceeding mainly into proprietary revenue models. The hardware depends on apps, which are programmed to make money for the manufacturer; what you buy doesn't primarily work for you, it works primarily for them. As the end user, imagining yourself to be the customer because you bought the product, you don't really have control of the product. Instead, the company does; its hardware monitors your home even in ways you don't want (e.g. microphones in the smoke detectors), and its app can track you wherever you go. Maybe at the high end the buyer is the real customer, and companies design and program products to work for the high end user, but at the retail level the end user is the product and the real customers are the investors/advertisers/government/who knows.

I don't understand the Apple connection.

Oh I see, a former iPod guy left Apple, then made them.
Then it was bought by Google. Seems more GOOG problem.

I bought a V2 unit for my Dad's house, it's in the kitchen and
has never given a false signal. We're a bit worried about him in
his doddering years turning the stove on and then going out to
work in the yard. BEEP doesn't do a damn bit of good if nobody is
in the house to hear it. So it being able to SMS the children so we can
check on him and the house, is invaluable. I didn't find any other units that
could do this, and it was only ~$80 at Amazon.

Vicente says

I bought a V2 unit...I didn't find any other units that could do this, and it was only ~$80 at Amazon.

As far as I can tell, the Nest Protect 2nd Generation has always been $99+tax on amazon. That is apparently true for both versions, wired and battery operated. For around the same price, you could get First Alert One Link or Kidde and a Wink hub.

Rew said: Battery backup/storage is going to be key.
There's some interesting stuff going on in Arizona where the utilities have set up a fee structure to kill third party grid intertie systems. This is pushing the development of off the grid DC air conditioners (with batteries for post sunset operation). See Utilities and Solar Companies Fight Over Arizona’s Rooftops. The utilities better be careful if they get what they wish for...

curious2 says

As far as I can tell, the Nest Protect 2nd Generation has always been $99+tax on amazon.

Right you are. I looked at my invoice, and I had a $10 Prime Savings, and a $5 No Rush discount. So that's why I recall it as closer to $80.

Is the First Alert out yet? I couldn't find a source with supply in July when I ordered the Nest.

I'm a little hinky of First Alert products right now. I have one of their new thermostats. The screen is TERRIBLE and getting it to register a touch in the right place is a right pain. The app is the saving grace of this product. On SmartRate days I run the AC full bore in the morning which runs the meter backwards by 3 cents per KWh. Then when 2PM hits I use the app to shut it off. And it's really nice to be able to leave it off, or set for minimal housekeeping on vacation and dial it to livable while leaving the airport.

Vicente says

$10 Prime Savings, and a $5 No Rush discount. So that's why I recall it as closer to $80.

Thanks for acknowledging that, though it does shed further light on why we have disagreed about a certain insurance policy in the past. Let me help you with the math:

$99-$5=$94, plus tax = $100.

The $10 Prime Savings could presumably have been applied to anything, but if you imagined that you were about to die and had no other use for it, then you could subtract $10 and end up with $90, but not $80.

Math. Significant figures. Paying attention to what things cost. These are where we seem to disagree.

curious2 says

Thanks for acknowledging that, though it does shed further light on why we have disagreed about a certain insurance policy in the past. Let me help you with the math:

I wish I could get as excited as you about quibbling over $10 or $20. But I can't.
My Dad is one who will drive across town to save a nickel on a set of tires, sounds
like you'd get along well with him. You didn't seem to take issue with the $150 claimed higher
up just my hazy memory of it being "around $80". Whatever!

I have no idea what insurance policy you refer to.

Ironman says

The last thing you want is your smoke detectors to notify YOU.

Many alarms are false. You don't want the fire department smashing down your door every time a neighbor is illegally smoking a cigarette (or something else). Maybe if you live in a remote rural area it might be different, but in a city, you want a system that notifies you and a building manager or neighbor, not the fire department.

Vicente says

I have no idea what insurance policy you refer to.

I'll add memory to the list then. You disliked me for a while because I didn't share your enthusiasm for mandatory subsidized medical insurance. You couldn't get the math on that either.

Vicente says

Is the First Alert out yet?

Yes, they've been out for years, but they require a bridge (as Kidde uses Wink, First Alert uses a variety of others). First Alert's new product will connect directly, but cost more. I share your skepticism though of First Alert. I had a "free" warranty replacement where they insisted I pay $10 shipping; they insisted that it was "free" even though it cost me about the same as a new alarm.

Vicente says

You didn't seem to take issue with the $150 claimed higher up just my hazy memory of it being "around $80".

The first generation nest launched at an MSRP of $129, plus tax and possibly shipping. The second generation nest launched in May of this year, MSRP $99+tax.

curious2 says

You don't want the fire department smashing down your door

Our thinking was more I didn't see the point in it. I could check the house remotely, or call Dad see where he is, maybe remind HIM to look in the window and see if there's fire, or call the neighbors, or another sibling who lives down the block. I guess I should have checked into it more, but I assumed also any system that notified the fire department would be more expensive. So I didn't even check on price. Having SMS notifications sent seemed a reasonable step up from BEEP BEEP BEEP in an empty house, and from my perspective some added peace of mind for only a little more money. Hoping for no alarms, false or true.

update: Kidde has a device called RemoteLync with a free Android/iOS app. It listens for any UL approved CO or smoke detector, and alerts you or a contact list; it can call 911 if you want. So, it can connect add communications functionality to almost any existing alarm. Reviews are mixed. It launched this year officially only at Home Depot, but is now on Amazon for around $70.