patrick.net

Strategist says

Ha ha ha. Are you denying Mohammad was a pedophile, had slaves, raped, plundered, and murdered?

You mean like many other powerful leaders throughout most periods of history? That doesn't mean ISIS is representative of the Muslim world in the here and now.

Rashomon says

Strategist says

Ha ha ha. Are you denying Mohammad was a pedophile, had slaves, raped, plundered, and murdered?

You mean like many other powerful leaders throughout history? That doesn't mean ISIS is representative of the Muslim world in the here and now.

Mohammad is regarded by Muslims as the perfect Muslim. Anything and everything he did represents Islam in it's purest form. Terrorists clearly state this as a reason for their action.

Strategist says

Mohammad is regarded by Muslims as the perfect Muslim. Anything and everything he did represents Islam in it's purest form. Terrorists clearly state this as a reason for their action.

And like I said, terrorists aren't representative of the Muslim world.

Rashomon says

Strategist says

Mohammad is regarded by Muslims as the perfect Muslim. Anything and everything he did represents Islam in it's purest form. Terrorists clearly state this as a reason for their action.

And like I said, terrorists aren't representative of the Muslim world.

Why?

Is Mohammad representative of the Muslim World?

Strategist says

Why?

Oh, FFS. How many Muslims do you know? Out of those, how many have slaves, rape, commit murder etc. etc. Get the point?

His point is that Muslims are supposed to do those things because Mohammed did them.

Rashomon says

Strategist says

Why?

Oh, FFS. How many Muslims do you know? Out of those, how many have slaves, rape, commit murder etc. etc. Get the point?

I had lot's of Muslim friends, and still do. They don't have slaves. It's against the law in this country.

rando says

His point is that Muslims are supposed to do those things because Mohammed did them.

It doesn't matter what you think Muslims should or should not be doing. The issue is what they are actually doing.

Rashomon says

rando says

His point is that Muslims are supposed to do those things because Mohammed did them.

It doesn't matter what you think Muslims should or should not be doing. The issue is what they are actually doing.

And they are committing terrorism, slavery, and disgusting sharia laws.

Strategist says

I had lot's of Muslim friends, and still do. They don't have slaves. It's against the law in this country.

It's illegal in every country on the planet. And it still occurs in every country on the planet.

Actually it matters quite a lot what Muslims should be doing according to Islam.

The terrorists are extremely honest about this. It is perhaps their only good feature.

Rashomon says

It's illegal in every country on the planet. And it still occurs in every country on the planet.

It is not illegal in Islam. Islam is not a country.

Strategist says

And they are committing terrorism, slavery, and disgusting sharia laws.

How many Muslims are there? How many are members of terrorist groups?

rando says

Actually it matters quite a lot what Muslims should be doing according to Islam.

The terrorists are extremely honest about this. It is perhaps their only good feature.

Not really. Every single religious text can be manipulated in one way or another. The fact that Muslims take the Quran as the literal truth and yet the vast majority don't do what you are speaking of, rather points to additional factors at play, wouldn't you say?

Strategist says

It is not illegal in Islam. Islam is not a country.

It's not illegal according to the Bible either, so what is your point?

Like I said, most of them are good human beings exactly because they don't take Islam all that seriously.

It's the ones who really mean it who are the problem.

Rashomon says

Strategist says

And they are committing terrorism, slavery, and disgusting sharia laws.

How many Muslims are there? How many are members of terrorist groups?

Most of the 1.6 billion Muslims practice the sharia laws.

rando says

Like I said, most of them are good human beings exactly because they don't take Islam all that seriously.

It's the ones who really mean it who are the problem.

Except the vast majority of Muslims do take their religion seriously. They just don't take it the way you seem to want to paint it.

Rashomon is a muslim android.

Rashomon says

Strategist says

It is not illegal in Islam. Islam is not a country.

It's not illegal according to the Bible either, so what is your point?

Unlike the Muslims, Christians don't practice it anymore.

Strategist says

Most of the 1.6 billion Muslims practice the sharia laws.

Familiar with those, are you?

Rashomon says

Except the vast majority of Muslims do take their religion seriously. They just don't take it the way you seem to want to paint it.

It's not about how I want to paint it. Islam is pretty damn clear, and pretty fucking violent, an order of magnitude beyond any other other religion.

Strategist says

Unlike the Muslims, Christians don't practice it anymore.

You're joking right?

Rashomon says

Except the vast majority of Muslims do take their religion seriously.

That's the problem. We want Muslims to give up violence, sharia laws, and human rights abuses. What's wrong with that?

You could make a decent argument that fundamentalist Jews are nearly as bad as Muslims in their willingness to implement their religious law literally.

But Christianity is more ambiguous. Clearly the old laws do not apply to Christians. They eat pork, for example. Jesus' main rule was "love your neighbor as yourself", and deliberately flouted the old law by eating without washing his hands to make a point, for example.

Strategist says

That's the problem. We want Muslims to give up violence, sharia laws, and human rights abuses. What's wrong with that?

There's nothing wrong with that (though plenty of aspects of sharia law are actually pretty innocuous). You seem to think that the Quran is the driving force of what has happened in the last 30+ years. It's rather more complex than that, and the West has been front and centre in helping to create the current situation.

Rashomon says

West has been front and centre in helping to create the current situation.

I disagree.

The internet has been front and center in helping to create the current situation.

Now global recruitment for jihad is very easy. Used to be a lot harder.

And how do you explain the Muslim attacks on all the non-Western countries?

Rashomon says

Strategist says

That's the problem. We want Muslims to give up violence, sharia laws, and human rights abuses. What's wrong with that?

There's nothing wrong with that (though plenty of aspects of sharia law are actually pretty innocuous). You seem to think that the Quran is the driving force of what has happened in the last 30+ years. It's rather more complex than that, and the West has been front and centre in helping to create the current situation.

The Koran has been the driving force for the last 1400 years. The West did nothing wrong. We believe in equal rights, freedoms, and democracy. Compare that to the Sharia laws, and what the perfect Muslim, Mohammad believed in.

Mrs Wonderful says

Rashomon is a muslim android.

He is a moderate, peaceful Muslim. Unfortunately, he has been brainwashed by Islam.

rando says

But Christianity is more ambiguous. Clearly the old laws do not apply to Christians. They eat pork, for example. Jesus' main rule was "love your neighbor as yourself", and deliberately flouted the old law by eating without washing his hands to make a point, for example.

Post enlightenment. Christianity was not exactly sweetness and light before then, which rather points to the fact that any and all religious texts can be misused by people who want to manipulate others to do their biding.

Strategist says

He is a moderate, peaceful Muslim. Unfortunately, he has been brainwashed by Islam.

Yeah, except I'm an atheist.

Rashomon says

Strategist says

He is a moderate, peaceful Muslim. Unfortunately, he has been brainwashed by Islam.

Yeah, except I'm an atheist.

Thank God. So ami I. Why would an atheist go to such lengths to support the actions of Mohammad the Perfect Muslim?

Strategist says

The Koran has been the driving force for the last 1400 years. The West did nothing wrong. We believe in equal rights, freedoms, and democracy. Compare that to the Sharia laws, and what the perfect Muslim, Mohammad believed in.

That is not the history of the West. That is the claims it makes now whilst simultaneously exerting its power over the rest of the world.

Strategist says

Thank God. So ami I. Why would an atheist go to such lengths to support the actions of Mohammad the Perfect Muslim?

I'm not defending anything. I'm pointing out the problems with the stupidly one-sided and wilfully ignorant views that you and others regularly peddle on this site. You are trying to boil down a massively complex situation to the most simplistic of narratives. It doesn't help move things forward.

Rashomon says

Strategist says

The Koran has been the driving force for the last 1400 years. The West did nothing wrong. We believe in equal rights, freedoms, and democracy. Compare that to the Sharia laws, and what the perfect Muslim, Mohammad believed in.

That is not the history of the West. That is the claims it makes now whilst simultaneously exerting its power over the rest of the world.

Nothing wrong with exerting your power if it's for the common good. Democracy is the future of the world. When was the last time you saw a democracy attack another democracy? Communists attack each other, religions attack each other, but not democracies. The path to peace lies through the roads of democracy.

Rashomon says

Strategist says

Thank God. So ami I. Why would an atheist go to such lengths to support the actions of Mohammad the Perfect Muslim?

I'm not defending anything. I'm pointing out the problems with the stupidly one-sided and wilfully ignorant views that you and others regularly peddle on this site. You are trying to boil down a massively complex situation to the most simplistic of narratives. It doesn't help move things forward.

Peace is not complex. Violent people make it complex. If all Muslims were Buddhists, we would not have any problems at all.
As an atheist you should be convincing Muslims to be peaceful, not trying to convince us that Islam is peaceful, when all we see is Islamic violence.

Strategist says

If all Muslims were Buddhists, we would not have any problems at all.

Nonsense. What do you think's been happening in Myanmar? Religion isn't the problem. People and circumstances are.
Strategist says

As an atheist you should be convincing Muslims to be peaceful, not trying to convince us that Islam is peaceful, when all we see is Islamic violence.

Clearly I'm not going to convince you of anything. Religion is the current tool of those trying to wheel power and influence. If that wasn't to hand, it would be something else.

Rashomon says

Strategist says

If all Muslims were Buddhists, we would not have any problems at all.

Nonsense. What do you think's been happening in Myanmar? Religion isn't the problem. People and circumstances are.

How can you as an atheist state religion is not a problem? Are you sure you are an atheist?
Let me ask you a question....Do you think Mohammad the Perfect Muslim was a moral person?
If you are an atheist, you will not have a problem answering that.

Strategist says

Nothing wrong with exerting your power if it's for the common good. Democracy is the future of the world. When was the last time you saw a democracy attack another democracy? Communists attack each other, religions attack each other, but not democracies. The path to peace lies through the roads of democracy.

No, it doesn't. There's nothing to democracy that makes it intrinsically peaceful. Peace has been maintained through a labyrinthian set of apparatus to try and keep the powers in check. That doesn't mean it's always going to be so. The cracks have long since started appearing. Just look at all those crowing about Brexit and wanting the break up of the EU on here. That very organisation has contributed greatly to a period of peace in one of the most unstable regions in the world historically. Who's to say such instability won't return? In fact, it's almost a guarantee once global warming destroys society as we currently know it.

Strategist says

How can you as an atheist state religion is not a problem? Are you sure you are an atheist?

Because it's clearly people and circumstances that are the real problems. Look at the Germans now. Look at them in the 1930s and 40s. People are capable of doing pretty much anything imaginable with or without any particular religion supposedly guiding them. We are apes. Nothing more, nothing less. We are more than capable of the basest of actions given the right (wrong) circumstances.